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I guess we will find out, Jesus in action Luke4:16 and what He taught Mat12:12 Mark2:27 Mat4:4 Mat5:19-30 Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 21:13 quoting Isa 56:6-7 Mat 24:20 etc said something different, but I know your mind is made up and no amount of Scripture is going to change that. Guess we shall find out soon enoughIf we believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness, we are, out of love, to do what He has asked. He has never asked us (new covenant Christians) to observe the rituals given only to Israel. He has asked that we love others as He loves us. In fact, Jews, since Calvary, are subject to the New Covenant. The Old Covenant has passed. They are not obligated to keep the Old Covenant rituals. Everyone is under the New Covenant. It is here for all mankind.
We are not obliged under the New Covenant, but we may choose to do what is good under the Old Covenant. I choose to keep the Sabbath, because God said that it was good to keep that day holy.If we believe in Jesus and accept His forgiveness, we are, out of love, to do what He has asked. He has never asked us (new covenant Christians) to observe the rituals given only to Israel. He has asked that we love others as He loves us. In fact, Jews, since Calvary, are subject to the New Covenant. The Old Covenant has passed. They are not obligated to keep the Old Covenant rituals. Everyone is under the New Covenant. It is here for all mankind.
We know the two commandments Christ gave us, we can hang "all" the law on them. So all of us fall short of those from time to time, no one is perfect in the flesh. But we do strive to walk in the spirit so we can obey those two he gave us.Can you please share with me, if we are to love God with all heart, mind and soul which of these commandments of these are we free to break that God said if we love Him, we would keep them
I recently read a post of yours where you were telling someone they shouldn't take the figurative meaning or secondary meaning over the primary, and I thought to myself, why don't you practice what you tell others. This is literally what Heb4:9 means. The literal word for word translation I posted in the next post, it wasn't saving here for some reason. Take a look and see for yourself.
There's a difference between falling short, missing the mark and the habitual sinner who could care less.Can you explain how we can be in Christs rest when we are sinning and breaking one or any of God's commandments?
It is certainly about rest after work. Even the verse you posted shows that.Thats not what the Sabbath commandment says Exo20:8-11
Hangs on Scripture does not mean it changes or alters, can you imagine applying this to the first commandment? There is no Scripture that says the rest Christ gives deletes the 4th commandment. As shown Mat11:28 Mat12:12 Luke4:16 Lev 23:3 Its nonsensical. The 4th commandment is just that, not something God gave to Himself. Jesus never turned into the 4th commandment or the Sabbath day. He is our Creator, not the creation. Jesus said the Sabbath was made for us Mar2:27 and its something man does Isa56:2We know the two commandments Christ gave us, we can hang "all" the law on them. So all of us fall short of those from time to time, no one is perfect in the flesh. But we do strive to walk in the spirit so we can obey those two he gave us.
For many of us, our rest in Christ fulfils the 4th commandment. You just happen to believe differently. Again, the two he gives us we can hang all of them on them.
Why take the figurative meaning which is what it "might" mean over the literal translation which is what it does mean, I provided the word for word which correlates with the Testimony of God. Exo31:18 Deut4:13 Psa89:34I do practice that. The context starting off about "rest" is verse 3. Your problem is you see "Sabbath rest" and think of it as naturally as the weekly repose which is Sabbaton. We can't just assume Sabbath rest means the "weekly repose" That's not what the Greek defintion of sabbatismos is..
In Hebrews 4, nowhere is it mentioned we are to keep the weekly repose. sabbaton is not mentioned. If that was the rest that remained, it would have stated that. You keep mentioning that sabbatismos is that. But it's not. It's entirely different.
hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, "As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest:" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
Sabbtismos-
Strong's Exhaustive Concordance
rest
Again, first definiton is rest. Not weekly rest/repose
From a derivative of sabbaton; a "sabbatism", i.e. (figuratively) the repose of Christianity (as a type of heaven) -- rest.
The commandment says to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:11, ceasing from works and labors so we can do so focusing our time on God on His holy day Isa58:13. These are not my words; these are the spoken and/or written Testimony of God.Sabbaton is the weekly "repose" What is repose? Rest. So it's rest- that's the subject we are talking about.
God defines what sin is 1John3:4 James2:11, not us.There's a difference between falling short, missing the mark and the habitual sinner who could care less.
God is the heart knower.
We are to rest from our work and labors so we can keep the seventh day Sabbath holy.It is certainly about rest after work. Even the verse you posted shows that.
11 For pin six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day.
I know this passage can be difficult why its important to also compare to the rest of Scripture like what God promised He would not alter Psa89:34 meaning no Scripture can contradict God and it doesn't.Today we have this
Hebrews 4:3 "For we which have believed do enter into rest, as He said, "As I have sworn in My wrath, if they shall enter into My rest:" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world."
That's how we enter into his rest.
Hebrews 4:9 "There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God."
Hebrews 4:10 "For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from His."
Its what Jesus said Mat 21:13 quoting from Isa56:6-7 and that the apostles didn't keep every Sabbath decades after the Cross because it was a commandment of God. This is nonsensical. The apostles followed and imitated Christ Luke4:16 John15:10 just as we are to 1John2:6 they obeyed God's commandments, just as we are to. 1Cor7:19 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14And just because the disciples/apostles were in the temple preaching does not mean they were observing the sabbath.
Yes, we shall see. I would suggest looking at this because it's the literal translation of the Heb4:9 word for word. We both know we go by that versus possibilities. However, I do believe it has a figurative meaning as well, because no one in heaven is going to be breaking God's rest by sinning and being disobedient to one of His commandments. I can see the appeal of wanting to spiritualize the 4th commandment and do what we want on the holy day of the Lord thy God, but this has never worked out well for anyone before us Eze20:13 Eze22:26 and we are told not to follow the same path of disobedience Heb4:11. The 4th commandment includes both resting in Christ and resting from our works on the seventh day so we can keep the Sabbath day holy, spending time focusing on Christ. Getting our works and labors done on the other 6 days.Was not looking for another debate with you as we have been down this road many times. We just believe differently.
We shall see in the end....
Very well putYes, this is the thing that always baffles me. We are to love God with all our heart, mind and soul. That would definitely be 24/7 (not just one day of the week) And of course in this day and age especially all fall short of this from time to time because other matters fill the mind, etc. So who hasn't broken this commandment as well as love our neighbors as our selves from time to time. We are to strive for those but no one will ever be perfect in the flesh. Thankfully God is the heart knower.
And people always confuse the fact that the Sabbath was made for man -man's rest. And today we are to be in Christ's rest 24/7. That's where our abode is.
And I find these debates usually fall to the subject of what day should one go to church and worship. It's as you stated in this thread I think most focus on that and not what the Sabbath really entailed back then.
The Sabbath was set as example of rest after work. And Christ did the work on the cross (fulfilling the law) and that's where we find our rest. It's not about some day of the week at this point. But some people see Hebrews 4 differently. But there's a clear difference between sabbaton (the weekly repose) and sabbatismos- and that's the one that remains.
Until you prove that the 4th commandment is required of the Christian your argument is just repetition of what has already been refuted. You are only one verse away from proving your argument. All you have to do is post a post crucifixion verse that teaches that the Christian is required to keep the 4th commandment. That’s it no less and no more.As long as God is our Creator Exo20:11 and Santifer Eze20:12 and we are told to worship this God Rev 14:7 and never once did He abrogate His 4th commandment in the entire Bible, He said to Remember, my faith is in Him and not teachings of man. When God claimed the Ten Commandments as His Deut4:13 Exo 20:6 its God's Testimony Exo31:18 it means no mans teachings are greater.
We have free will and this will be sorted out at His soon return. We just need to prepare ourselves for our decision and where that leads one Rom6:16 Rev 22:11 Mat7:21-23 Rev22:14-15
And there is absolutely nothing unbiblical about that. No one should judge you if you want to keep it. That is what Col, 2:16 teaches. However, some of the sabbath keepers posting here actually judge those that choose not to keep the sabbath and accuse them of living in sin. That is totally unbiblical.We are not obliged under the New Covenant, but we may choose to do what is good under the Old Covenant. I choose to keep the Sabbath, because God said that it was good to keep that day holy.
Ok then, that argument can also be used in regards to the Ten Commandments, They were givien in a theocracy under the old covenent and we are no longer a theocracy and we are under a new covenent.We are not in a theocracy, judgement is in the last day, we all have to stand before Jesus one day soon John 14:28 2 Cor5:10 Ecc12:13-14
The sepant said more than that.Lets address the accusation in the garden because this is what was said:
God said
Gen 2:17 but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”
The devil said the opposite that we can disobey God and live , the same lie he continues to deceive millions if not billions
Gen 3:4 Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die.
How do you get past the fsct that God is killing them eternally because they don't love Him?God is love, its why I believe His judgement is one of love. Jesus died for the sins of the entire world that's how much He loves us. His wish is that no one perish but has everlasting life. However God who is love is not going to force someone to obey Him, it has to come from our heart. He never lets go of us, we let go of Him when we choose sin over abiding in Him. Sin is so deceitful and harmful, the only way to remove it is to remove all sin and sinners once and for all. He desires each one of us to come to Him and submit to His will, not because He is a tyrant, because He knows what's best for us. Many instead of going to Jesus seeking His help in overcoming like their sins more than they love Jesus to helps us overcome. He doesn't even make us obey on our own John14:15-18 but we have to cooperate with Him.
John 3:6 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”
Why the Ten Commandments is so important, they show us our sins and our true condition so we can seek His help in cleansing us, which means repenting, turning from sin, walking in a new direction Rom 6:1-4
John 15:4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.
5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you[b] will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.
9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.
God's Judgement is one of love because He is not going to make one live in eternity doing something they were so against in this world, including keeping the Sabbath for worship, which continues forever thus saith the Lord Isa66:22-23 God is not going to let people profane Him in the New Heaven and New Earth Eze22:26. If it was okay to do so, Lucifer and his angels would have not been kicked out.
Sin destroyed this world. The only way to get rid of it is to destroy the source and those who follow that source over following God. 1John3:8 God wants us to come to Him, but many do in name Luke6:46, not actions because they really do not want to change their ways, that's why Jesus will have to sort out the wheat from the tares at His return, because one person who refuses to let go of their sins impacts the entire flock and we are right back where we started. Jesus promised that's not going to happen, so in His longsuffering He is giving man time to make decisions who we are going to serve, which is who we obey Rom6:16. Soon though when everyone has made their choices and there is no more opportunity to sway them one way or the other, our decisions will be sealed Rev22:11 and Jesus will restore every everything back to His perfect plan for His faithful Rev22:14
You answer my post 97 first since you seem to have ignored it. It also contains the answer as to why I used the term legalistic.Since you are preaching to me and have judged me as leaning towards "Legalism", lets look and what a Legalist actually is.
le·gal·ism
[ˈliːɡəlɪz(ə)m]
noun
legalism (noun)
legalisms (plural noun)
What does the Bible teach about the Jesus "of the Bible"?
- excessive adherence to law or formula:
"this petty legalism encouraged more to flee"
Phil. 2: 5 "Let this mind be in you", which was also in Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: 7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
So whose Law was Jesus so excessively adherent to, even unto death? The Pharisees Law? Or God's Law?
What does Paul teach?
1 Cor. 7: Circumcision (Jew) is nothing, and uncircumcision (Gentile) is nothing, but the keeping of the commandments of God.
Whose Words did Jesus say men should "live by"? Didn't HE say men shall live by "Every Word" of God?
Matt. 5: 48 Be ye therefore perfect, "even as your Father which is in heaven" is perfect.
Didn't Jesus forgive a sinner, and then tell him, "Now Go and Transgress God's Commandments no more"?
And the Prophet's Spirit of Christ's inspired words;
Ecc. 12: 13 Let us hear "the conclusion of the whole matter": Fear God, and "keep his commandments": for "this is the whole duty of man". 14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
So then, a man striving to be Perfect, as Jesus was perfect, who was perfect, even as His Father in heaven is perfect, seems like a pretty "excessive adherence to law or "Way of the Lord"/ formula.
Why then do you judge such a commitment of Faith and self denial in worship and Faith of who Jesus Called, "The One True God" as a wicked or undesirable thing?
Am I not told to have the same mind that was in Jesus?
What if it's this world's religious system, who profess to know God just as the "other voice" in the garden in the beginning, that is against us, and not God's Laws at all?
What if the Bible is true, and Isaac was blessed "Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws?"
Strict adherence to God's Laws worked for Abraham, Noah, Caleb, Daniel, Shadrack, Zacharias, Simeon, Paul and All the examples of Faithful men in the Holy Scriptures. Why is "Yielding oneself a servant to obey God" so preached against by this world's mainstream religions?
Doesn't Jesus warn about these very things? Shall we not believe in the Jesus "of the Bible", even if "Many" who call Him Lord, Lord do not?
It’s about judgement, not changing the Laws. He said He would not Psa89:34 Mat5:18-19. It’s still sim in the NC 1John3:4 James 2:11 same consequences Rom6:23 unless we seek Jesus for the solution.Ok then, that argument can also be used in regards to the Ten Commandments, They were givien in a theocracy under the old covenent and we are no longer a theocracy and we are under a new covenant.
The serpent said the opposite of what God said.The sepant said more than that.
Gen 3:3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, 3 but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.’”
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman. 5 “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it. 7 Then the eyes of both of them were opened, and they realized they were naked; so they sewed fig leaves together and made coverings for themselves.
Here is my outline of what the serpant was implying:
- “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
- Implied that God is either mistaken about what He said or that His words have been exaggerated. (The question misquotes/magnifies the command.)
- Implied that God is overly restrictive or unreasonable — He forbids everything rather than giving freedom.
- Implied that God’s command is open to doubt or reinterpretation (invites Eve to question God’s authority and accuracy).
- Implied that God is the kind of authority whose rules can be disputed or challenged.
- “You will not certainly die.”
- Implied that God lied or is wrong about the consequences He announced (i.e., God’s warning is untrue).
- Implied that God’s threats are empty — He cannot or will not carry out what He says.
- Implied that God’s moral authority is unreliable (so Eve need not fear disobedience).
- Implied that God’s knowledge about death/consequence is limited or mistaken.
- “For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”
- Implied that God is withholding something valuable (knowledge, wisdom, divine status) from humans out of selfishness or fear.
- Implied that God is jealous, afraid, or insecure about humans becoming like Him (i.e., God wants to keep humans inferior).
- Implied that God intentionally limits human potential to keep power or privilege.
- Implied that God’s motive for the prohibition is control rather than genuine care (the ban is portrayed as a power-preserving restriction).
- Also subtly flatters Eve by promising elevation (be “like God”), implying that God is the obstacle to human fulfillment.
The wages of sin is death Rom6:23 the punishment is eternal, death, being no more, not that He is punishing people forever and ever.How do you get past the fsct that God is killing them eternally because they don't love Him?
You answer my post 97 first since you seem to have ignored it.
I am not familiar with the verse that God's Truth turns into untruth...
So you are not going to address my post 97. Got it.I addressed the very foundation of your adopted religious philosophy, your aversion to those like the Jesus "of the Bible" completely commit themselves to God and their bodies as instruments of righteousness unto God.
So I have absolutely answered your judgment of me and your aversion for "Legalism", a word never spoken in the Bible accept to describe Jesus and His excessive adherence to His Father and His Father's Laws
Wouldn't the world be a better place if everyone Loved and Respected God and His instruction in Righteousness like Jesus did, instead of "living by" the doctrines, judgments and philosophies of the religions of the world God placed us in? Nevertheless, Jesus said few would enter this lifestyle. Can we not choose to be of the few?
Certainly food for thought, for those "seeking Glory, Honor and Immortality".
?
You do know this is the devil speaking trying to tempt Jesus to sin quoting Scripture out of context. Nothing about God’s Truth turning into untruths
Someone quoting Scripture out of context does not change what God said is His Truth.That is what it is... and it is happening on this forum daily.
So many folks quoting Scripture from a wrong spirit.
The Bible is not true when it is being quoted to deceive.
Quoting Scripture does not guarantee Truth is being expressed.
Someone quoting Scripture out of context does not change what God said is His Truth.
Jesus is the Truth John 14:6
All His commandments are Truth Psa 119:151
His Word is Truth John 17:17
You still haven’t provided an example of what God said is His Truth changing into untruths.
The Bible is true even when people use it to deceive. It’s the people that are untrue, not God’s Word.
It still doesn;t change what God said is His Truth. Can we trust Him? Not talking about Satan.When Satan quoted the Word he delivered an untruth.
You do realize that the early Christian church met daily in the temple? They didn't just set out one day for worship, preaching, etc. They assembled daily and God added to the church daily. And Paul even talked about collections on the first day of the week when he wrote to one of the churches he set up.Its what Jesus said Mat 21:13 quoting from Isa56:6-7 and that the apostles didn't keep every Sabbath decades after the Cross because it was a commandment of God. This is nonsensical. The apostles followed and imitated Christ Luke4:16 John15:10 just as we are to 1John2:6 they obeyed God's commandments, just as we are to. 1Cor7:19 Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14
It still doesn;t change what God said is His Truth. Can we trust Him? Not talking about Satan.
It doesn’t matter what others say, what does God say. If God‘s Word tells us something verbatim, this is Truth- can we trust Him?
Since we are speaking (originally) about the Testimony of God, It would have been nice if we could have addressed that. Something I do not believe ever turns into untruth. If you do, well I guess it will get sorted out soon enough.
The first and second generation of church fathers did not write in support of sabbath keeping, and some specifically wrote against it. It's never been a recorded part of church history. And it wasn't until the 19th century that it ever became a thing with the exception of an odd small sect here and there that were formed after the reformation. Like the seventh-day Baptists from the 18th century. Christian sabbath keeping, historally speaking, is a relatively new invention. If the earliest church fathers didn't practice it, there's no reason why it should be practiced by Christians. Other than the desire to follow nuvo man-made doctrine.It is important not to rewrite scriptures to support preconceived ideas, or popular religious philosophies of this world God placed us in, in my view. God's Holy Sabbath is a "Feast of the Lord", not an "Israelite ritual". This is simply undeniable Biblical Fact. Religious men of this world have polluted it, created their own, rejected it and so forth. Just because a man chooses not to believe God's Very Words, doesn't make God's Words false.
The "Christians" in Matt. 7:22,23, who called Jesus Lord, Lord, but rejected God's commandments, what did Jesus say to them? Did HE say, "Well, because you have judged yourself as acceptable, I guess you are allowed into the Kingdom of God"? He didn't of course. Am I better than they? Shall I live by the same philosophy they chose, and be spared? Those Christians who were speaking to Him face to face "in that day", were they convinced by some voice that they were "Saved"?
These are good discussion to have among men seeking the righteousness of God, in my view.
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