The Tithe

[2Timothy2:15]

The two aren't related.
You said that the practice of wearing expensive clothing was from man; I just showed you that God initiated it in the OT.

Personally it doesn't bother me if the clergy wear robes or not, though it can help to give an air of authority and reverence, (not for them, for the worship of God). I also don't think that buildings are that important. But for some, these things are very important and if it helps them to worship God and have a greater sense of his presence, great; I'm not going to argue.
People CAN get too fixated on these things, but none of them are anti Scripture; that's the point.

Obviously the context of what I was talking about was in response to another poster talking about being expected to wear suits. So in context it is the NT church. I am aware of how priests dressed. I am also aware of how corrupt they became.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Maybe. But they got paid in money in those days too - otherwise Zacchaeus wouldn't have been able to collect money for taxes, Judas wouldn't have been described as keeper of the money purse and Jesus wouldn't have been able to ask whose image was on a coin.



How many people do you know who get paid today in food? Do you?
Have you ever tried to pay your tax bill, mortgage, rates or do any shopping at all by trading food? Possibly in the country - 6 eggs for some butter, or whatever. But try handing over some caviar for a mobile phone and see how far you get.
And if those who serve us, counsellors, teachers, undertakers, doctors and many others, get paid, then why on earth shouldn't clergy - who baptise, teach and confirm our kids, marry our friends and relatives, visit the sick, bury the dead and teach us spiritually?

Of course there was money back then. I am not sure if you really think I was not aware of that.

Also, a pastor was never suppose to be a paid job, that is my point. Based on scripture, when the apostles or anyone stayed and taught they were expected to be fed but this is not suppose to be their source of income. Like Paul and Barnabas worked to provide for themselves..I am not sure if your pastor or any pastor can claim to be greater than either Paul or Barnabas that they can derive 100% of their income from the body of Christ.

You need to pay someone to baptize? I am sorry but that is not a good argument and not based on scripture at all. I will baptize for free. Freely received, freely given

Doing a good study of what the tithe was and it's purpose is a good idea and I think it helps. Also, doing a study and looking for scriptures to support what you are saying about paid ministers is another good idea. Earlier I asked for you to provide scripture chapter and verse to support your points. I am hearing mainly conjecture and the same old lines that are taught in churches by those who want to justify their paychecks.

 

[Strong in Him]

Of course there was money back then. I am not sure if you really think I was not aware of that.

I'm sure you are. But from your post it sounded as if you were saying that if you feed a Pastor - have him/her round for a meal or deliver food regularly - that should be their wages. I'm saying that there's more to life than that; a pastor has to pay bills, buy clothes etc, and for that, they need money - i.e a wage.

Also, a pastor was never suppose to be a paid job, that is my point.

I don't know what was originally intended, but some churches now are massively bigger than they were then, and there is much to do in looking after people's spiritual welfare, teaching, planning for mission, visiting the sick - and also in representing the people of God in the community. Clergy become chaplains, take school assemblies etc.

You need to pay someone to baptize? I am sorry but that is not a good argument and not based on scripture at all. I will baptize for free.

Baptism is only part of a Pastor/Ministers job, as I'm sure you know. I don't know why you have singled this out from all the examples I gave.

I wrote a long answer to your post, but then I lost internet connection and most of it disappeared.

But briefly, I said right from the start that there were no Scriptures, or I couldn't find any, to support a Minister being paid by the church to do what he/she does - but neither, I believe, have you supplied any to show that clergy HAVE to do what Paul did, work to support themselves and do "church work" in their spare time. Churches today are bigger than in Paul's day and the role of clergy has changed. Maybe Paul healed all the sick and raised the dead, or left other people to do it and comfort the relatives. Maybe he left other people to worry about the upkeep of the synagogues, taxes and maintenance of their homes and providing meals and hospitality for church members and travelling evangelists. Maybe he did live by faith - though I've no doubt that his needs were met by people who worked hard and earned decent money. But today, it would be unrealistic for a Minister/Pastor to do all that is expected of them - by the church and other people - in their spare time, and still have a full time job. Paul wasn't married; many clergy today are, and have children.

 

[tturt]

"Now to the one who works, his wages are not credited as a gift, but as an obligation." Rom 4:4

How to treat animals and people "For Scripture says, · “Do not muzzle an ox that is treading out the grain,” and, “Worthy is the worker of his wage.” I Tim 5:18

Folks supported
Luke 8: 1 - which ministered unto him of their substance."

 

[2Timothy2:15]

a pastor has to pay bills, buy clothes etc, and for that, they need money - i.e a wage.

That is why he should have a job, just like Paul.

1 Corinthians 9 18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Acts 18
18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.


Acts 20
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

34 Yea, ye yourselves know, that these hands have ministered unto my necessities, and to them that were with me.

35 I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

36 And when he had thus spoken, he kneeled down, and prayed with them all.

 

[2Timothy2:15]

Baptism is only part of a Pastor/Ministers job, as I'm sure you know. I don't know why you have singled this out from all the examples I gave

I singled that out because it is absurd anyone would think they have the right to charge anyone to be baptized.

 

[Strong in Him]

That is why he should have a job, just like Paul.

Giving pastoral care to a congregation, preaching, teaching the faith, administering sacraments/rites, sorting out property, finances, DBS checks for various staff, etc IS a job - a job that can't be done without a calling from God, but still, a job.

1 Corinthians 9 18 What is my reward then? Verily that, when I preach the gospel, I may make the gospel of Christ without charge, that I abuse not my power in the gospel.

Acts 18
18 After these things Paul departed from Athens, and came to Corinth;

2 And found a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome and came unto them.

3 And because he was of the same craft, he abode with them, and wrought: for by their occupation they were tentmakers.

Acts 20
33 I have coveted no man's silver, or gold, or apparel.

Sorry, but either you don't understand the point I've been making about church work, and ministry, today being very different from Paul's day, or you're trying to ignore it.

 

[Strong in Him]

I singled that out because it is absurd anyone would think they have the right to charge anyone to be baptized.

It's part of the job, along with pastoral care, funerals - for Christians, and non Christians - looking after the buildings, parish and so on.

I'm a lay preacher; I can baptise and I wouldn't charge.

 

[Big Drew]

I think the argument of whether or not a minister should be compensated by the church comes down to the size of the congregation a lot of times...I've been in a church with a bi-vocational pastor...and he didn't accept any money from the church then...but, we only had about 30 members in the congregation. As the church grew, he had to make a decision, and he decided to go full time in the ministry once the membership grew to about 75. When there's only a handful of people the odds are low that you'll be getting a call, or it's easy to tell someone, Okay I'll be there when I get off work at 5...but if you have a larger congregation you're going to spend a lot of one on one time with them, which cuts into time where you can be doing other labor.

 

[NeedyFollower]

It's part of the job, along with pastoral care, funerals - for Christians, and non Christians - looking after the buildings, parish and so on.

I'm a lay preacher; I can baptise and I wouldn't charge.

Whoever said that " It is their job" has hit the nail on the head . This is the problem ...we are paying someone to be our christian for us so we can go make money . And a " pastor " in the early church was different than the current role we call pastor /preacher ..it has evolved into a paid evangelist , administrator , person to the visit the sick , conduct marriages , etc. ...Look again to the scriptures ..the whole reason that the early apostles appointed deacons was to serve the needy so they could be busy in prayer and in the Word. Look in Corinthians where Paul said , if man claim to be prophetic or spiritual , let him acknowlege that the words I write to you are commandments of the Lord ...and Paul had just indictaed that the prophets ( or preachers should speak two or three at a time . ) They were not paid MONEY ...that would have been considered being greedy for filthy lucre. We are the priesthood.

 

[Meowzltov]

The conflicts I'm aware of on this issue are around whether tithing is a direct command or not.

It IS a direct command, but to the Children of Israel. The Gentile church is to be inspired by this, but is not under this covenant. The 10% tithe was not only to support the religious leaders, but also the poor and downtrodden, such as widows, orphans, and travelers new to the town. The Hebrew word is Tzedakah, which is usually translated charity, but the root word is Tzedek or justice/righteousness, and so it is more appropriately translated as social justice, since it was more like a tax that benefited the poor. The idea was that our goods and money are not our own -- they belong to God. A portion of our goods and money God entrusts to us on behalf of the poor, and it is our JOB to give it away.