The time when I nearly fell to Buddhism.

NeedyFollower · Aug 25, 2019

ananda said:
I am not instinctively aware that the prophecies of Christian scripture are being fulfilled. I do see vague predictions which a vast number of interpreters have applied to different situations in their own days over the centuries, so much so that it is virtually impossible for me to take any of them seriously.

Indeed, I have seen much truth and wisdom.

You may take the great falling away seriously . The apostasy . It is not vague but very clear and should be obvious except one's eyes be closed . And wake up to the truth all around you quickly . You probably followed a dead Christianity all of your life . Rituals . Traditions , etc.
Did Buddhism or any religious writing predict that it's own truths would be forsaken one day prior to the end of all things ? That it would be replaced by a "form" of religion . This mirrors Israel's own apostacy when it assimilated and Jerusalem was consequently destroyed . ( Jerusalem's ruin and captivity to Babylon is a historical fact . )
A child should be able to see that this is true and it needs no interpretation . Things are what they are . " And for this cause God shall send a strong delusion that they shall believe a lie because they received not a love for the truth . "
I guess a leaning tree in a forest of leaning trees has no concept that it is leaning nor that anything is amiss . When we deny God , it makes us incapable of true humility for we look to our own selves for righteousness and worth . Many good deeds and right thoughts ...we are in essence still eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil . Then we become carrier's of eternal death to others by denying life. Paul said not many wise according to the flesh can get this for the cross of Christ is foolish to them . But God 's foolishness is wiser than man's wisdom . And God's weakness is stronger than man's strength . Look to him . Not to yourself . We are but men .

ananda · Aug 26, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
You may take the great falling away seriously . The apostasy . It is not vague but very clear and should be obvious except one's eyes be closed . And wake up to the truth all around you quickly . You probably followed a dead Christianity all of your life . Rituals . Traditions , etc.
Did Buddhism or any religious writing predict that it's own truths would be forsaken one day prior to the end of all things ? That it would be replaced by a "form" of religion . This mirrors Israel's own apostacy when it assimilated and Jerusalem was consequently destroyed . ( Jerusalem's ruin and captivity to Babylon is a historical fact . )
A child should be able to see that this is true and it needs no interpretation . Things are what they are . " And for this cause God shall send a strong delusion that they shall believe a lie because they received not a love for the truth . "
I guess a leaning tree in a forest of leaning trees has no concept that it is leaning nor that anything is amiss . When we deny God , it makes us incapable of true humility for we look to our own selves for righteousness and worth . Many good deeds and right thoughts ...we are in essence still eating from the tree of knowledge of good and evil . Then we become carrier's of eternal death to others by denying life. Paul said not many wise according to the flesh can get this for the cross of Christ is foolish to them . But God 's foolishness is wiser than man's wisdom . And God's weakness is stronger than man's strength . Look to him . Not to yourself . We are but men .

Buddhism predicts that knowledge of the Dhamma will gradually erode away over time, as is the natural course of all conditioned things. It will be followed by a period of spiritual and intellectual darkness, until the next bodhisatta rediscovers the truths of Dhamma on his own and becomes the next samma-sam-Buddha.

NeedyFollower · Aug 27, 2019

ananda said:
Buddhism predicts that knowledge of the Dhamma will gradually erode away over time, as is the natural course of all conditioned things. It will be followed by a period of spiritual and intellectual darkness, until the next bodhisatta rediscovers the truths of Dhamma on his own and becomes the next samma-sam-Buddha.

And this differs from Christian teaching ( which I believe both mirrors and supersedes-informs Judaism ) . In our Bible , it says knowledge-intellect will actually Increase . The prophet Daniel states this in Daniel 12:4 . It is mirrored in 2nd Timothy, chapter 3 ...The phrase used to describes believers in the last days are heady and high-minded , lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God .
We have a different belief than Buddhist ( as we must ) in that we believe the great falling away is caused by too much intellect which obviously creates a sense of superiority ( pride ) which results in being cut-off from wisdom which comes from God . It is manifested in people being implacable .
( Basically "seeing" but refusing to see due to the great cost of seeing . ) This also happened in Jesus day ...many were afraid of acknowledging Jesus as the Christ for fear of being kicked out of the synagogue . I guess that is why it is difficult the more one has invested in something or if they have followers , to say ...I may be wrong . That's also probably why in the book of James it says to not be many teachers .
Well at least we have the scriptures to tell us what to expect and it does seem like intellectual knowledge is actually increasing ... poor children . Being raised smart but not wise . Being raised to pursue the temporal at the cost of the eternal .
Jesus talks about false prophets who appear in sheeps clothing but are inwardly "ravening wolves " . I see this is becoming sadly more relevant in the christian community so it seems to affirm the truth . Also , we have writings which say that evil men and seducers will grow worse and worse ...deceiving and being deceived . This seems very specific and prevalent . Particularly the seducing part ...This is why I am not concerned with an atheist for even the enemy believes in God and is too subtle for that . ( Now the serpent was more subtle than all of the beast ...this is of course allegorical . )
There are lots of "rabbit trails " in which to run down to deny truth .
I guess there are some similarities in our beliefs . We are to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling ( although we give God the credit so as not to give to man that which belongs to one more glorious than man ! ) Also , we know that the only thing worthy of God , comes from God . And God is a spirit . That which is seen is temporal ( temporary ) and that which is not seen is eternal .

ananda · Aug 28, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
And this differs from Christian teaching ( which I believe both mirrors and supersedes-informs Judaism ) . In our Bible , it says knowledge-intellect will actually Increase . The prophet Daniel states this in Daniel 12:4 . It is mirrored in 2nd Timothy, chapter 3 ...The phrase used to describes believers in the last days are heady and high-minded , lovers of pleasure more than lovers of God .
We have a different belief than Buddhist ( as we must ) in that we believe the great falling away is caused by too much intellect which obviously creates a sense of superiority ( pride ) which results in being cut-off from wisdom which comes from God . It is manifested in people being implacable .
( Basically "seeing" but refusing to see due to the great cost of seeing . ) This also happened in Jesus day ...many were afraid of acknowledging Jesus as the Christ for fear of being kicked out of the synagogue . I guess that is why it is difficult the more one has invested in something or if they have followers , to say ...I may be wrong . That's also probably why in the book of James it says to not be many teachers .
Well at least we have the scriptures to tell us what to expect and it does seem like intellectual knowledge is actually increasing ... poor children . Being raised smart but not wise . Being raised to pursue the temporal at the cost of the eternal .
Jesus talks about false prophets who appear in sheeps clothing but are inwardly "ravening wolves " . I see this is becoming sadly more relevant in the christian community so it seems to affirm the truth . Also , we have writings which say that evil men and seducers will grow worse and worse ...deceiving and being deceived . This seems very specific and prevalent . Particularly the seducing part ...This is why I am not concerned with an atheist for even the enemy believes in God and is too subtle for that . ( Now the serpent was more subtle than all of the beast ...this is of course allegorical . )
There are lots of "rabbit trails " in which to run down to deny truth .
I guess there are some similarities in our beliefs . We are to work out our own salvation in fear and trembling ( although we give God the credit so as not to give to man that which belongs to one more glorious than man ! ) Also , we know that the only thing worthy of God , comes from God . And God is a spirit . That which is seen is temporal ( temporary ) and that which is not seen is eternal .

Knowledge of the superficial material world has indeed increased, but IMO knowledge of the Dhamma regarding the phenomenological world has decreased.

NeedyFollower · Aug 29, 2019

ananda said:
Knowledge of the superficial material world has indeed increased, but IMO knowledge of the Dhamma regarding the phenomenological world has decreased.

But that is as it must be for as material knowledge increases , it affords time away from the One by whom wisdom is given . Wealth also contributes to this . That is why the prophet Daniel says that through peace ( prosperity) many will be destroyed . If you were raised as a christian as I was , the model was " go to church , listen to the preacher , do the rituals , believe the theology and then go home ." Home and school meant TV , dating , pursuing higher education and success in this life . No wonder there has been a great falling away . It is inevitable . This does not even take into account how we have been influenced by Greek thought and culture which has been combined with a political understanding and government which has produced a corrupted Christianity . You can not combine the Holy and the profane . It does not work .

ananda · Aug 29, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
But that is as it must be for as material knowledge increases , it affords time away from the One by whom wisdom is given . Wealth also contributes to this . That is why the prophet Daniel says that through peace ( prosperity) many will be destroyed . If you were raised as a christian as I was , the model was " go to church , listen to the preacher , do the rituals , believe the theology and then go home ." Home and school meant TV , dating , pursuing higher education and success in this life . No wonder there has been a great falling away . It is inevitable . This does not even take into account how we have been influenced by Greek thought and culture which has been combined with a political understanding and government which has produced a corrupted Christianity . You can not combine the Holy and the profane . It does not work .

Thank you for sharing. There is no "holy" and "profane" in Buddhism - just that which is skillful & unskillful.

NeedyFollower · Sep 3, 2019

ananda said:
Thank you for sharing. There is no "holy" and "profane" in Buddhism - just that which is skillful & unskillful.

In traditional christianity , there is faithful and unfaithful . Love and unlove . I am given to understand in Buddhism that love is equated with desire and is maybe considered "unskillful . " But if love is defined as giving , relieving suffering , demonstrating mercy , providing hope and removal of darkness , then this is what is described in the thirteenth chapter of 1st Corinthians . You may remember that chapter ..it is not against what you may also believe . It agrees with the teaching in Micah 6:8 regarding what does the Lord require of thee but to do justly , to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God .
My understanding of love may be different than the Buddha . It is a cake composed of many ingredients , patient and kind , it does not envy , it does not boast , it is not proud . It is not rude or self -seeking , it is not easily angered and does not keep a record of wrongs . Love is alive and not "dead ." That is why in Ephesians the teacher instructs us to "awake from the dead , thou that sleeps and Christ shall give thee light . " It is true . I lived my whole life dead but was awakened to love from a deep sleep . And love can be taught and should be taught . Go make disciples and teach them all that I have commanded you ....I give unto you a new commandment ..that you love one another . All the law and prophets are fulfilled in love .

ananda · Sep 3, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
In traditional christianity , there is faithful and unfaithful . Love and unlove . I am given to understand in Buddhism that love is equated with desire and is maybe considered "unskillful . " But if love is defined as giving , relieving suffering , demonstrating mercy , providing hope and removal of darkness , then this is what is described in the thirteenth chapter of 1st Corinthians . You may remember that chapter ..it is not against what you may also believe . It agrees with the teaching in Micah 6:8 regarding what does the Lord require of thee but to do justly , to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God .
My understanding of love may be different than the Buddha . It is a cake composed of many ingredients , patient and kind , it does not envy , it does not boast , it is not proud . It is not rude or self -seeking , it is not easily angered and does not keep a record of wrongs . Love is alive and not "dead ." That is why in Ephesians the teacher instructs us to "awake from the dead , thou that sleeps and Christ shall give thee light . " It is true . I lived my whole life dead but was awakened to love from a deep sleep . And love can be taught and should be taught . Go make disciples and teach them all that I have commanded you ....I give unto you a new commandment ..that you love one another . All the law and prophets are fulfilled in love .

"Love" (metta) is considered moderately skillful in Buddhism - it is a state which is still a huge step up for most individuals mired in ignorance and hatred. However, it is not considered the highest skill, so it too must be transcended.

The Buddhist definitions for metta correspond much to what you described (giving, relieving suffering, etc.). It is not considered the highest skill because it is still 1. considered an attachment in the individual who loves others, and 2. it is not the most perfect way to help others.

Attachment causes suffering in the one who loves.

It is also not the most perfect way to help others, since we understand rather that the best way to help others change for the better is through 1. personal example (of a better way), and 2. through shared wisdom. As you probably know, the best way to initiate the deepest change in one's self is not to have other push their help on us (their expressions of "love", mercy, giving, etc.), but because we become personally convinced that their way is the best - and then we work to change ourselves. Therefore, we believe that the Buddha demonstrated the highest form of compassion for others through his own example, and by his wisdom which he shared.

NeedyFollower · Sep 3, 2019

ananda said:
"Love" (metta) is considered moderately skillful in Buddhism - it is certainly a state which is a huge step up for most individuals mired in ignorance and hatred. However, it is not considered the highest skill, and it too must be transcended.

The Buddhist definitions for metta correspond much to what you described (giving, relieving suffering, etc.) but it is not the highest skill because it is still 1. considered an attachment in the individual who loves others, and 2. it is not the most perfect way to help others.

Attachment cause suffering in the one who loves.

It is also not the most perfect way, since we understand that the best way to help others change for the better is through 1. personal example (of a better way), and 2. through shared wisdom. As you probably know, the best way to initiate the deepest change in one's self is not to have other push their help on us (their expressions of "love", mercy, giving, etc.), but because we become personally convinced that their way is the best - ae then work to change ourselves. Therefore, we believe that the Buddha demonstrated the highest form of compassion for others through his own example, and by his wisdom which he shared.

Yes ...attachment causes suffering to the one who loves . Amen . For God so loved the world . How heart broken and gut wrenching . How great the suffering . It is why Paul says that "as sorrowful but always rejoicing " . To care deeply . This is the lesson of Christ Jesus sacrifice . ( And this regardless of the their returning love ..for that is only mercenary . )
If you wish to avoid suffering , then Buddhism is a better choice for you than ancient christiainty ...inner christianity without the rituals and what is called worship . There is peace and hope and joy but it is mixed with extreme concern which is a by-product of love . There is no other way . The way of the cross. But it is good news for many . Paul had a continuous ache in his heart for the jews ..his kinsmen after the flesh . So yes you are correct . Attachment causes suffering . But we are more than dead rocks . We are born once by lust but the second time by love .

ananda · Sep 3, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
Yes ...attachment causes suffering to the one who loves . Amen . For God so loved the world . How heart broken and gut wrenching . How great the suffering . It is why Paul says that "as sorrowful but always rejoicing " . To care deeply . This is the lesson of Christ Jesus sacrifice . ( And this regardless of the their returning love ..for that is only mercenary . )
If you wish to avoid suffering , then Buddhism is a better choice for you than ancient christiainty ...inner christianity without the rituals and what is called worship . There is peace and hope and joy but it is mixed with extreme concern which is a by-product of love . There is no other way . The way of the cross. But it is good news for many . Paul had a continuous ache in his heart for the jews ..his kinsmen after the flesh . So yes you are correct . Attachment causes suffering . But we are more than dead rocks . We are born once by lust but the second time by love .

... and, for Buddhism, reborn a third time by wisdom.

NeedyFollower · Sep 3, 2019

ananda said:
... and, for Buddhism, reborn a third time by wisdom.

I would guess different people would define even wisdom differently . A 30 year old thinks he is wise until he becomes 60 . A 60 year old thinks he is wise until he reaches 100 . A 100 year old thinks he is wise , etc. but there is one who is wiser than man for He is more ancient than man ...and man's creator.
A wisdom that has me strive for "unfeeling " or beyond feeling is not in my opinion wise but again , I am by God's mercy one who has been forgiven and been given much . To whom much is given , much is required .

It seems a bit stoic and heartless to me . So ...it is unfeeling ? How is that different than an inanimate object ? You know the Isralites did the same thing ..Their idols had eyes but could not see . Ears that could not hear and they became just like them . Dead . It is what happens when we worship inanimate objects . Did the Buddha weep ?

I am so sorry brother that you are striving to lose your feelings . Do not become hard hearted . God will take out our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh .

ananda · Sep 3, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
I would guess different people would define even wisdom differently . A 30 year old thinks he is wise until he becomes 60 . A 60 year old thinks he is wise until he reaches 100 . A 100 year old thinks he is wise , etc. but there is one who is wiser than man for He is more ancient than man ...and man's creator.

The development of wisdom in Buddhism is directed towards one subject - phenomenological transcendence. The "wisdom" related to other things are ultimately irrelevant.

A wisdom that has me strive for "unfeeling " or beyond feeling is not in my opinion wise but again , I am by God's mercy one who has been forgiven and been given much . To whom much is given , much is required .

It seems a bit stoic and heartless to me . So ...it is unfeeling ? How is that different than an inanimate object ? You know the Isralites did the same thing ..Their idols had eyes but could not see . Ears that could not hear and they became just like them . Dead . It is what happens when we worship inanimate objects . Did the Buddha weep ?

I am so sorry brother that you are striving to lose your feelings . Do not become hard hearted . God will take out our heart of stone and give us a heart of flesh .

What do you believe is the end purpose for those feelings?

NeedyFollower · Sep 4, 2019

ananda said:
The development of wisdom in Buddhism is directed towards one subject - phenomenological transcendence. The "wisdom" related to other things are ultimately irrelevant.

What do you believe is the end purpose for those feelings?

Well I believe it is the same end purpose as the beginning purpose . Why did God so love the creation that he demonstrated that love by giving His Son ? Because of love . Love is the reason He created . Love is the reason for the sacrifice . Love is the fulfillment of all the law and prophets . Love was in the beginning and love will be in the end . The Alpha and Omega . As in the beginning , so in the end . There is nothing greater and nothing higher .
I do agree with you about the wisdom related to other things being irrelevant for they are "things " . The pursuit of knowledge will pass away for we will know . Faith will not be needed for we will see . But love ...ah brother . That is eternal and it comes from God through His eternal vehicle , Jesus Christ .
But we have fallen into the trap of the love of things and since things are soul-less , society has become also soul-less . That is why Jesus said , what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his own soul ?

ananda · Sep 4, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
Well I believe it is the same end purpose as the beginning purpose . Why did God so love the creation that he demonstrated that love by giving His Son ? Because of love . Love is the reason He created . Love is the reason for the sacrifice . Love is the fulfillment of all the law and prophets . Love was in the beginning and love will be in the end . The Alpha and Omega . As in the beginning , so in the end . There is nothing greater and nothing higher .
I do agree with you about the wisdom related to other things being irrelevant for they are "things " . The pursuit of knowledge will pass away for we will know . Faith will not be needed for we will see . But love ...ah brother . That is eternal and it comes from God through His eternal vehicle , Jesus Christ .
But we have fallen into the trap of the love of things and since things are soul-less , society has become also soul-less . That is why Jesus said , what does it profit a man to gain the whole world and yet lose his own soul ?

Why would God need anything besides himself to love, if he was complete & perfect in himself? Doesn't this mean that he was incomplete, imperfect?

NeedyFollower · Sep 4, 2019

ananda said:
Why would God need anything besides himself to love, if he was complete & perfect in himself? Doesn't this mean that he was incomplete, imperfect?

Love is also an action . Love is the one thing that one can give and it actually multiplies and edifies rather than diminishes . Since love and sacrifice are synonyms , God creating so He could give actually demonstrates both His perfection and His divinity . Our adversary is a taker . He hates life and is especially unfond of the life giver who did what satan ( our adversary ) would not nor could not do .
Love can be perfect but not complete until it adds and adds and adds and adds . We are the ones who are incomplete apart from Him . Much like the father of the prodigal son . He was still a father when his son was lost and living among those not his family , and if you know the parable , he was not only a good father but a great father . When his son returned , he RAN out to meet him and put his own robe on the son and had a party . Why ? For Love's sake . Because he loved His son ...He was more than perfect and was able to demonstrate that by not berating his son for acting like a loser . So , if the son had not returned , was the father still not perfect but just not able to demonstrate his forgiveness ? But he delighted to DEMONSTRATE his love . As he does with you .

ananda · Sep 4, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
Love is also an action . Love is the one thing that one can give and it actually multiplies and edifies rather than diminishes . Since love and sacrifice are synonyms , God creating so He could give actually demonstrates both His perfection and His divinity . Our adversary is a taker . He hates life and is especially unfond of the life giver who did what satan ( our adversary ) would not nor could not do .
Love can be perfect but not complete until it adds and adds and adds and adds . We are the ones who are incomplete apart from Him . Much like the father of the prodigal son . He was still a father when his son was lost and living among those not his family , and if you know the parable , he was not only a good father but a great father . When his son returned , he RAN out to meet him and put his own robe on the son and had a party . Why ? For Love's sake . Because he loved His son ...He was more than perfect and was able to demonstrate that by not berating his son for acting like a loser . So , if the son had not returned , was the father still not perfect but just not able to demonstrate his forgiveness ? But he delighted to DEMONSTRATE his love . As he does with you .

God's love is not complete, unless "he adds and adds and adds and adds"?

NeedyFollower · Sep 4, 2019

ananda said:
God's love is not complete, unless "he adds and adds and adds and adds"?

Yes ...for it is better to give than receive and in order to demonstrate that , He had to create . And not needing anything , he had to give for God is not a Buddhist but God is an act of love . Not a meditation of love but an act . I hope you understand what love is and whereas one is complete and more is better .
Did you not understand the parable of the prodigal son ? It is an actual demonstration of both God and love . Nothing higher .

ananda · Sep 4, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
Yes ...for it is better to give than receive and in order to demonstrate that , He had to create . And not needing anything , he had to give for God is not a Buddhist but God is an act of love . Not a meditation of love but an act . I hope you understand what love is and whereas one is complete and more is better .
Did you not understand the parable of the prodigal son ? It is an actual demonstration of both God and love . Nothing higher .

If God needs endlessly more, then it suggests to me that he is perpetually dissatisfied, and can't be the highest goal. He can't be content with enough, or less.

I really can't see how "love" can be the highest goal, even though it seems to be the constant refrain from most Christians and other ecumenical new-agers.

NeedyFollower · Sep 5, 2019

ananda said:
If God needs endlessly more, then it suggests to me that he is perpetually dissatisfied, and can't be the highest goal. He can't be content with enough, or less.

I really can't see how "love" can be the highest goal, even though it seems to be the constant refrain from most Christians and other ecumenical new-agers.

I would suppose there is a difference in needs and wants . I would not imagine that God needs anything . Would you ? I do not need my children to refrain from walking off a 100 story building to their death despite my warnings and pleadings to turn around . But I prefer that not only they but many others walking along blindly and deaf to the call , to turn around . I will not cease to exist if they pursue rebellion and death . So do I need endless more ? No but I desire it because of love .
The scripture says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked . I can agree that with that .
Jesus wept over Jerusalem . Jeremiah was called the weeping prophet . Why ? Love . Jesus was angry with those who lied to the people and was often grieved .
If you do not love others , then it would of course be reasonable that you can not have a frame of reference for what I am even saying . It is night and day . Darkness and light . So it makes perfect sense that you can not see how love can be the highest goal . This is only right but I hope otherwise for you because it matters very much .
Can God be grieved ? The scripture says yes . Why ? Because he cares . As the giver of life , it makes sense . Would that not suggest that He loves ?

ananda · Sep 5, 2019

NeedyFollower said:
I would suppose there is a difference in needs and wants . I would not imagine that God needs anything . Would you ? I do not need my children to refrain from walking off a 100 story building to their death despite my warnings and pleadings to turn around . But I prefer that not only they but many others walking along blindly and deaf to the call , to turn around . I will not cease to exist if they pursue rebellion and death . So do I need endless more ? No but I desire it because of love .
The scripture says that God has no pleasure in the death of the wicked . I can agree that with that .
Jesus wept over Jerusalem . Jeremiah was called the weeping prophet . Why ? Love . Jesus was angry with those who lied to the people and was often grieved .
If you do not love others , then it would of course be reasonable that you can not have a frame of reference for what I am even saying . It is night and day . Darkness and light . So it makes perfect sense that you can not see how love can be the highest goal . This is only right but I hope otherwise for you because it matters very much .
Can God be grieved ? The scripture says yes . Why ? Because he cares . As the giver of life , it makes sense . Would that not suggest that He loves ?

A preference means it would please me more if the preference was fulfilled, compared to if it wasn't fulfilled. That suggests that the biblical God is subject to a higher law which governs his own behavior.

The time when I nearly fell to Buddhism.

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Well-Known Member

Early Buddhist

Similar threads

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency