The Three-Legged Stool of Apostasy

[reddogs]

A similiarity that I've noticed with many of my 'freethinkers' and others in the online forums on Adventism and the SDA church has been that they are following one of what I call the 'Three-Legged Stool' of pushing the evangelical view, rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy, attacking the Adventist beliefs/church/administration.

The problem with the evangelical view is obvious with its belief in 'self' being the main ingredient in salvation, declaring themselves 'saved' or 'born again' while effectively shunting aside God as judge or Christ as saviour, and saying they 'follow the spirit' even though many things they are advocating as from 'the spirit' is not in harmony with God or His word. They drift off on a path that seems to be following a spirit, but one that they do not test and try to see if it is in harmony with God or what Christ gave as testimony or taught us to follow.

The rejection of the Spirit of Prophecy is best seen in what happened to a close friend who was a intellectual and who I considered a strong believer and mentor. He was very involved in the Adventist church, a fierce defender and believer of its truths, using his intellectual skills and logic to answer questioning minds and defend against any attack on the truth. But a seed of doubt was put into his mind about Ellen White and little by little he began to drift away until he rejected the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, saying they werent really 'prophecy' and then became unsure or seemingly confused on other truths that before had been plain to him. He has drifted looking for a church or movement to join but in his mind he still sees that they do not have the fullness of truth that he has left behind.

The attack against Adventist beliefs/church or administration is more subtle as it can begin with small issues such as a questioning of tithe or not accepting a proper rebuke from church brethren on smoking or drinking. Something the individual wants to get out of following or or to justify continuing in the wrong behavior or vice. This then slowly grows and then begins to manifests itself into outright hostility to the church with bellicose statements attacking it or unjust criticism of anything Adventist. It leads the individual to become a opponent and angry denouncer of Adventist believers, beliefs, and the Adventist chuch. They just continue attacking or slowly drift off from the truth into looking for people, a movement or some church that will accept their outlook against the Adventist church.


Each one can lead to a falling away from Adventism, or combine in a individuals outlook to as they fall away completely and fight against truth they held or try to pry others from the truth.

The Adventist church has been given the most complete and fullness of Gods truth in harmony with His word and understanding of prophecy beyond any other church, movement or view, and anyone who turns from Adventism is choosing a lesser or false truth.

The path to unbelief is wide and well traveled, littered with good intentions and seemingly logical arguments and rational views on why to continue on it, but it still leads to eternal death rather than eternal life. Be careful of any of the Three-Legged Stool of Apostasy, pray that the Lord will send His Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth and unveil the path for you to follow.

 

[sentipente]

A similiarity that I've noticed with many of my 'freethinkers' and others in the online forums on Adventism and the SDA church has been that they are following one of what I call the 'Three-Legged Stool' of pushing the evangelical view, rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy, attacking the Adventist beliefs/church/administration.

Do you revel in spreading lies and untruths? This is truly despicable.

 

[StormyOne]

more fearmongering....... don't think lest you find yourselve in apostasy......

 

[NightEternal]

 

[NightEternal]

Geesh. And people say I generalize!

Red, I don't know why you insist on posting this rhetoric. I would expect this sort of thing from Woob, but I thought you were above this.

I don't know where to start with this fallacious post and I don't really want to take the time. You seem to be set in your thinking even though we have tried to show you the error of your presumptions to no avail. Did I waste my time posting in detail what I believe for you?

http://christianforums.com/t6571653&page=3

It would seem so.

I will address this however:

Each one can lead to a falling away from Adventism, or combine in a individuals outlook to as they fall away completely and fight against truth they held or try to pry others from the truth.

I am going on the assumption that your post is describing this forum. I see this charge arising again and again and again and again from the Trads with no evidence or support whatsover given for its accuracy.

WHO here is trying to 'pry' others away from the church? WHO? Tall? Sophia? Free? Adventtruth? Eila? Ice? John? Do you have undeniable evidence that this is thier goal, agenda and motivation? Please provide one example of anyone on this forum leaving the church as a result of any of these individuals sharing where thier journey of faith has led them. Just one. Or maybe you don't know thier intentions and heart and should refrain from speculating about things that you are not privy to.

I do not see it. I give them the benefit of the doubt even though you seem unable to.

Will it ever be possible for them to share thier views and opinions here without this unsubstantiated claim being made about them? Why, even when they have clearly stated time and again they do not care if some continue to remain in the church, does this charge persist? What is this paranoia that falsely claims everyone who has left Adventism is on a demonic crusade to 'take everybody "down" with them'?

I said it before and I will say it again: NO ONE can 'take you out of the church' unless you LET THEM.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41342322&postcount=14

Is our faith and belief system that fragile and weak that it cannot stand serious scrutiny and questioning? What does that say about anyone if they can be led to abandon everything they believe so easily because of differing opinions being presented on this forum?

You demonize the formers. You demonize free thinkers. You demonize Evangelicals. You demonize the Progs. You give those of us still in the church no credit whatsoever.

Come on Red.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

The more things change the more they stay the same. Red would have no doubt been there with Eck in preparing a bull against Luther. As long as you begin with the presupposition that what you believe is the truth then you are content to attack anyone that disagrees and claim they are not following God and they have a spirit far from God and they are attacking the "truth"

With the Bull Exsurge Domine, where Luther’s name is repeated several times, Leo X condemns the 41 propositions or errors, drawn from the works of the Saxon monk, such as «vel hereticos, vel falsos, vel scandalosos, vel piarum aurium offensivos, vel simplicium mentium seductivos»; the propositions that were condemned regarded the «fides fiduciosa», the justification, the grace, the ecclesiastic hierarchy, the efficacy of the sacraments, the purgatory, repentance, the indulgencies and the original sin. The Pope ordered all the Christian faithful to not keep, read, defend or print Martin Luther’s books that contained these errors, moreover he exhorted them to burn them publicly. With regard to the innovator of Eisleben, for whom the Pope declared he had worked very hard (Quod vero ad ipsum Martinum attinet - bone Deus! - quid praetermisimus, quid non fecimus, quid paterne caritatis omisimus ut eum an huiusmodi erroribus revocaremus?), it was announced that he would have been excommunicated, if he had not made an act of obedience within 60 days from promulgation of the Bull in Germany...
http://asv.vatican.va/en/doc/1520.htm

So what issue is it you want to discuss here Red. Is it simply that you don't like people disagreeing with you and your beliefs? Not much of a discussion there I wouldn't think. You want to discuss if the SDA church has the "truth". We have pointed out many times errors and errors really can't be called truth. Do you want to discuss Ellen White. Well we have gone over that also and mainly the TSDA simply complain that examination does not give her enough respect. Do you want to discuss the possibility that if one leaves the SDA church they are no longer real Christians? I know many SDA's believe it so it would be great to see them put it in writing though.

Do you want to discuss the biggest problem in Christianity? "Tradition the quicksand of religion", how about that for a topic. No you just want to complain because in the TSDA world complaining is the highest form of worship.

So let us stand and sing our song for today, "Whine and Cry for Light is Dying".

 

[NightEternal]

I hate to say I told you so guys, but...

Another one bailed out. More apostasy ammunition for the Trads to use against those of us Progs who have remained. And they will use this against us, make no mistake. They will claim we are all headed in the same direction as Tall, Sophia, Free and Ice. It's a given.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41634426&postcount=3

I told you so.

 

[Eila]

The path to unbelief is wide and well traveled, littered with good intentions and seemingly logical arguments and rational views on why to continue on it, but it still leads to eternal death rather than eternal life.

Is salvation found in the Adventist church or in Jesus? Leaving Adventism doesn't equate leaving Jesus. If unbelief in Adventist doctrines leads to eternal death then your salvation is not based on Christ, but an institution.

 

[tall73]

A similiarity that I've noticed with many of my 'freethinkers' and others in the online forums on Adventism and the SDA church has been that they are following one of what I call the 'Three-Legged Stool' of pushing the evangelical view, rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy, attacking the Adventist beliefs/church/administration.

The problem with the evangelical view is obvious with its belief in 'self' being the main ingredient in salvation, declaring themselves 'saved' or 'born again' while effectively shunting aside God as judge or Christ as saviour, and saying they 'follow the spirit' even though many things they are advocating as from 'the spirit' is not in harmony with God or His word. They drift off on a path that seems to be following a spirit, but one that they do not test and try to see if it is in harmony with God or what Christ gave as testimony or taught us to follow.

The rejection of the Spirit of Prophecy is best seen in what happened to a close friend who was a intellectual and who I considered a strong believer and mentor. He was very involved in the Adventist church, a fierce defender and believer of its truths, using his intellectual skills and logic to answer questioning minds and defend against any attack on the truth. But a seed of doubt was put into his mind about Ellen White and little by little he began to drift away until he rejected the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, saying they werent really 'prophecy' and then became unsure or seemingly confused on other truths that before had been plain to him. He has drifted looking for a church or movement to join but in his mind he still sees that they do not have the fullness of truth that he has left behind.

The attack against Adventist beliefs/church or administration is more subtle as it can begin with small issues such as a questioning of tithe or not accepting a proper rebuke from church brethren on smoking or drinking. Something the individual wants to get out of following or or to justify continuing in the wrong behavior or vice. This then slowly grows and then begins to manifests itself into outright hostility to the church with bellicose statements attacking it or unjust criticism of anything Adventist. It leads the individual to become a opponent and angry denouncer of Adventist believers, beliefs, and the Adventist chuch. They just continue attacking or slowly drift off from the truth into looking for people, a movement or some church that will accept their outlook against the Adventist church.


Each one can lead to a falling away from Adventism, or combine in a individuals outlook to as they fall away completely and fight against truth they held or try to pry others from the truth.

The Adventist church has been given the most complete and fullness of Gods truth in harmony with His word and understanding of prophecy beyond any other church, movement or view, and anyone who turns from Adventism is choosing a lesser or false truth.

The path to unbelief is wide and well traveled, littered with good intentions and seemingly logical arguments and rational views on why to continue on it, but it still leads to eternal death rather than eternal life. Be careful of any of the Three-Legged Stool of Apostasy, pray that the Lord will send His Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth and unveil the path for you to follow.

Red, what is your purpose for this thread?

Who is your intended audience?

 

[Adventtruth]

A similiarity that I've noticed with many of my 'freethinkers' and others in the online forums on Adventism and the SDA church has been that they are following one of what I call the 'Three-Legged Stool' of pushing the evangelical view, rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy, attacking the Adventist beliefs/church/administration.

The problem with the evangelical view is obvious with its belief in 'self' being the main ingredient in salvation, declaring themselves 'saved' or 'born again' while effectively shunting aside God as judge or Christ as saviour, and saying they 'follow the spirit' even though many things they are advocating as from 'the spirit' is not in harmony with God or His word. They drift off on a path that seems to be following a spirit, but one that they do not test and try to see if it is in harmony with God or what Christ gave as testimony or taught us to follow.

The rejection of the Spirit of Prophecy is best seen in what happened to a close friend who was a intellectual and who I considered a strong believer and mentor. He was very involved in the Adventist church, a fierce defender and believer of its truths, using his intellectual skills and logic to answer questioning minds and defend against any attack on the truth. But a seed of doubt was put into his mind about Ellen White and little by little he began to drift away until he rejected the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, saying they werent really 'prophecy' and then became unsure or seemingly confused on other truths that before had been plain to him. He has drifted looking for a church or movement to join but in his mind he still sees that they do not have the fullness of truth that he has left behind.

The attack against Adventist beliefs/church or administration is more subtle as it can begin with small issues such as a questioning of tithe or not accepting a proper rebuke from church brethren on smoking or drinking. Something the individual wants to get out of following or or to justify continuing in the wrong behavior or vice. This then slowly grows and then begins to manifests itself into outright hostility to the church with bellicose statements attacking it or unjust criticism of anything Adventist. It leads the individual to become a opponent and angry denouncer of Adventist believers, beliefs, and the Adventist chuch. They just continue attacking or slowly drift off from the truth into looking for people, a movement or some church that will accept their outlook against the Adventist church.


Each one can lead to a falling away from Adventism, or combine in a individuals outlook to as they fall away completely and fight against truth they held or try to pry others from the truth.

The Adventist church has been given the most complete and fullness of Gods truth in harmony with His word and understanding of prophecy beyond any other church, movement or view, and anyone who turns from Adventism is choosing a lesser or false truth.

The path to unbelief is wide and well traveled, littered with good intentions and seemingly logical arguments and rational views on why to continue on it, but it still leads to eternal death rather than eternal life. Be careful of any of the Three-Legged Stool of Apostasy, pray that the Lord will send His Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth and unveil the path for you to follow.

I feel for ya!

AT

 

[Sophia7]

I hate to say I told you so guys, but...

Another one bailed out. More apostasy ammunition for the Trads to use against those of us Progs who have remained. And they will use this against us, make no mistake. They will claim we are all headed in the same direction as Tall, Sophia, Free and Ice. It's a given.

http://christianforums.com/showpost.php?p=41634426&postcount=3

I told you so.

Yes, it's a given. Wouldn't some people love it if all the Progs left the SDA Church? But that's not going to happen. It's only wishful thinking on their part.

 

[reddogs]

Red, what is your purpose for this thread?

Who is your intended audience?

I must apologize that I havent been able to answer everbodys post as I have been on vacation, but I will answer Talls question with the purpose and intent of this thread and we shall go from there if you'll allow me.

Those who truly seek Gods truth are my intended audience and my purpose is to challenge them to open their eyes, set aside any prejudice and ask themselves the following:

1) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of Gods truth in harmony with His word and understanding of prophecy, if so, you must go to it.

2) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of understanding of the Sabbath and its purpose then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

3) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of Three Angels message and the end time before Christ comes again then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

4) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of understanding of the Investigative Judgement and its purpose then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

5) Is there another church that is more prepared for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as has been promised then you must go to it and prepare for the Spirit to be poured out.

If you feel the Roman Catholic church, the Methodist, the Presbyterian, the Baptist, the Lutheran, the Unitarian, the Mormon, the Jehovah Witnesses, the Messianic Jews, the Greek Orthodox, or any other church is the Remnant Church who God loves, then you must run not walk to it.

You must search honestly and find where the most complete understanding of Gods truth is being preached in the church, taught in its schools, and shared by its members.

When you find it, please come back and share it with us as my 'freethinkers' are out there right now looking and they are not finding, and are coming back, but the love for the truth is no longer in them. The understanding of what was once plain has left them, the sharing of Gods truth has become a tortured twisting false deconstruction of Gods word, the love in their hearts has began to fade, and they are giving up on God altogether as they cant find what they once had....

We must not for the love of self, pride in self, pride in our intellect, pride in our 'human wisdom', let ourselves be led down a path that rejects Gods truth, and be cast adrift. We must obey and follow God wherever He leads us no matter what church, movement or group, and always remember that through obedience we are blessed with the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him. We must rejoice in the truth that God gives to us, and not let doubt, evil or love of self turn us from it.

If the Adventist Church is truly Gods Remnant Church, He will keep and protect it and guide it till the end. But if the church and its purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop it; you will only find yourselves fighting against God.

The Apostles Persecuted

17Then the high priest and all his associates, who were members of the party of the Sadducees, were filled with jealousy. 18They arrested the apostles and put them in the public jail. 19But during the night an angel of the Lord opened the doors of the jail and brought them out. 20"Go, stand in the temple courts," he said, "and tell the people the full message of this new life."

21At daybreak they entered the temple courts, as they had been told, and began to teach the people.
When the high priest and his associates arrived, they called together the Sanhedrin—the full assembly of the elders of Israel—and sent to the jail for the apostles. 22But on arriving at the jail, the officers did not find them there. So they went back and reported, 23"We found the jail securely locked, with the guards standing at the doors; but when we opened them, we found no one inside." 24On hearing this report, the captain of the temple guard and the chief priests were puzzled, wondering what would come of this.
25Then someone came and said, "Look! The men you put in jail are standing in the temple courts teaching the people." 26At that, the captain went with his officers and brought the apostles. They did not use force, because they feared that the people would stone them.
27Having brought the apostles, they made them appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. 28"We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name," he said. "Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man's blood."
29Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than men! 30The God of our fathers raised Jesus from the dead—whom you had killed by hanging him on a tree. 31God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might give repentance and forgiveness of sins to Israel. 32We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
33When they heard this, they were furious and wanted to put them to death. 34But a Pharisee named Gamaliel, a teacher of the law, who was honored by all the people, stood up in the Sanhedrin and ordered that the men be put outside for a little while. 35Then he addressed them: "Men of Israel, consider carefully what you intend to do to these men. 36Some time ago Theudas appeared, claiming to be somebody, and about four hundred men rallied to him. He was killed, all his followers were dispersed, and it all came to nothing. 37After him, Judas the Galilean appeared in the days of the census and led a band of people in revolt. He too was killed, and all his followers were scattered. 38Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. 39But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."
40His speech persuaded them. They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go. 41The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name. 42Day after day, in the temple courts and from house to house, they never stopped teaching and proclaiming the good news that Jesus is the Christ.[b]

 

[StormyOne]

your premise is flawed in that you equate a denominational affiliation with being a member of "the remnant church." Nothing could be further from the truth....

External association can be misleading, yet the information you copied and pasted is using that as criteria. While it might make you feel better, it is useless in identifying those who belong to God....

The content you posted could be used to point fingers or suggest that those who are thinking of leaving the sda church are in apostasy... and it might be useful in creating guilt in those who are afraid to use their brain as God intended...

Lastly, for you to post it suggests that you might have a warped view of God, salvation and God's interaction with humans....

 

[Mankin]

So if we come to a different conclusion on doctrine we need to pray to the Holy Spirit to make us see the truth in it? In the words of Charlie Brown, "I can't stand it!"

 

[freeindeed2]

A similiarity that I've noticed with many of my 'freethinkers' and others in the online forums on Adventism and the SDA church has been that they are following one of what I call the 'Three-Legged Stool' of pushing the evangelical view, rejecting the Spirit of Prophecy, attacking the Adventist beliefs/church/administration.

Apostasy to Adventism is NOT the same thing as apostasy to Christianity.

The problem with the evangelical view is obvious with its belief in 'self' being the main ingredient in salvation, declaring themselves 'saved' or 'born again' while effectively shunting aside God as judge or Christ as saviour, and saying they 'follow the spirit' even though many things they are advocating as from 'the spirit' is not in harmony with God or His word. They drift off on a path that seems to be following a spirit, but one that they do not test and try to see if it is in harmony with God or what Christ gave as testimony or taught us to follow.

You have certainly not laid out what the Evangelical 'view' is here. Basically it sounds like you're saying that Christians are not to claim the promises God gave to us assuring us that in Christ we are already saved, and if we are claiming that Christ has saved us (as he promised) we are not following the Holy Spirit, but some 'other' spirit.

The rejection of the Spirit of Prophecy is best seen in what happened to a close friend who was a intellectual and who I considered a strong believer and mentor. He was very involved in the Adventist church, a fierce defender and believer of its truths, using his intellectual skills and logic to answer questioning minds and defend against any attack on the truth. But a seed of doubt was put into his mind about Ellen White and little by little he began to drift away until he rejected the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation, saying they werent really 'prophecy' and then became unsure or seemingly confused on other truths that before had been plain to him. He has drifted looking for a church or movement to join but in his mind he still sees that they do not have the fullness of truth that he has left behind.

You mean the rejection of EGW as being the 'spirit of prophecy'. According to the Bible, the testimony of Jesus Christ is the spirit of prophecy, not a person lifted up by a sectarian group. Should we believe the Bible, or what the SDA church says?

The attack against Adventist beliefs/church or administration is more subtle as it can begin with small issues such as a questioning of tithe or not accepting a proper rebuke from church brethren on smoking or drinking. Something the individual wants to get out of following or or to justify continuing in the wrong behavior or vice. This then slowly grows and then begins to manifests itself into outright hostility to the church with bellicose statements attacking it or unjust criticism of anything Adventist. It leads the individual to become a opponent and angry denouncer of Adventist believers, beliefs, and the Adventist chuch. They just continue attacking or slowly drift off from the truth into looking for people, a movement or some church that will accept their outlook against the Adventist church.

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but it's not based in reality. Drifting from the claimed peculiar 'truths' of Adventism is NOT the same as rejecting the Truth (Jesus IS the truth). And rejecting Adventist's claimed version of 'truth' is not attacking the SDA church. The larger body of Christ has rejected the peculiar truths of Adventism clear back to it's beginnings when the Millerites believed in the false prophecies that led to their own disappointment. The larger body of Christ instead followed the Bible and were ridiculed for doing so by the Adventists.

Each one can lead to a falling away from Adventism, or combine in a individuals outlook to as they fall away completely and fight against truth they held or try to pry others from the truth.

I don't know any Christians trying to 'pry others away' from Jesus Christ.

The Adventist church has been given the most complete and fullness of Gods truth in harmony with His word and understanding of prophecy beyond any other church, movement or view, and anyone who turns from Adventism is choosing a lesser or false truth.

Can you get more elitist and arrogant?

Jesus IS the truth.

The path to unbelief is wide and well traveled, littered with good intentions and seemingly logical arguments and rational views on why to continue on it, but it still leads to eternal death rather than eternal life. Be careful of any of the Three-Legged Stool of Apostasy, pray that the Lord will send His Holy Spirit to guide you into all truth and unveil the path for you to follow.

We who believe in Jesus Christ for salvation already have the Holy Spirit (GOD) living in us. Why would we pray for what we already have as promised in Scripture? Do you not believe God's promises to us? I would call that 'unbelief'.

In Christ alone...

 

[sentipente]

reddogs, when did they elect you as President of the GC of SDA's? I may have missed something.

 

[RC_NewProtestants]

Red's reason for this thread appears to be to spread his misunderstandings. Let's look at his list:

Those who truly seek Gods truth are my intended audience and my purpose is to challenge them to open their eyes, set aside any prejudice and ask themselves the following:

1) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of Gods truth in harmony with His word and understanding of prophecy, if so, you must go to it.

There is in fact no church with complete and fullness of God's truth the reality is that as organizations every denomination and independent church has problems. Yes we rate which errors bother us the most and that may cause one to choose one or another.

2) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of understanding of the Sabbath and its purpose then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

Why is the Sabbath so important to you, maybe it is not to others, so is it necessary for you to assert what they must do also?

3) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of Three Angels message and the end time before Christ comes again then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

What nonsense you can't even make a statement without resorting to trite SDA phrases such as Three Angels message. Likely you don't even know what they mean by that. It is frankly often used to indicate all of the teachings of the SDA church.

4) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of understanding of the Investigative Judgement and its purpose then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

There is no church other then the SDA church with a investigative judgment view because it does not Biblically exist. What amazing nonsense

5) Is there another church that is more prepared for the outpouring of the Holy Spirit as has been promised then you must go to it and prepare for the Spirit to be poured out.

Oh so now the Holy Spirit is poured out on denominations. Guess I missed that part in the Bible as well, must be right next to the IJ.

If you feel the Roman Catholic church, the Methodist, the Presbyterian, the Baptist, the Lutheran, the Unitarian, the Mormon, the Jehovah Witnesses, the Messianic Jews, the Greek Orthodox, or any other church is the Remnant Church who God loves, then you must run not walk to it.

That is right go from one mistaken idea of the remnant to another of the fundamentalist branches which think they are the remnant also. What this amounts to is an appeal to find the same errors of the SDA church in other churches. And that puts us back to the answer in number one that there is not complete and full truth Christian denomination they all have errors and we ourselves no doubt have errors that we use to judge other churches.

You must search honestly and find where the most complete understanding of Gods truth is being preached in the church, taught in its schools, and shared by its members.

When you find it, please come back and share it with us as my 'freethinkers' are out there right now looking and they are not finding, and are coming back, but the love for the truth is no longer in them. The understanding of what was once plain has left them, the sharing of Gods truth has become a tortured twisting false deconstruction of Gods word, the love in their hearts has began to fade, and they are giving up on God altogether as they cant find what they once had....

Welcome to the Grand Illusion. If you can't search for truth here and now in the church you attend today what does that say about your church. I am willing to stay and explore but it is people like Red who practice amazingly narrow thinking patterns that really create the problems for people who actually are searching for truth.

 

[NightEternal]

4) Is there another church with a more complete and fullness of understanding of the Investigative Judgement and its purpose then you must go to it and gain the understanding.

I guess you know Red, that Dr. Ford and many other non-Adventist scholars have written VOLUMES refuting your postion.

Indeed, Dr. Ford said at a conference in the 1980's at which he spoke, that from the beginning right to the end of his Bible studies, Hebrews 9 and 10 always contradicted the postion of Ellen White and the SDA church. The more he studied Hebrews, the more he looked at the Greek in Hebrews, and the more he read the great scholars of the Protestant churches from Luther down to modern times, the more and more Hebrews 9 and 10 refuted Ellen White and the SDA postion.

Dr. Ford next went to other scholars in the church. He counseled with Dr. Ed Heppenstall and Dr. Raymond Cottrell and they admitted that it is impossible to unhold the SDA postion with Hebrews 9 and 10. Dr. Cottrell even related to Ford the story about how he was very upset with Dr. Barnhouse, a Presbyterian, back in the 1950's, when he told the Adventist church "there is not the slightest HINT in Hebrews or the entire Bible for that matter, of the 1844/IJ doctrine. No scholars, from centuries ago to today, have found this strange doctrine in Scripture and none ever will. You people only hold this doctrine because of Ellen White".

So, irritated by this perceived attack from Barnhouse, Dr. Cottrell decided to devote most of his time proving Dr. Barnhouse wrong. He sat down and began his attempt using the Greek, grammar, context and the other accepted methods of Bible scholarship to prove this doctrine FROM SCRIPTURE ALONE!! His conclusion was that this doctrine comes from Ellen White and NOT the Bible. Any SDA scholar worth thier salt will honestly tell you this, and that they only accept the doctrine based on EGW's endorsement. Bill Shea and Clifford Goldstein's Scriptural and theological gymnastics notwithstanding.

 

[Mankin]

Enough of this! I'm going home

 

[Mankin]

I guess you know Red, that Dr. Ford and many other non-Adventist scholars have written VOLUMES refuting your postion.

Indeed, Dr. Ford said at a conference in the 1980's at which he spoke, that from the beginning right to the end of his Bible studies, Hebrews 9 and 10 always contradicted the postion of Ellen White and the SDA church. The more he studied Hebrews, the more he looked at the Greek in Hebrews, and the more he read the great scholars of the Protestant churches from Luther down to modern times, the more and more Hebrews 9 and 10 refuted Ellen White and the SDA postion.

Dr. Ford next went to other scholars in the church. He counseled with Dr. Ed Heppenstall and Dr. Raymond Cottrell and they admitted that it is impossible to unhold the SDA postion with Hebrews 9 and 10. Dr. Cottrell even stated that he was very upset with Dr. Barnhouse, a Presbyterian, back in the 1950's, when he told the Adventist church "there is not the slightest HINT in Hebrews or the entire Bible for that matter, of the 1844/IJ doctrine. No scholars, from centuries ago to today, have found this strange doctrine in Scripture and none ever will. You people only hold this doctrine because of Ellen White".

So Dr. Cottrell decided to devoted most of his time proving Dr. Barnhouse wrong. He sat down and began his attempt using the Greek, grammar, context and the other accepted methods of Bible scholarship to prove this doctrine FROM SCRIPTURE ALONE!! His conclusion was that this doctrine comes from Ellen White and NOT the Bible. Any SDA scholar worth thier salt will honestly tell you this and that they only accept the doctrine based on EGW's endorsement.

Very true. In fact I just recently read those chapters of Hebrews. They pretty much refute the IJ completely.