• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

  • CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.

The Thing Most Sabbath Keepers Do not Talk About.

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,599
718
66
Michigan
✟504,863.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Romans 14 is about not judging others on the basis of the faith they have been given.

Claiming a 'Greater Holiness' by observing "a day" is exactly what Paul is teaching against.

That's not what my post says, nor what I believe, nor what Paul was teaching. It doesn't matter what a man "esteems", it matters what God Esteems. A new convert is filled with the influences of an evil world, man-made religious traditions and philosophies. God is faithful to reveal them to a true believer in His own good time. In Joshua, God brought Israel out of sin but did not "drive out" all the pagan influences at once. He drove them out little by little, leaving some there to "prove them" whether they would live in obedience to God or not.

A true believer will "Seek first the Kingdom of God and God's Righteousness. He will "present his body a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is his reasonable service". No longer "conformed to this world: but become transformed by the renewing of his mind, that he may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God."

Paul is telling the Body Of Christ not to judge this person regarding man-made traditions. That this man will "learn from God" and be fully persuaded in his mind whose Word's to live by.

Through his Faith in God, he will "press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. "and if in any thing he be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto him."

In Rom. 14, Paul was talking about the days one man or another man might "Esteem" above another day. Not God's Judgments, or Days God Esteems about another, or God's commandments. Any person of Faith seeking the Righteousness of God, as Jesus instructs, would find what God deems or Esteems as Holy and would Honor and respect God in such matters, wouldn't they?

I know "many", who come in Christ's Name, and "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, separate Rom. 14 from the rest of the Bible, and then use it as justification to transgress God's commandments.

As my post said, I don't believe Paul was teaching the weak in Faith to reject God's Commandments and judgments, and I don't believe he write the chapter to justify disobedience to God..
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,599
718
66
Michigan
✟504,863.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Exodus 35:3

Exodus 16:29

In the very beginning of the Holy Scriptures, God, in His eternal Mercy, showed us how the deceiver deceives His people.

1. He professes to know God.

2. He quotes "some" of God's Word to promote the Philosophy that couldn't stand if more of God's Word was considered.

He said, "And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And sure enough, in Gen. 2: 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "saying", Of every tree of the garden "thou mayest freely eat":

Now if a person carefully selected this one verse, and used it to promote a teaching that couldn't stand if more of the Words of God were considered, they could and have been deceived in this way.

This has been repeated over and over and over through out the entire Bible, and Jesus even pointed it out about the mainstream preachers of HIS Time.

So because even a nobody like me has studied the Scriptures, I know that these verses you separated from the entire bible, to promote the teaching that God's Sabbath Commandment forbids a person to light a lamp, or start a fire on a cold day, or take a walk in fellowship with God on His Holy sabbaths and pick a blackberry is not inline with God's Teaching, in my view, even though there are "Many" who come in Christ's Name that promote just that. I think that if you were to study yourself with the purpose of SEEKING God's Truth regarding the Sabbath, you would find as I did, that God's Sabbath has a purpose, but it isn't to freeze your family or lock them up in tent or house, or starve them.

My hope is that you might do the study.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
36,808
4,998
On the bus to Heaven
✟139,443.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
In the very beginning of the Holy Scriptures, God, in His eternal Mercy, showed us how the deceiver deceives His people.

1. He professes to know God.

2. He quotes "some" of God's Word to promote the Philosophy that couldn't stand if more of God's Word was considered.

He said, "And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden?

And sure enough, in Gen. 2: 15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "saying", Of every tree of the garden "thou mayest freely eat":

Now if a person carefully selected this one verse, and used it to promote a teaching that couldn't stand if more of the Words of God were considered, they could and have been deceived in this way.

This has been repeated over and over and over through out the entire Bible, and Jesus even pointed it out about the mainstream preachers of HIS Time.

So because even a nobody like me has studied the Scriptures, I know that these verses you separated from the entire bible, to promote the teaching that God's Sabbath Commandment forbids a person to light a lamp, or start a fire on a cold day, or take a walk in fellowship with God on His Holy sabbaths and pick a blackberry is not inline with God's Teaching, in my view, even though there are "Many" who come in Christ's Name that promote just that. I think that if you were to study yourself with the purpose of SEEKING God's Truth regarding the Sabbath, you would find as I did, that God's Sabbath has a purpose, but it isn't to freeze your family or lock them up in tent or house, or starve them.

My hope is that you might do the study.
Brother, all I did was post the verses that you said were not in scripture. I provided no comment. Do with them as you will.
 
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
898
248
65
Boonsboro
✟97,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
There are 22 million SDA’s, not everyone who says they are SDA’s are. We will not be judged based on what others (preceivied) do or don’t do. We all stand before Christ based on what we do 2 Cor5:10. I do not believe He is going to cut anyone slack because one person didn’t obey therefore, it relieves our moral obligation. It’s didn’t work out that way in the days of Noah and He told us it would be similar to His Second Coming. Mat 24:37-39
Have you made it to perfection yet? Anything less is damnation. I don't think there is such a thing as passing by anything less. We must not just be similar, we must be perfect even as the father in heaven is perfect. If you have screwed up you have failed already.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,599
718
66
Michigan
✟504,863.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Brother, all I did was post the verses that you said were not in scripture. I provided no comment. Do with them as you will.
I said the Bible doesn't teach a man can't have a fire in his home or take a walk on God's Sabbath. Your 2 verses don't teach that, unless you separate them from the rest of the Bible
 
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
898
248
65
Boonsboro
✟97,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
A former SDA pastor told me there's inconsistency in that regard. It mainly seems to be about going to church on Saturday instead of Sunday, and having Saturday as a day off from your job. Those two are a must.
Unless someone can justify working on Saturday, they are expected to refrain from labor. If they are a police officer, hospital staff member, or even a janitor in a necessary role, the work is considered permissible. As long as they can show their job is essential, they are not seen as violating the Sabbath. In practice, very few churches take disciplinary action against those who break the Sabbath unless the behavior is blatant or the person is a church leader.
 
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
36,808
4,998
On the bus to Heaven
✟139,443.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
I said the Bible doesn't teach a man can't have a fire in his home or take a walk on God's Sabbath. Your 2 verses don't teach that, unless you separate them from the rest of the Bible
“You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭35‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

I don’t understand what part of not to have a fire in ANY dwelling on the Sabbath day do you not understand.


“See, the Lord has given you the Sabbath; for that reason He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain, everyone, in his place; no one is to leave his place on the seventh day.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭16‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Not to leave their place precludes them from going for a walk.

Christians are not under the law so you don’t have to follow the Jewish law. But it does say what it says.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,145
5,681
USA
✟738,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Have you made it to perfection yet? Anything less is damnation. I don't think there is such a thing as passing by anything less. We must not just be similar, we must be perfect even as the father in heaven is perfect. If you have screwed up you have failed already.
That's between me and God and what I do has no bearing on anyone else's salvation. We are not judged based on a sliding scale or based on what other people do or don't do.

God does say He has a people who overcomes, so its possible to do so, through Christ Rev14:12 if we cooperate with Him John14:15-18 but like Scripture says, not everyone wants to give up their sins John3:19-21 Pro28:13
 
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
898
248
65
Boonsboro
✟97,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes, I know which was given by Jesus through our love and obedience. Why Jesus said “and I will give you” but its based on conditions why He used If.
You added this part: through our love and obedience. In other words you are tacitly saying it is a wage and not a gift. No one counts what they earn as a gift. Worse still a wage is owed to the worker, so this means that since we loved and obeyed, God owes us the Holy Spirit. We now have leverage over God.
Yes, He is but faith does not void the law, it establishes it Rom3:31
This is beautiful. By having faith in Christ's righteousness he credits His righteousness as our own and we stand before God as perfect law keepers.

Paul concludes his explanation of justification by faith with a surprising question: “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31). Some might assume that if salvation is by grace and not by our obedience, then God’s law becomes irrelevant. Paul rejects that idea emphatically. Faith does not erase the Law. Faith restores it to its true purpose by tying it directly to the work of Christ.


The Law demands perfect righteousness. Any violation deserves condemnation (Galatians 3:10; James 2:10). If Christ simply forgave sin while the Law remained violated, He would be setting the Law aside to save us. Instead, the gospel declares that Jesus fulfilled the Law on our behalf. He obeyed perfectly (Matthew 5:17–18) and took the Law’s penalty into Himself at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). That means forgiveness does not ignore the Law; it honors the Law’s demands fully through Jesus’ finished work (Romans 8:3–4).


Faith unites us with Christ, so His obedience is credited to us as righteousness (Philippians 3:9; Romans 4:5–8). God does not compromise His standards or lower His requirements. He applies Christ’s fulfillment of the Law to believers, upholding the Law’s integrity even while pardoning sinners. The Law is satisfied, not set aside.


More than that, the Law is also established within us. Through the Holy Spirit, God writes His Law on the hearts of His people (Hebrews 8:10). We begin to walk in obedience not to earn salvation but because we have already received it. Paul explains that “the righteous requirement of the law” is fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Faith leads to transformation, not lawlessness. Grace teaches us to reject sin and pursue godliness (Titus 2:11–12).


So Romans 3:31 is a powerful reminder that justification by faith vindicates God’s Law in every way. In Christ we see the Law perfectly obeyed. At the cross we see its penalty fully executed. Through the Spirit we see its righteous principles being lived out in God’s people. Faith does not undermine the Law. Faith finally gives the Law what it has always required: perfect righteousness through Christ, and a people renewed in His image who joyfully walk in His ways.
“Sin is breaking God’s law (1 John 3:4; James 2:11) which is rebellion and unbelief.”
There is truth here. Scripture defines sin as lawlessness (1 John 3:4), and rebellion is at its core (Hebrews 3:13). Yet the biblical solution to law-breaking is not a return to the Law as the basis of righteousness, but a turning to Christ who fulfilled the Law’s requirements for us. Paul teaches that “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4). Our guilt under the Law is real, but our standing is based entirely on Christ’s obedience, not ours (Philippians 3:9).

“Would loving God with all our heart, mind and soul not include the 4 commandments that God personally wrote… I find it hard to believe they would not be included.”
Love fulfills the whole Law (Matthew 22:37–40), including everything God has ever commanded. The question is not whether the first four commandments express love for God. They do. The real question is how believers in Christ now express this love.
Jesus teaches that love is not about returning to the old covenant tablets but about abiding in Him (John 15:5, 10). Paul says believers are no longer “under the law” yet still fulfill the righteous requirement of the Law by walking in the Spirit (Romans 6:14; Romans 8:4). Faith produces the love that the Law always pointed toward (Galatians 5:6, 14, 22–23).

“He wrote them in stone for its eternal nature and then He writes His laws in our heart (2 Cor 3:3; Heb 8:10).”
Hebrews agrees that God writes His laws on our hearts, but it specifically contrasts the old covenant tablets with a new covenant that is “not like the covenant I made with their fathers” (Hebrews 8:9). The Law written on stone brings condemnation and death, which is why Paul calls it the “ministry of death… engraved in stones” (2 Corinthians 3:7). The same passage says this ministry is “passing away” (v. 11). The “law written on hearts” is a Spirit-empowered life in Christ, not a return to Sinai’s covenant.


“The first 4 commandments show how to love God and the last 6 how we love our neighbor.”
Jesus does teach that love for God and neighbor fulfills the Law, yet He also deepens the commandments far beyond their written form (Matthew 5:21–28). He fulfills them, completes them, and then gives a new commandment: “love one another as I have loved you” (John 13:34). The pattern shifts from stone to Savior.

“I didn’t say we had to overcome sin, Scripture does.”
Scripture indeed calls us to resist sin and pursue holiness (Romans 6:12–14). Yet the power to “overcome” sin comes from Christ, not from the Law. Paul says that “sin will not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace” (Romans 6:14). The Law points out sin, but only grace breaks its chains (Romans 7:7–25).
When Hebrews warns about willful sin (Hebrews 10:26–29), it addresses those rejecting Christ, not those struggling in weakness. The danger is despising the blood of the covenant, not failing to keep commandments perfectly. We are kept by Christ’s priesthood (Hebrews 7:25), not our flawless performance.

 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,145
5,681
USA
✟738,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
You added this part: through our love and obedience. In other words you are tacitly saying it is a wage and not a gift. No one counts what they earn as a gift. Worse still a wage is owed to the worker, so this means that since we loved and obeyed, God owes us the Holy Spirit. We now have leverage over God.

This is beautiful. By having faith in Christ's righteousness he credits His righteousness as our own and we stand before God as perfect law keepers.

Paul concludes his explanation of justification by faith with a surprising question: “Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.” (Romans 3:31). Some might assume that if salvation is by grace and not by our obedience, then God’s law becomes irrelevant. Paul rejects that idea emphatically. Faith does not erase the Law. Faith restores it to its true purpose by tying it directly to the work of Christ.


The Law demands perfect righteousness. Any violation deserves condemnation (Galatians 3:10; James 2:10). If Christ simply forgave sin while the Law remained violated, He would be setting the Law aside to save us. Instead, the gospel declares that Jesus fulfilled the Law on our behalf. He obeyed perfectly (Matthew 5:17–18) and took the Law’s penalty into Himself at the cross (2 Corinthians 5:21). That means forgiveness does not ignore the Law; it honors the Law’s demands fully through Jesus’ finished work (Romans 8:3–4).


Faith unites us with Christ, so His obedience is credited to us as righteousness (Philippians 3:9; Romans 4:5–8). God does not compromise His standards or lower His requirements. He applies Christ’s fulfillment of the Law to believers, upholding the Law’s integrity even while pardoning sinners. The Law is satisfied, not set aside.


More than that, the Law is also established within us. Through the Holy Spirit, God writes His Law on the hearts of His people (Hebrews 8:10). We begin to walk in obedience not to earn salvation but because we have already received it. Paul explains that “the righteous requirement of the law” is fulfilled in those who walk according to the Spirit (Romans 8:4). Faith leads to transformation, not lawlessness. Grace teaches us to reject sin and pursue godliness (Titus 2:11–12).


So Romans 3:31 is a powerful reminder that justification by faith vindicates God’s Law in every way. In Christ we see the Law perfectly obeyed. At the cross we see its penalty fully executed. Through the Spirit we see its righteous principles being lived out in God’s people. Faith does not undermine the Law. Faith finally gives the Law what it has always required: perfect righteousness through Christ, and a people renewed in His image who joyfully walk in His ways.
We are saved by grace though faith. I do not believe faith mean being disobedient to God. Luk 6:46 Mat 7:21-23 but I guess one can test this theory and see what happens.
 
Upvote 0

Studyman

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Apr 18, 2020
2,599
718
66
Michigan
✟504,863.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
“You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭35‬:‭3‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

I don’t understand what part of not to have a fire in ANY dwelling on the Sabbath day do you



What part of this verse don't you understand?



“See, the Lord has given you the Sabbath; for that reason He gives you bread for two days on the sixth day. Remain, everyone, in his place; no one is to leave his place on the seventh day.””
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭16‬:‭29‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Not to leave their place precludes them from going for a walk.

I doubt that you will answer my questions from past experience, but I will ask anyway.

How did the people get from their homes to the Temple on the Sabbath days?

In your understanding, did they all have to break the Sabbath to walk to the Temple to listen to the Priests read Moses?


Christians are not under the law so you don’t have to follow the Jewish law. But it does say what it says.

The Jewish law was not Gods law. Jesus Himself said they taught for doctrines the commandments of men. Do you not believe Him? So I agree that men are not now, nor have they ever been "under Jewish Law".

Jesus broke "Jewish Law", but never God's Law, unless you are accusing Him of being a Sinner.

I think, given all the warnings of false teachings from men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, we should at least study all that Gods Word teaches about any subject. Not just one sentence separated from the rest of the Bible.

Unless our goal here is not seeking Gods Truth, but justifying specific popular religious philosophy.

Jesus didn't Transgress Gods Commandments. And yet the mainstream preachers of His time and mine, work to convince as many as they can, that He did.

Think about that brother.
 
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
898
248
65
Boonsboro
✟97,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
We are saved by grace though faith. I do not believe faith mean being disobedient to God. Luk 6:46 Mat 7:21-23 but I guess one can test this theory and see what happens.
We are saved through faith in God’s promises of grace (Ephesians 2:8–9). The idea that this grace would promote disobedience misunderstands its very nature. Why would I ever encourage rebellion against the God who has given me victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)? I stand before God justified, as though I had never sinned, because Christ stood in my place as the One upon whom the Lord laid the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:5–6; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Such an astonishing act of self-giving love does not lead the believer into carelessness. Grace does not license sin. It produces a deeper love and devotion to the One who loved us first (1 John 4:19). Our obedience now flows from love, not fear, since perfect love drives out fear and punishment (1 John 4:18). Faith does not nullify
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

Hentenza

I will fear no evil for You are with me
Site Supporter
Mar 27, 2007
36,808
4,998
On the bus to Heaven
✟139,443.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Baptist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others

What part of this verse don't you understand?
And how does that relate to the verses that you ignored?
I doubt that you will answer my questions from past experience, but I will ask anyway.

How did the people get from their homes to the Temple on the Sabbath days?
They erected tents. It is in scripture you know.
In your understanding, did they all have to break the Sabbath to walk to the Temple to listen to the Priests read Moses?
Nope. See above.

There. I answered your questions.
The Jewish law was not Gods law.
“Now the rest of the people, the priests, the Levites, the gatekeepers, the singers, the temple servants, and all those who had separated themselves from the peoples of the lands to the Law of God, their wives, their sons, and their daughters, all those who had knowledge and understanding, are joining with their kinsmen, their nobles, and are taking on themselves a curse and an oath to walk in God’s Law, which was given through Moses, God’s servant, and to keep and to comply with all the commandments of God our Lord, and His ordinances and statutes; and that we will not give our daughters to the peoples of the land or take their daughters for our sons.”
‭‭Nehemiah‬ ‭10‬:‭28‬-‭30‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

You sure about that?
Jesus Himself said they taught for doctrines the commandments of men. Do you not believe Him? So I agree that men are not now, nor have they ever been "under Jewish Law".
The Pharisees? Of course they did which is why Jesus would correct them and why they eventually crucified Him.
Jesus broke "Jewish Law", but never God's Law, unless you are accusing Him of being a Sinner.
Jesus NEVER broke a single law. Jesus taught the Pharisees and Sadducees HOW to properly keep the law.
I think, given all the warnings of false teachings from men who call Jesus Lord, Lord, we should at least study all that Gods Word teaches about any subject. Not just one sentence separated from the rest of the Bible.
So who are those with false teachings?
Unless our goal here is not seeking Gods Truth, but justifying specific popular religious philosophy.
I like scripture.
Jesus didn't Transgress Gods Commandments. And yet the mainstream preachers of His time and mine, work to convince as many as they can, that He did.
Jesus did not transgress any law or commandment. None.
Think about that brother.
I have. Now is your turn.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,145
5,681
USA
✟738,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
We are saved through faith in God’s promises of grace (Ephesians 2:8–9). The idea that this grace would promote disobedience misunderstands its very nature. Why would I ever encourage rebellion against the God who has given me victory through our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 15:57)? I stand before God justified, as though I had never sinned, because Christ stood in my place as the One upon whom the Lord laid the iniquity of us all (Isaiah 53:5–6; 2 Corinthians 5:21).

Such an astonishing act of self-giving love does not lead the believer into carelessness. Grace does not license sin. It produces a deeper love and devotion to the One who loved us first (1 John 4:19). Our obedience now flows from love, not fear, since perfect love drives out fear and punishment (1 John 4:18). Faith does not nullify
If that's the case why would anyone be arguing against obeying God's Ten Commandments, His own Testimony. Its nonsensical . We are told those who do not subject themselves to the law of God are those in rebellion Rom8:7-8
 
  • Like
Reactions: Jerry N.
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
898
248
65
Boonsboro
✟97,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If that's the case why would anyone be arguing against obeying God's Ten Commandments. Its nonsensical .
Perhaps some writings are genuinely critical of God’s law, but most of what I read is not an argument against the law itself—it is an argument against attempting to earn salvation through the law (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20). There is also a pushback against the reductionist idea that the Ten Commandments alone constitute the entirety of God’s law. The Law of God is far greater than that; it encompasses much more than a set of rules (Matthew 5:17–19).

What, then, are the weightier matters of the law? When we read the Sermon on the Mount, we see that God calls us to understand the spirit of the law rather than merely its letter (Matthew 5:21–48). It is sinful to judge fellow Christians on their commitment and love for Christ according to our own standards (Romans 14:4–13). Even Sabbath keepers can quarrel among themselves over how strictly they observe the day. If we are willing to extend grace and understanding to fellow Sabbatarians in how they observe the Sabbath, why should we not also extend that same grace to our fellow Christians who may understand or practice the law differently?

History reminds us that it was the strict Sabbatarians of Christ’s day who labeled Him a scofflaw and accused Him of breaking the Sabbath (Mark 2:23–28; Luke 6:1–5). Grace, discernment, and love must guide our interactions, not rigid judgment.
 
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,145
5,681
USA
✟738,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Perhaps some writings are genuinely critical of God’s law, but most of what I read is not an argument against the law itself
Hmm, we must have a different understanding. I personally would never spend my time arguing against something I am really for. If this is the case for you, I will probably move on after this post, because it’s not a good way to spend my time.
it is an argument against attempting to earn salvation through the law (Galatians 2:16; Romans 3:20).
Agreed no one earns salvation by keeping any law. The law is kept as a result of ones heart being changed by Christ and keeping God’s commandments are a consequence of salvation, not a means to it. Rev 14:12 Why God’s laws are perfect for converting the soul Psa19:7 its obeying by faith that saves, the action is a consequence of that faith, and shows if our faith is genuine or not.
There is also a pushback against the reductionist idea that the Ten Commandments alone constitute the entirety of God’s law. The Law of God is far greater than that; it encompasses much more than a set of rules (Matthew 5:17–19). What, then, are the weightier matters of the law? When we read the Sermon on the Mount, we see that God calls us to understand the spirit of the law rather than merely its letter (Matthew 5:21–48)
Agreed, but no one is keeping the spiritual aspect of the law by breaking the actual law itself. As Jesus demonstrated from the Ten Commandments Mat5:19-30
. It is sinful to judge fellow Christians on their commitment and love for Christ according to our own standards (Romans 14:4–13)
Its not our standards that matters it God’s standards. Showing what God’s Word says (His standards) is not judging. Its hoping one would consider His word.

. Even Sabbath keepers can quarrel among themselves over how strictly they observe the day.
Again, we should look to God’s standards not ours on how to keep the Sabbath, the Sabbath commandment did not go undefined by God. Exo20:8-11 Isa58:13 Lev 23:3 as its been pointed out a few times now.
If we are willing to extend grace and understanding to fellow Sabbatarians in how they observe the Sabbath, why should we not also extend that same grace to our fellow Christians who may understand or practice the law differently?
There is not two ways to practice the law. God never gave us the Ten Commandments and said now you pick the ones you wish to practice, they were never called the Ten recommendations or the Ten suggestions. A commandment is just that. And by faith we should obey even if it doesn’t always make sense to us, but trust God has a perfect plan and knows what He is doing.
History reminds us that it was the strict Sabbatarians of Christ’s day who labeled Him a scofflaw and accused Him of breaking the Sabbath (Mark 2:23–28; Luke 6:1–5). Grace, discernment, and love must guide our interactions, not rigid judgment.
You are referring to the Pharisees who were not keeping God’s Sabbath, their were keeping their own manmade sabbath that sadly man does today , they just apply it to a different day that God never sanctified for holy use, but said it was for works and labors. Exo 20:9

I think we need to get back to God’s standards of righteousness Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2 as His is everlasting Psa 119:142 and not fall back on depending on our own version of what is right or wrong. Our righteousness (version of right or wrong) is as filthy rags. It’s best to let God be God and serve and obey Him, the way He said through love and faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
15,814
10,524
79
Auckland
✟450,150.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Man didn't replace God, he was given the freedom to value the days or not as he pleases - and no one should be judging him for it.

This is what Romans 14 is saying - read it as a whole...

14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions.
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But as for you, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or you as well, why do you regard your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hentenza
Upvote 0

SabbathBlessings

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Jun 12, 2020
14,145
5,681
USA
✟738,336.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Man didn't replace God, he was given the freedom to value the days or not as he pleases - and no one should be judging him for it.

This is what Romans 14 is saying - read it as a whole...

14 Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions.
2 One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.
3 The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him.
4 Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

5 One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.
6 The one who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and the one who eats, does so with regard to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and the one who does not eat, it is for the Lord that he does not eat, and he gives thanks to God.
7 For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself;
8 for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s.
9 For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

10 But as for you, why do you judge your brother or sister? Or you as well, why do you regard your brother or sister with contempt? For we will all appear before the judgment seat of God.
It’s sets the stage in the very first verse of what it’s about. Human disputes over opinions of man.

Rom 14:1. Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not to have quarrels over opinions.

When did God’s commandments become an opinion of man? Shall we apply this to the commandment to only worship God. Or the commandment to not steal from our neighbor. Is this just opinions of man?

One person has faith that he may eat all things, but the one who is weak eats only vegetables.

Where in the Sabbath commandment or in any of the Ten Commandments says we should only eat vegetables?

One person values one day over another, another values every day the same. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

When does what man/ person esteems trumps what God esteems? Isa 58:13 Exo20:18 Exo31:18 When did man become above God. It’s not something I have ever came across in my studies of God’s word, just the opposite. Isa 55:8-9


Brother, you are reading what you want into this passage they are debating opinions of man, not if they should or should not obey God’s commandments that Jesus ratified by His blood at the Cross.

Why the Sabbath is not mentioned once in this whole passage and best to not add what’s not there.

If we think man trumps what God says and we can now just arbitrarily decide which commandments we should keep or not keep, sadly we are going to be serving another master, because whoever we obey is who we serve Rom6:16. Jesus asks us to get back to worshipping the God of Creation Rev 14:7 which points us back to the 4th commandment Exo20:11, the one commandment God said Remember, ironically its the one man wants to forget for some strange reason when it points to God our Creator Exo20:11 God our Sanctifier Eze20:12 and a sign between God and His people Eze20:20 so I can see why this commandment is attacked so much, we just need to decide which side of the battle we are going to be on once He returns our decisions are sealed Rev22:11

I can show you in context what this passage is referring to in Corinthians and its nothing about the Sabbath commandment. It’s why we are warned to be careful with Paul’s writings, it actually came with a salvation warning. Paul was not chosen to change God’s times and laws, that is the one who is against Christ Dan7:25 Paul came after Jesus ratified His covenant, in order to make a change to God’s covenant, would require the sacrifice of Jesus all over again. Paul was chosen to spread the gospel, not alter the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 Deut4:13 God said He would not alter Psa89:34
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Mercy Shown

Well-Known Member
Jan 18, 2019
898
248
65
Boonsboro
✟97,288.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hmm, we must have a different understanding. I personally would never spend my time arguing against something I am really for. If this is the case for you, I will probably move on after this post, because it’s not a good way to spend my time.
Agreed no one earns salvation by keeping any law. The law is kept as a result of ones heart being changed by Christ and keeping God’s commandments are a consequence of salvation, not a means to it. Rev 14:12 Why God’s laws are perfect for converting the soul Psa19:7 its obeying by faith that saves, the action is a consequence of that faith, and shows if our faith is genuine or not.
“Keeping the Law” means different things to different people. Some think it refers only to the Ten Commandments, while others believe it includes the immediate commands of the Holy Spirit and is therefore much broader than the Ten Commandments. But the fact remains that for the born-again believer, sin is no longer primarily about the Law—it is about a Person: Jesus Christ.

Scripture plainly teaches that believers in Christ are no longer under the Law as a covenant or as a means of righteousness before God. Paul states directly, “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace” (Romans 6:14), and again, “If you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law” (Galatians 5:18). To be “under the Law” is to be under its condemnation and jurisdiction as the system that determines one’s standing before God. That entire system has been replaced.

The Law was given for a temporary purpose—to point forward to Christ. Paul explains, “The law was our tutor to bring us to Christ… but after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor” (Galatians 3:24–25). Christ is the fulfillment and goal of the Law, for “Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes” (Romans 10:4). Once the promised Savior arrived, the tutor’s role was complete.

In our union with Christ, believers have died to the Law’s authority. “You also have become dead to the law through the body of Christ… that you may be married to another” (Romans 7:4). A death changes legal jurisdiction—just as the law of marriage no longer governs a widow, so the Law of Moses no longer governs those joined to Christ by faith.

Because of this, righteousness no longer comes through law-keeping but through Jesus Christ alone. Paul insists that we “are not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ” (Galatians 2:16), and warns that if righteousness were still attainable through the Law, “then Christ died in vain” (Galatians 2:21). The cross nullifies any attempt to earn acceptance before God through commandments.

This transition from Law to Christ reflects the major shift in redemptive history—the new covenant has replaced the old. Hebrews 8:13 says that by establishing a “new covenant,” Christ has made the first “obsolete.” Hebrews 10:9 adds, “He takes away the first that He may establish the second.” The covenantal system in which the Law operated has been decisively superseded by the work and authority of Christ.

Therefore, Christians do not live lawlessly—we live under a new and better authority: the law of Christ, empowered by the Holy Spirit. “The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death” (Romans 8:2). As we bear one another’s burdens, we “fulfill the law of Christ” (Galatians 6:2). The Spirit writes God’s moral will on our hearts and empowers what the old covenant could only demand externally.

Sin still exists, because at its root sin is rebellion against God’s authority. But Jesus Christ takes us beyond mere law-keeping into true holiness—holiness not measured by the Law but by God Himself. He leads us not into a life obsessed with rules, but into a life transformed by His presence, reflecting His character, and empowered by His grace.

Agreed, but no one is keeping the spiritual aspect of the law by breaking the actual law itself. As Jesus demonstrated from the Ten Commandments Mat5:19-30
One can't break what they are no longer under. What we are under is greater than the law. Looking at the law all the time means we are not looking at Christ the real author and finisher of our faith.
Its not our standards that matters it God’s standards. Showing what God’s Word says (His standards) is not judging. Its hoping one would consider His word.
God is not a bean counter that holds us up to His standard. God is our good father. If you have kids, do you put yur standard above them? He is not one who says love me or else I will kill you, He is a father calling the spiritually dead back to life. If they refuse He will not force them.

Christ came to reveal the Father to us, something the law can only dimmly filicker at. We have the law giver now instead of the law.
Again, we should look to God’s standards not ours on how to keep the Sabbath, the Sabbath commandment did not go undefined by God. Exo20:8-11 Isa58:13 Lev 23:3 as its been pointed out a few times now.
It does not address some of our modern life styles. For instance, do you purchase electricity on the sabbath? If use any type of electricity, then you do. Do you run your furnace in the winter at your house? You are violating the 4th commandment if you do. We could go on but as you can see it is not as easy as one would think unless they thought that they had it right and everyne elsehad it wrong.
There is not two ways to practice the law. God never gave us the Ten Commandments and said now you pick the ones you wish to practice, they were never called the Ten recommendations or the Ten suggestions. A commandment is just that. And by faith we should obey even if it doesn’t always make sense to us, but trust God has a perfect plan and knows what He is doing.
Do you have picture or sculptures in your house. That is violating the 2 command. You might say that that is way too petty--well there you go interpreting how you're going to keep the law. Thou shall not kill. What about mice, or mosquitoes? If you say those are Ok to kill, then you have interpreted the law in a way that makes sense to you.
You are referring to the Pharisees who were not keeping God’s Sabbath, their were keeping their own manmade sabbath that sadly man does today , they just apply it to a different day that God never sanctified for holy use, but said it was for works and labors. Exo 20:9
And you think that this is not possible even in this day in age. Examine your own feelings. Do you feel more knowledgeable, more obedient, mor righteous than a person who keeps Sunday? If you don't, if you actually feel shoulder to shoulder with your fellow sunday keeping christians, then why spend time critiquing their law keeping?

The pharasees felt that they were just as good if not better at keeping the law than you or I. So, what is the difference? What makes your sabbath keeping superior to theirs?
I think we need to get back to God’s standards of righteousness Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-2 as His is everlasting Psa 119:142 and not fall back on depending on our own version of what is right or wrong.
You can't help it. No human can. We all are prone to think that we have it right and those who see it differently have it wrong. But the bible says that we each fall or rise to our owmn master.
Our righteousness (version of right or wrong) is as filthy rags. It’s best to let God be God and serve and obey Him, the way He said through love and faith.
Even then it is still like filthy rags. What we need is Christ's righteousness which takes us beyond the mere keeping of the Ten Commandments to fellowship With Christ as our elder brother and God Almaighty as our Loving Father.
 
  • Winner
Reactions: Carl Emerson
Upvote 0

Carl Emerson

Well-Known Member
Dec 18, 2017
15,814
10,524
79
Auckland
✟450,150.00
Country
New Zealand
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It’s sets the stage in the very first verse of what it’s about. Human disputes over opinions of man.

Incorrect - it is talking about faith which is given to persons in different measures.
 
Upvote 0