The Tower of Babel

[katerinah1947]

It was more than just hanging around together instead of spreading out, though that, too.
Genesis 11:4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

They were wanting to reach to the heavens with something they had made---something so high, another flood would not destroy them---which essentially they were not believing His promise to not destroy the earth again with a flood. Yes, they were working together--but to what end---to make a name for themselves, to glorify themselves. They were working together apart from God and that, if they continued, would have ended up with them being like the people before the flood. Doing only what they wanted which ended up only evil. Spreading out, each with their own language made them learn to work together to survive and take care of each other, not work together to be glorifying themselves and spending their time trying to thwart the will of God. They were self-absorbed.
Personally, and nothing in the bible states this, I believe He separated them into groups that already had similarities in appearance. We tend to gravitate to others "like us", and whatever those similarities were, just became more pronounced over time by their "segregation". There is nothing in the bible that prohibits Adam and Eve having been given DNA different from ours and that the joining of the 2 genetic codes brought into being all the different variations in their offspring that would produce the various races., which was passed on down by Noah and his family.

Hi,

I seriously like your reply.

LOVE,

 

[katerinah1947]

There's a lot of truth in here, but a lot of speculation as well. Trying to avoid a flood is speculation, and honestly, not even a practical way of avoiding a flood. However, I can see the idea that they were trying to make a name for themselves instead of glorifying God as a problem in God's eyes.

The other part, about working together because they were separated seems unnecessary, since the problem at hand was them working together. It would seem, by this explanation, that God wanted them to rely on Him, and if he hadn't done what he did, then they wouldn't need to rely on Him. There's nothing inherently sinful about trying to build a big city and work together. If there was some other motivation behind it, then a different action would have more specifically targeted that problem instead of creating conflict. That isn't to say that I know better than God on how to deal with the situation, it is to say that we should interpret the actions we read about in a way that directly relates to what God is reacting to. God's actions caused it to be harder for us to work together, so God had a problem with us working together.

Hi,

If the tower went to the heavens, meaning high up, some people might be able to escape another flood, that God promised would neve ever happen again.

LOVE,

 

[Moral Orel]

If the tower went to the heavens, meaning high up, some people might be able to escape another flood, that God promised would neve ever happen again.

By "high up" it would have to be taller than the highest mountain, or built on the tallest mountain... A strong navy would be a more appropriate defense against another flood. That would have a direct connection between the fear and the solution. A tower though? In a round a bout way you could think that a tower was a defense against a flood, but no where in the text does it mention this as the motivation for the tower so any statement thereof is purely speculation.

 

[katerinah1947]

By "high up" it would have to be taller than the highest mountain, or built on the tallest mountain... A strong navy would be a more appropriate defense against another flood. That would have a direct connection between the fear and the solution. A tower though? In a round a bout way you could think that a tower was a defense against a flood, but no where in the text does it mention this as the motivation for the tower so any statement thereof is purely speculation.

Hi,

Yes. There is no mention of that motivation.

LOVE,

 

[AV1611VET]

I see no reason to think technological advances worry God, nor the speed of developing them.

Nope ... not in the least.

He simply confounded their language and that ended that.

It increases their knowledge.

I think I can safely say that if God were to come down here and change all our languages to about seven different new ones that never before existed, technology would come to a screeching halt for a few decades until all seven groups learned each other's language.

In fact, He wouldn't even have to go that far.

All He would have to do is change all our languages to one: Klingon; and that would put an end to a lot of technological advancements.

 

[radhead]

Amazing. Some people here would have us believing that racism is a good, godly thing. I don't understand religious people anymore.

 

[AV1611VET]

Amazing. Some people here would have us believing that racism is a good, godly thing. I don't understand religious people anymore.

Didn't Darwin write, The Preservation of Favoured Races?

 

[katerinah1947]

Nope ... not in the least.

He simply confounded their language and that ended that.
I think I can safely say that if God were to come down here and change all our languages to about seven different new ones that never before existed, technology would come to a screeching halt for a few decades until all seven groups learned each other's language.

In fact, He wouldn't even have to go that far.

All He would have to do is change all our languages to one: Klingon; and that would put an end to a lot of technological advancements.

Hi,

Expand these words and the meaning of them in totality to you, of yours please:

He simply confounded their language and that ended that.

I say the above with a furrowed brow,

Baptist Boy, (a term of respect and admiration from me, in areas where Baptist's are very interesting), @AV1611VET, are you saying that Technology before technology is due, like using faith when faith is not due, is wrong, and That Too is what God did?

Like Faith, are you saying, when Faith in God is our only tool left, then we are to use it, but not until and not unless?

Are you also saying, they at Babylon did not trust in God also?

LOVE,

 

[ChetSinger]

First I'll ask if it is mentioned elsewhere in The Bible. Is there more about the tower elsewhere with any other information at all?

Afaik the tower is mentioned only there. The repercussions are all over the OT, though, because that event was the origin of "the nations".

Is there anything that Christians or Jews learn from this story? Is it just a story to explain where all the languages came from?

It is history, a recounting of the event that gave birth to the nations and their languages. Early Jewish sources expand on it, including Josephus' Antiquties and the Aramaic Targums.

It seems to have negative connotations though. Is this the start of racism? I know that sounds bad, but the story clearly says that people were working together as one people. Afterwords they were scattered around the world and speaking different languages. Is that not the beginning of other races in the world? It's certainly more significant than different nations. If so, then is God (at this point in history, perhaps he changes things later) advocating racism because he doesn't want us to all work together?

The OT has no concept of what we now call "race". Instead, there were seventy original "nations", each given a language and named after one of the individuals in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10.

 

[radhead]

Didn't Darwin write, The Preservation of Favoured Races?

Racism was the norm during that time I guess. But you can't say that atheists are anywhere near as racist as religious people. I can only imagine what was being preached in Bible believing churches at the same time.

 

[Moral Orel]

The OT has no concept of what we now call "race". Instead, there were seventy original "nations", each given a language and named after one of the individuals in the Table of Nations in Genesis 10.

I pointed out to someone else who said the same thing that this isn't really true. When you think of racism the first thing that comes to mind is black v white, and skin color in general. But we have had, and still have, plenty of racism just among whites. Think of the racial slurs you know for Italian, Irish, Polish, and French people. Different nations with different languages is exactly where people begin to hate each other for no good reason.

 

[ChetSinger]

I pointed out to someone else who said the same thing that this isn't really true. When you think of racism the first thing that comes to mind is black v white, and skin color in general. But we have had, and still have, plenty of racism just among whites. Think of the racial slurs you know for Italian, Irish, Polish, and French people. Different nations with different languages is exactly where people begin to hate each other for no good reason.

Imo, the event at Babel is truly the origin of our division into national groups, and God did force that to occur. But I think the way we often disparage one another is our own choice. I don't think God forces us to do that.

And I also believe those divisions ceased to have any meaning after the resurrection of Christ. In Christ, our new identity as his children overrides our original national identities. As Paul said: "Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.".

 

[Moral Orel]

Imo, the event at Babel is truly the origin of our division into national groups, and God did force that to occur. But I think the way we often disparage one another is our own choice. I don't think God forces us to do that.

True, I'm not trying to take our responsibility from us when we act in a racist manner. I would never suggest that any sane individual is not responsible for his own actions. But that doesn't mean that there is never an outside source exerting force on our actions. So the question isn't about what we chose to do as a result of God's actions, it is what did God want our actions to be as a result of His actions. And I would say that he wanted us to not get along so well, according to the story.

And I also believe those divisions ceased to have any meaning after the resurrection of Christ. In Christ, our new identity as his children overrides our original national identities. As Paul said: "Here there is not Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free; but Christ is all, and in all.".

Again, true. But isn't it too late for that? In all practicality, there's no ending racism completely. Even though this is likely what God wants Christians to strive for, there's no turning back for the world from the road that we've been on for 3000 years. Since not every person is going to be a Christian, and let's face it, not everyone who claims to be a Christian is not going to be a racist, the divisiveness that God started will never go away completely.

 

[Xalith]

Something I think ought to be mentioned that I didn't see anybody mention it yet:

Babylon in the Bible is always referred to, as a place of "Spiritual Fornication", or more simply, "idolatry". The act of replacing God in your life with something else, be it a false idol, or material wealth, or some hobby that you greatly enjoy doing. God doesn't want to remove all enjoyment and fun out of our lives, however, He wants to be the center of our lives. We can have entertainment, but they are to never take priority over Him in any way, shape, form, or manner.

Well, back to the Babylonians, ever heard of the Mazzaroth? The Jewish peoples had some lore concerning the constellations of the stars, and most of it has been lost in time, but the little that does remain, seems to tell a story about Christ. Well, that's interesting, because the Mazzaroth pre-dates Christ by a longshot.

It has been theorized that the Babylonians copied the Mazzaroth and twisted it into what we call the Zodiac and then turned into a tool of demons (Astrology, Divination, etc).

They weren't building a physical tower to get to the sky, they were actually building a planetarium and setting up a false Mazzaroth and inventing strange idols and false gods and spreading these false teachings amongst all of the peoples. If God hadn't done what He did, this poison would have spread throughout all of the people and He would have been forced to wipe them out again. But yet He couldn't, because he promised Noah that he would never again destroy the world with water, and He would obviously know that the other destruction (the one by Fire in prophecy) wasn't supposed to happen yet.

He knew that He had to stop this, and stop it fast, so He confounded their languages, and that stopped it in their tracks before it spread too far. Babylon remained as a city, but a lot of the peoples scattered when they could no longer understand each other, and thus slowed down the spreading of lies and false worship.

Everytime Babylon is mentioned in the Bible (especially in Revelation and some other places, like the prophets) after it was conquered and destroyed/turned into a new kingdom, it is talking about spiritual Babylon, which is the origin and epicenter of false worship and spiritual fornication. It is used as an allegory for man's tendency to work to find God, rather than allowing God to reveal Himself like He wants to do, and for man's tendency to try to replace God with anything else that strikes their fancy.

Look around you at the industrialized and technological world today. Churches are slowly losing members, less and less people care about God and Christ. There are people professing Him that only go to Church once a week, or even twice a year (Chreasters, I think they're called, a portmanteau of Christmas and Easter). They've replaced God with media, entertainment, and mammon (the endless pursuit of money and/or material wealth). And that's to say nothing about the false religions, or the growing atheism.

There's a reason why in Revelation, Christians are told to "Come out of Babylon". People scratch their heads going "Is Babylon going to be rebuilt?" The answer is most likely, that it refers to a Spiritual Babylon. Revelation is actually asking us to come out of our lust for material wealth, media, and entertainment, to put these things aside and come to God. I don't believe that there should be absolutely no entertainment at all, but yet... when you got people who play games or watch TV for 4, 6, 8+ hours a day but yet can't spend not even one hour with God, either the Bible, worship music, praying, etc, well... that's what He means by "Come out of Babylon".

 

[AV1611VET]

Well, back to the Babylonians, ever heard of the Mazzaroth? The Jewish peoples had some lore concerning the constellations of the stars, and most of it has been lost in time, but the little that does remain, seems to tell a story about Christ. Well, that's interesting, because the Mazzaroth pre-dates Christ by a longshot.

Did you ever read a book called, God's Voice in the Stars, by Ken Fleming?

 

[Xalith]

Did you ever read a book called, God's Voice in the Stars, by Ken Fleming?

Read, no. Heard of it, yes.

 

[AV1611VET]

Read, no. Heard of it, yes.

It's a great read!

One of my favorite examples is why the sky went dark for three hours at the Crucifixion.

Looking up into the dark sky, they saw the constellation Aries.

The Greeks called Aries "the Ram," but the Hebrews knew Aries as "the Lamb of God [slain from the foundation of the world]."

 

[Xalith]

It's a great read!

One of my favorite examples is why the sky went dark for three hours at the Crucifixion.

Looking up into the dark sky, they saw the constellation Aries.

That makes a nice little point, that those who want to find God, will. They do so by starting with the Bible, and then looking around them and comparing stuff they see to what they read in the Bible. Lots and lots of tidbits God left scattered throughout society, like this book you mentioned and others I've heard of.

However, those who try to disprove God.... well, like I've said in other places, nobody has, and nobody ever will.

The Greeks called Aries "the Ram," but the Hebrews knew Aries as "the Lamb of God [slain from the foundation of the world]."

At least, the few Hebrews that still remembered the old ways. From the things that Jesus said and did in the gospels, it sounded like the great majority of the Jews had forgotten most of what they were taught by Moses in the first place..

 

[katerinah1947]

That makes a nice little point, that those who want to find God, will. They do so by starting with the Bible, and then looking around them and comparing stuff they see to what they read in the Bible. Lots and lots of tidbits God left scattered throughout society, like this book you mentioned and others I've heard of.

However, those who try to disprove God.... well, like I've said in other places, nobody has, and nobody ever will.



At least, the few Hebrews that still remembered the old ways. From the things that Jesus said and did in the gospels, it sounded like the great majority of the Jews had forgotten most of what they were taught by Moses in the first place..

XALITH!!!!!!!!

Hi,

You said:

That makes a nice little point, that those who want to find God, will. They do so by starting with the Bible, and then looking around them and comparing stuff they see to what they read in the Bible. Lots and lots of tidbits God left scattered throughout society.....

That seems precisely correct at some point.

The only variation, for me, was all you said was true, when I had a reason to critically look at That Book, but, I still can never say, that God did not cause me to look for Him, in That way.

Your words pleased and amazed me. They are succinct.

LOVE,

 

[radhead]

Even though we can't agree on what it means, we all agree that it's God's word. Right?

God is not racist! He just separated the people into races. It makes sense! You don't have to call it racism or something bad if you know that God sanctioned it. This means that it can be a good and holy thing to separate ourselves from people not like us.

Men didn't write the Bible. God did! Or, I mean that he inspired the words of the Bible. So we can trust that it's His word because it SAYS that it's God's word!