The Trend Toward Atheism

[Vap841]

In my experience it really depends on the people in the group. We used to have what they called LifeGroups that were a tight-knit fellowship. With the right mix of people, you could talk about anything. They really cared about each other and were pretty open to real-life situations and questions/discussion. But you are right. In an worship service or Sunday AM format, things are pretty surface level.

Do you attend anything now?

No but I might start attending Eastern Orthodox soon, just as an experiment. I’m talking about questions, but the truth is that my issue is less about questions and more about a lack of having an emotional pulse to any of it lol, I’m wondering if church could possibly jumpstart something. I have completely over intellectualized everything about God, and having had a recent Aha moment I’m starting to realize that Aha moments never do anything to me beyond just giving me a new intellectual thought process. I’m in need of a pulse lol.

 

[Vap841]

I'm in my mid 60s now and grew up in the Protestant Evangelical church. So, I know how to get along with these people.

And I am not seeking to make my voice heard, or to change them. The questionable things I am up to lately have only come about in the last two or three years. So, I look at them as being like me a few years back. So, I cut them plenty of slack.

And I don;'t have any questions for them. I know what the answers would be, so why even ask? I don't even consider them to be a source for such. So, why would I ask them?

Can I ask you what the difference is between Saint Steven, and Saint Steven three years ago? Like were there any specific mental epiphanies that you had that pulled you away from being the 2018 Saint Steven?

 

[Saint Steven]

No but I might start attending Eastern Orthodox soon, just as an experiment. I’m talking about questions, but the truth is that my issue is less about questions and more about a lack of having an emotional pulse to any of it lol, I’m wondering if church could possibly jumpstart something. I have completely over intellectualized everything about God, and having had a recent Aha moment I’m starting to realize that Aha moments never do anything to me beyond just giving me a new intellectual thought process. I’m in need of a pulse lol.

The knowing is good. And it will continue as you pursue, not just to understand the facts, but to know the person of God. I think that is where the emotional connection happens. A realization of the indwelling Spirit. (Romans 8:9)

I make a point of asking Father God to walk with me during my day. Which initiates a dialog that follows me wherever I go during the day. Like an open channel of communication. (pray without ceasing)

 

[Saint Steven]

Can I ask you what the difference is between Saint Steven, and Saint Steven three years ago? Like were there any specific mental epiphanies that you had that pulled you away from being the 2018 Saint Steven?

That's a great question. Thanks.

To quickly summarize, I would say discoveries in a couple of areas. Ultimate Redemption (UR) as an alternative doctrine of the final judgement. (as opposed to a forever burning hell) And some more progressive views/questions concerning the origins/purpose of the Bible.

In addition to being raised Evangelical Protestant, I have spent the last several decades in a Pentecostal church denomination. (AG)

As a side note, UR (Universalism) actually came from the EO side of the early church. (they had a better grasp of the Greek) Just sayin'. Citation below.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

 

[Hmm]

To quickly summarize, I would say discoveries in a couple of areas. Ultimate Redemption (UR) as an alternative doctrine of the final judgement. (as opposed to a forever burning hell)

Same for me and many others. It seems the interest in Christian Universalism has significantly increases in the last 20 years and this fact can't be unrelated to the prevalence of the Internet over a similar period. There aren't any universalist churches to my knowledge, because of the dubious claim that it's heretical, so if it wasn't for the Internet I would never have learnt about it or realised that it's had a constant presence in church history from the beginning and has a lot of support amongst theologians and clergy - who are increasing "coming out" as it becomes more popular and they are less likely to lose their jobs, as well as the secular public buying universalist (it's a broad spectrum) books such as Love Wins because they know more than most Christians it seems, that eternal conscious torment is obviously not compatible with a loving God. When the churches have the wisdom and boldness to catch up with them, they will find their attendance stops declining and actually starts to increase. I suspect that's still a long way off.

 

[Vap841]

I make a point of asking Father God to walk with me during my day. Which initiates a dialog that follows me wherever I go during the day. Like an open channel of communication. (pray without ceasing)

This could be a good example of the opposite of what I am. I notice how a lot of Christians are basking in something positive, they seem to “Take it with them” as they go about their day. For me it’s more like out of sight out of mind, if I’m reading something about Christianity I can have some positive feelings as I’m reading it, but after the book closes any feel good sensations get closed along with the book.

I can’t even say “Taking it with you” is a foreign concept to me, in the past I have had such experiences, although rarely. Way more common for me in the past was having experiences when I was especially bothered by something. So mostly my experience with God has been similar to making the rare ER visit when something is wrong. But lately I’ve been thinking about how I could be missing out on those floating on air feelings. Look I just wanna float on air every moment of my life, is that so much to ask?? Lol

 

[Vap841]

That's a great question. Thanks.

To quickly summarize, I would say discoveries in a couple of areas. Ultimate Redemption (UR) as an alternative doctrine of the final judgement. (as opposed to a forever burning hell) And some more progressive views/questions concerning the origins/purpose of the Bible.

In addition to being raised Evangelical Protestant, I have spent the last several decades in a Pentecostal church denomination. (AG)

As a side note, UR (Universalism) actually came from the EO side of the early church. (they had a better grasp of the Greek) Just sayin'. Citation below.

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96
German theologian- Philip Schaff, Editor:

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

Ok I see. Yeah I most definitely wouldn’t fit any standard mold of these things either. I’m not a fan of PURE battles of Biblical texts vs Biblical texts where the dispute acts like basic logic doesn’t even have a part to play in which interpretation makes sense. It amazes me how a lot of people could act like the incoherence itself of a just & fair & loving & merciful God eternally maintaining people in Hell with no chance of escape isn’t itself a major argument that pushes you towards siding with interpretations that are not eternal conscious Hell. I mean aren’t we supposed to be using our logical tools for every conclusion that we make?

 

[Saint Steven]

Ok I see. Yeah I most definitely wouldn’t fit any standard mold of these things either. I’m not a fan of PURE battles of Biblical texts vs Biblical texts where the dispute acts like basic logic doesn’t even have a part to play in which interpretation makes sense. It amazes me how a lot of people could act like the incoherence itself of a just & fair & loving & merciful God eternally maintaining people in Hell with no chance of escape isn’t itself a major argument that pushes you towards siding with interpretations that are not eternal conscious Hell. I mean aren’t we supposed to be using our logical tools for every conclusion that we make?

Right.
Jesus taught us to love our enemies. This is godly behavior. Is it unreasonable to think God would hold himself to the same standard? Or are his standards lower than what he expects from us?

Matthew 5:43-48 NRSV
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be children of your Father in heaven; for he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the righteous and on the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 And if you greet only your brothers and sisters, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[Clare73]

This could be a good example of the opposite of what I am. I notice how a lot of Christians are basking in something positive, they seem to “Take it with them” as they go about their day. For me it’s more like out of sight out of mind, if I’m reading something about Christianity I can have some positive feelings as I’m reading it, but after the book closes any feel good sensations get closed along with the book.

I can’t even say “Taking it with you” is a foreign concept to me, in the past I have had such experiences, although rarely. Way more common for me in the past was having experiences when I was especially bothered by something. So mostly my experience with God has been similar to making the rare ER visit when something is wrong. But lately I’ve been thinking about how I could be missing out on those floating on air feelings. Look I just wanna float on air every moment of my life, is that so much to ask?? Lol

You are talking about a spiritual reality that is the result of the new birth. . .which makes both God and Jesus Christ personally real and present to you.

The major dynamic becomes a real trust in and dependance on God, rather than depending on one's
own devices (knowledge, control), and a submission to his word in the Scriptures, where he grows and matures one.