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gluadys

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I wasn't talking about someone claiming to be saved, but someone who genuinely is saved.

A person who is genuinely saved will exhibit the behaviour that goes with being saved. It is like Melethiel says: a difference between the English and the Greek. Modern English restricts "belief" to a mental evaluation of statements as true or false (or "don't know"). But belief in the biblical sense is inseparable from living the belief.

Sure it is. I believe in common descent, but that's never affected my actions.

See above. You "believe" in the sense of having evaluated this as true. But that is trivial. If you believed in it biblically, it would affect your actions.


On the contrary, the god of the Bible is omnipotent: they are unnecessary.

That's a non-sequitor answer. I would call it a "wrong end of the telescope" answer.



In order to know how to believe/act as a saved person.


And how does one garner God's grace? From what I've heard, God loves each and every one of us, so it sounds like we're already in his good graces.

Just as the Prodigal Son was already in his Father's good graces while he squandered the family fortune. But he had to come home to be saved.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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A person who is genuinely saved will exhibit the behaviour that goes with being saved. It is like Melethiel says: a difference between the English and the Greek. Modern English restricts "belief" to a mental evaluation of statements as true or false (or "don't know"). But belief in the biblical sense is inseparable from living the belief.
Then it helps if such terms could be distinguished. Equivocation is an underhanded trick.

See above. You "believe" in the sense of having evaluated this as true. But that is trivial. If you believed in it biblically, it would affect your actions.
Which does not, I think, make sense. Could you elaborate on what it means to believe in something Biblically. For instance, my belief in common descent does affect my actions to a small degree: I am using it as an example in this conversation of ours.

That's a non-sequitor answer. I would call it a "wrong end of the telescope" answer.
You said "Because they are no more arbitrary than gravity." They are arbitrary because, by God's omnipotence, he could achieve the same results by an infinite number of alternate paths, with infinite more efficiency. Unless the covenant is an ends unto itself, which just raises more questions.

In order to know how to believe/act as a saved person.
But surely any action enacted by a saved person is, by definition, how a person acts. If they are getting their guidance from the Bible, then they are acting as if they were saved, not because they are saved.

Just as the Prodigal Son was already in his Father's good graces while he squandered the family fortune. But he had to come home to be saved.
But why? God is omnipotent, after all.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Christianity does not tie itself into neat scientific categories.
Sure it does: for any given denomination, it can be categorised according to a plethora of criteria. Most are monotheisms, for instance.

Everything is all interconnected. You cannot be saved without exhibiting fruit (actions, prayer, study). (my paraphrase) "If anyone does not produce fruit, they are a dead branch, and will be cut off from the Vine."
Why?

Again, we run into the translation problem here. The modern connotation of the English "believe" is very passive, implying head knowledge. However, the Greek "pisteuo" has a far more active connotation. It implies action on this belief (consider: the same root used in this word forms the roots of such English words like "piston" and "pistol" - a driving force). Moreover, the form in which this action reveals itself is important - Scripture also says "even the demons believe in Him and shudder." This is NOT to say that one can earn God's good graces by being a good person (such is antithetical to Christianity), but that a faith which does not express itself through action (charity, study of the Scripture [which is very central, as it was in Judaism as well, from which Christianity sprung], partaking of the Sacraments, and prayer), then it is no faith at all.
Then the text is translated poorly. The English verb 'to believe' is not the synonymous with the translated word in the NT: to believe something is to think it is true. No more, no less.

The point is that we are speaking modern English; it doesn't help to invoke archaic words and phrases to obfuscate the debate. It's effectively sophistry.

Sure, if God chose, he could have snapped his fingers. However, that is not how the covenant is laid out. We may not know why God chose to do things a certain way, but that doesn't give us liberty to disregard because we think we know better.
Actually, it does: this world is exactly the way he wants it to be. Reality must be exactly the way the local omnipotence wants it to be. The question, then, is whether the world is compatible with the wants and desired espoused by, or ascribed to, said omnipotence.

That is, the Bible details a variety of God's wants and desires. By the nature of God's omnipotence, these wants and desires must be fulfilled and accomplished. But reality does not reflect such a world. Thus, we have the liberty (and, indeed, the obligation) to disregard some or all of the Bible.

The human nature is fickle. Without constant ground in the Scripture, one is apt to go astray.
And who's fault is that?

God extends His grace to all, but humans are free to reject it.
Then how does one accept said grace?
 
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Melethiel

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Sure it does: for any given denomination, it can be categorised according to a plethora of criteria. Most are monotheisms, for instance.
I was not speaking of different denominations, but of the tenents of Christianity itself.
Then the text is translated poorly. The English verb 'to believe' is not the synonymous with the translated word in the NT: to believe something is to think it is true. No more, no less.

The point is that we are speaking modern English; it doesn't help to invoke archaic words and phrases to obfuscate the debate. It's effectively sophistry.
There are ALWAYS problems in translating from one language to another - that is why Bible studies and such are so important. There is simply no simple equivalent word in English. Moreover, if the Scriptures are read as a whole, the idea that faith produces action is quite clear. It is only when pitting one verse against another that we run into problems.
That is, the Bible details a variety of God's wants and desires. By the nature of God's omnipotence, these wants and desires must be fulfilled and accomplished. But reality does not reflect such a world. Thus, we have the liberty (and, indeed, the obligation) to disregard some or all of the Bible.
Okay, let me state it the other way. Sure, we have the liberty to disregard the Scripture...but is that the right thing to do? Or will it only land us into trouble?
And who's fault is that?
Man's.
Then how does one accept said grace?
By ceasing to reject it.
 
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Tinker Grey

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How does one reject what doesn't believe in?

How does one trust a being that one doesn't believe exists?

How does one begin believing in a being that one didn't previous believe existed?

[aside]
I don't know how they're going to enforce rules around here, but I think we are straying into areas more suitable for GA.
[/aside]
 
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gluadys

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Then it helps if such terms could be distinguished. Equivocation is an underhanded trick.

They can be distinguished and will be in any good bible study or sermon. Similarly English has only one word "love" where Greek distingushes between 'eros' 'philios' and 'agape'. We get along most of the time without worrying about the equivocation of referring to sexual desire, friendship and compassion by the same word. But sometimes it is necessary to distinguish.

The different meanings of "belief" in English are sometimes distinguished in the phrases "believe that...[X is a true proposition]" and "believe in (i.e. trust/have confidence in) X)" X in this case usually being a person. This isn't hard and fast either, but most biblical references to faith are more toward the second than the first. Certainly what Christians call saving faith is the latter.

Another way to put it is that faith is not just a matter of what one believes is true, but a matter of who/what one is willing to commit to.


You said "Because they are no more arbitrary than gravity." They are arbitrary because, by God's omnipotence, he could achieve the same results by an infinite number of alternate paths, with infinite more efficiency. Unless the covenant is an ends unto itself, which just raises more questions.

First I don't see what God's omnipotence has to do with it. That's part of the "wrong end of the telescope" sort of perspective I was referring to. Second, I think it is an assumption that one can achieve the same results by an infinite number of alternate paths. All roads do not lead to the same ends even for God.

I expect the communication block here is a matter of differing views of what salvation is and whose benefit it is for. What does it mean to you to be saved?


But surely any action enacted by a saved person is, by definition, how a person acts.

No, not necessarily. Consider the commitment aspect of faith. The fact one has made a commitment to follow Christ, doesn't lead to instantly knowing what that commitment will call for in the future. Or for oneself as opposed to others. At one interfaith gathering, a preacher spoke of meeting with a minister from another denomination. The other preacher was horrified that our speaker was a smoker; but our speaker was shocked that when the other mentioned that he and his wife normally went to a restaurant for lunch on Sunday. The latter violated his Sabbatarian principles.

So, one has committed one's life to Christ. Does that mean one must stop smoking? Does that mean one must begin tithing? Does that mean one should change one's career plan from accounting to theology? There are no hard and fast answers to questions like these. And maybe all this is just legalism. If one person tithes and abstains from tobacco and alcohol, but also beats his wife, while another smokes and drinks while volunteering at a food bank, which is the more faithful Christian? And what if the volunteer at the food bank beats his wife when he goes home?

It only takes a minute to commit one's life to Christ; it can take a lifetime to figure out how to put that commitment into practice.

If they are getting their guidance from the Bible, then they are acting as if they were saved, not because they are saved.

If they are acting as if they were saved, they probably are saved. The natural human tendency is to act otherwise.


But why? God is omnipotent, after all.

What does omnipotence have to do with it? Would the son have been reconciled to his father if his father had gone and dragged him home against his will?

The father's love and welcome were always there, but the son is not saved as long as he wants nothing to do with his father. He has to want to come home.
 
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shernren

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Rulez, Tinker Grey? We zon't needz no rulez!

^^

I like how Brian McLaren defines "faith":

Faith is a state
of relative certainty
about matters of ultimate concern
sufficient to promote action.

This is set out in his book Finding Faith: A Search for What Makes Sense.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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I was not speaking of different denominations, but of the tenents of Christianity itself.
Nevertheless, even they can be categorised.

There are ALWAYS problems in translating from one language to another - that is why Bible studies and such are so important. There is simply no simple equivalent word in English.
Then translate it with a phrase. The point of a translation is to convey the meaning.

Moreover, if the Scriptures are read as a whole, the idea that faith produces action is quite clear. It is only when pitting one verse against another that we run into problems.
Don't tell me you're going to pull out the old "You need spiritual eyes to read the Bible properly" chestnut ^_^.

Okay, let me state it the other way. Sure, we have the liberty to disregard the Scripture...but is that the right thing to do?

Or will it only land us into trouble?
I don't see how.

Ah, yes, of course, because it was man who made man in his own image.

My point was that, in Christian mythology, man's nature was determined entirely by God. If God wanted to create a race of beings who could choose to love him, then such a race would exist. If God wanted said race to choose to love him, they would choose to love him.

By ceasing to reject it.
Sigh.

"Then by what criteria does one garner entrance [into Heaven]?"
"By the grace of God."
"And how does one garner God's grace?"
"God extends His grace to all, but humans are free to reject it."
" Then how does one accept said grace?"
" By ceasing to reject it."

And how does one do that? Indeed, how does one reject something one doesn't even believe in? It seems that you have to be saved to be saved.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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They can be distinguished and will be in any good bible study or sermon. Similarly English has only one word "love" where Greek distingushes between 'eros' 'philios' and 'agape'. We get along most of the time without worrying about the equivocation of referring to sexual desire, friendship and compassion by the same word. But sometimes it is necessary to distinguish.
Then distinguish. It would save us frivolous semantics in the future.

The different meanings of "belief" in English are sometimes distinguished in the phrases "believe that...[X is a true proposition]" and "believe in (i.e. trust/have confidence in) X)"
I disagree.
The latter is shorthand for the former: "I believe in X" means "I think X is true".
To say "I believe you can do it", say, is shorthand for "I believe the statement "You can/will do it" is true".
To say "I believe in Shiva", on the other hand, is shorthand for "I believe the statement "Shiva exists" is true".

X in this case usually being a person. This isn't hard and fast either, but most biblical references to faith are more toward the second than the first. Certainly what Christians call saving faith is the latter.
So faith is just having confidence?

Another way to put it is that faith is not just a matter of what one believes is true, but a matter of who/what one is willing to commit to.
Like martyrdom, for instance?

First I don't see what God's omnipotence has to do with it.
His omnipotence allows his to choose any possible means to achieve his goals. The only non-arbitrary choice is the logical one (presumably, the most efficient one). Since this is not the case, the convenant is arbitrary.

That's part of the "wrong end of the telescope" sort of perspective I was referring to.
I'm not sure what that means.

Second, I think it is an assumption that one can achieve the same results by an infinite number of alternate paths. All roads do not lead to the same ends even for God.
Then God is not omnipotent.

I expect the communication block here is a matter of differing views of what salvation is and whose benefit it is for. What does it mean to you to be saved?
If my understanding of Christianity serves, to be 'saved' effectively allows one entrance into the kingdom of heaven. One is saved from damnation, as it were.

No, not necessarily. Consider the commitment aspect of faith. The fact one has made a commitment to follow Christ, doesn't lead to instantly knowing what that commitment will call for in the future. Or for oneself as opposed to others. At one interfaith gathering, a preacher spoke of meeting with a minister from another denomination. The other preacher was horrified that our speaker was a smoker; but our speaker was shocked that when the other mentioned that he and his wife normally went to a restaurant for lunch on Sunday. The latter violated his Sabbatarian principles.

So, one has committed one's life to Christ. Does that mean one must stop smoking? Does that mean one must begin tithing? Does that mean one should change one's career plan from accounting to theology? There are no hard and fast answers to questions like these. And maybe all this is just legalism. If one person tithes and abstains from tobacco and alcohol, but also beats his wife, while another smokes and drinks while volunteering at a food bank, which is the more faithful Christian? And what if the volunteer at the food bank beats his wife when he goes home?

It only takes a minute to commit one's life to Christ; it can take a lifetime to figure out how to put that commitment into practice.
So... salvation is dependant on ones works?

If they are acting as if they were saved, they probably are saved. The natural human tendency is to act otherwise.
Exactly: the person wants to be saved, so acts as if they are saved. But, unless one's actions garners salvation, it's futile.

What does omnipotence have to do with it? Would the son have been reconciled to his father if his father had gone and dragged him home against his will?
If the father was omnipotent? Yes.

The father's love and welcome were always there, but the son is not saved as long as he wants nothing to do with his father. He has to want to come home.
And if the father is omnipotent, then the father's wishes will come to pass.
 
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gluadys

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So faith is just having confidence?

Why do you say "just" as if this were a trivial thing? There is a good deal more to having confidence, whether in oneself or another, than in simply giving (or refusing) mental assent to a proposition. Having confidence in someone else includes allowing oneself to be vulnerable in respect of that person. That is not a trivial thing. Kierkegaard described this confidence as being suspended above 40,000 fathoms of ocean and daring to let go of one's tether in the trust that God will catch you before you hit the water.


Like martyrdom, for instance?

Yes, for instance.


His omnipotence allows his to choose any possible means to achieve his goals. The only non-arbitrary choice is the logical one (presumably, the most efficient one). Since this is not the case, the convenant is arbitrary.

I beg to differ. The covenant is the logical choice and is therefore non-arbitrary.

I'm not sure what that means.

It means your focus is backwards about. You are looking at God as if he were a big bully in the sky instead of looking at humankind and its needs as God sees them. So you present salvation as something external to a person: a sort of prize to be won at the end of some obstacle course instead of seeing it as a different interior quality of life in relationship to God.


Then God is not omnipotent.

Maybe. I think omnipotence is overrated anyway. It is only one attribute of God and there are others that are emphasized more in scripture, such as love, goodness and holiness. I think God is omnipotent in that God can do whatever he chooses to do. But his choices will accord with his nature, and that precludes some actions as being incompatible with his love, his justice, etc. He will not choose these actions, so even if he is technically capable of them, they are out of bounds as it were.

It is also generally supposed that God is a rational entity, though his logic may be beyond our understanding. So irrational actions are also out of bounds.

If these are impediments on omnipotence, so be it.


If my understanding of Christianity serves, to be 'saved' effectively allows one entrance into the kingdom of heaven. One is saved from damnation, as it were.

Even more importantly, it allows the kingdom of heaven entrance into the person. As Jesus said: "the kingdom of heaven is within you."


So... salvation is dependant on ones works?

Not precisely. This is where one gets into deep Pauline theology, and it is not simple. Salvation is not dependent on one's works in the sense that there is some kind of formula: "Be kind to orphans, tithe, don't smoke or commit adultery, etc. etc. etc.... and you will be saved." Salvation is not a reward for good behaviour. But at the same time, salvation is inseparable from good behaviour. "Faith without works is dead." as James said. "Show me your faith without works: I will show you my faith by my works."

Anyone can rhyme off a list of things it is good to do. But the spirit in which they are done is important. Jesus and Paul both opposed the legalistic attitude of the Pharisees for two reasons: they did what was good (works of the law) not for the good of doing them, but as means to another end (salvation). And they became both proud of themselves and judgmental of "sinners" because they kept the law so much more perfectly than others. At least in letter. Works are connected to salvation not as a means of earning salvation, but because of the difference in spirit in which they are performed. Good works are done for their own sake, because they are good, and flow from a natural love of goodness such as is found in God's own nature. They express the inner nature of the person who does the good works, just as God's good works express God's nature. And this includes kindness to others out of genuine love and compassion for the other. Not like the Pharisee blowing his trumpet as he gives alms to a beggar that he doesn't even see as a person--only as a means to his own perfection.

This transformation of the inner nature from the egotism exemplified by the Pharisees, to one from which love and goodness flow as a matter of course is the essence of salvation. That person has already the kingdom of heaven within them. And that is what it means to be saved.

Exactly: the person wants to be saved, so acts as if they are saved.

And so they are saved: not by their works, but by the fact they want salvation.


If the father was omnipotent? Yes.

How can reconciliation be forced against the son's will? Would it not require the obliteration of the son's will? And would that not destroy the son as a person? This is where we come up against those things that, though they may lie technically within God's power, lie outside the bounds of what God will choose to do as they do not accord with his nature and will. It is not logical to destroy who a person is in order to "save" them. For then, what is "saved" is not the person--not even a person.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Why do you say "just" as if this were a trivial thing? There is a good deal more to having confidence, whether in oneself or another, than in simply giving (or refusing) mental assent to a proposition. Having confidence in someone else includes allowing oneself to be vulnerable in respect of that person. That is not a trivial thing.
Within human scope, no, it's not trivial. Apart from that, however, it is trivial: confidence doesn't save the parachutist, but rather the parachute does.

Kierkegaard described this confidence as being suspended above 40,000 fathoms of ocean and daring to let go of one's tether in the trust that God will catch you before you hit the water.
I would call that insanity.

I beg to differ. The covenant is the logical choice and is therefore non-arbitrary.
Can you explain why the covenant is the logical choice?

It means your focus is backwards about. You are looking at God as if he were a big bully in the sky instead of looking at humankind and its needs as God sees them. So you present salvation as something external to a person: a sort of prize to be won at the end of some obstacle course instead of seeing it as a different interior quality of life in relationship to God.
I'm talking about the 'stop being hell-bound, start being heaven-bound' kind of salvation. And yes, I do consider the God depicted by the Bible to be a type of 'sky bully'.

Maybe. I think omnipotence is overrated anyway. It is only one attribute of God and there are others that are emphasized more in scripture, such as love, goodness and holiness. I think God is omnipotent in that God can do whatever he chooses to do. But his choices will accord with his nature, and that precludes some actions as being incompatible with his love, his justice, etc. He will not choose these actions, so even if he is technically capable of them, they are out of bounds as it were.

It is also generally supposed that God is a rational entity, though his logic may be beyond our understanding. So irrational actions are also out of bounds.

If these are impediments on omnipotence, so be it.
Not really. Omnipotence is the capacity to do whatever you want; if you want it, it comes true. But omnipotence doesn't tell us what God wants, merely that his wants will be fulfilled.
It is the other traits of God (goodness, justice, etc) that determine what God wants.

The problem arises when one notices that the world does not conform to such a vision: either God is less-than-omnipotent, and/or is not all-good, all-just, all-loving, etc.

Even more importantly, it allows the kingdom of heaven entrance into the person. As Jesus said: "the kingdom of heaven is within you."
Which makes me wonder why it was closed in the first place: if God wants us in Heaven, and God can control who goes into and out of Heaven...

Not precisely. This is where one gets into deep Pauline theology, and it is not simple. Salvation is not dependent on one's works in the sense that there is some kind of formula: "Be kind to orphans, tithe, don't smoke or commit adultery, etc. etc. etc.... and you will be saved." Salvation is not a reward for good behaviour. But at the same time, salvation is inseparable from good behaviour. "Faith without works is dead." as James said. "Show me your faith without works: I will show you my faith by my works."

Anyone can rhyme off a list of things it is good to do. But the spirit in which they are done is important. Jesus and Paul both opposed the legalistic attitude of the Pharisees for two reasons: they did what was good (works of the law) not for the good of doing them, but as means to another end (salvation). And they became both proud of themselves and judgmental of "sinners" because they kept the law so much more perfectly than others. At least in letter. Works are connected to salvation not as a means of earning salvation, but because of the difference in spirit in which they are performed. Good works are done for their own sake, because they are good, and flow from a natural love of goodness such as is found in God's own nature. They express the inner nature of the person who does the good works, just as God's good works express God's nature. And this includes kindness to others out of genuine love and compassion for the other. Not like the Pharisee blowing his trumpet as he gives alms to a beggar that he doesn't even see as a person--only as a means to his own perfection.
So the works are unnecessary. The status of being saved requires this, that, and the other, and those who can do those things are naturally inclined to do good acts.

And so they are saved: not by their works, but by the fact they want salvation.
Could you explain just what we are being saved from? I was under the impression that salvation refers to one's salvation from damnation.

1) How can reconciliation be forced against the son's will?
2) Would it not require the obliteration of the son's will?
3) And would that not destroy the son as a person?
1) Augment the son's will.
2) Not the total obliteration.
3) No.

Remember this is an omnipotence. The father is limited only by logic (square circles, etc).

This is where we come up against those things that, though they may lie technically within God's power, lie outside the bounds of what God will choose to do as they do not accord with his nature and will. It is not logical to destroy who a person is in order to "save" them. For then, what is "saved" is not the person--not even a person.
The onus is on you, then, to demonstrate that augmenting a person's will destroys their personhood.

It's worth pointing out that such a claim would mean that all humans are no longer persons: all our wills have been augmented in one way or another, be it by our parents, our governments, our societies, our cultures, our media, our education, even our own rationale.
 
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gluadys

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Within human scope, no, it's not trivial. Apart from that, however, it is trivial: confidence doesn't save the parachutist, but rather the parachute does.

Confidence is what allows the parachutist to jump in the first place. And if God is the parachute, it does save.


I would call that insanity.

You wouldn't be the first. Paul describes the gospel as "foolishness to the Greeks".

Can you explain why the covenant is the logical choice?

Because to live in terms of the covenant is life-giving, on both an individual and a social level. The consequence of living in a covenant relationship is a social order described by the Hebrews as "shalom". It is usually translated as "peace" but it also implies blessing, prosperity, justice and generally harmonious relations in all aspects of life.

To live apart from a covenant relationship is death-dealing. The natural consequence of such living, again on both individual and social levels, is conflict, violence, injustice and oppression. On a large scale to live outside a covenant relationship leads to the formation of empires whether religious, political, military or economic in form. On a petty level it leads to the attempts to control the actions of others against their will, whether through the authoritarianism of a parent or the manipulativenesss of a child. On a psychological level it leads to internal conflicts, neuroses, etc.

So when Moses presented the law to the Israelites, he said "See, I set before you life and death. Therefore, choose life..."


I'm talking about the 'stop being hell-bound, start being heaven-bound' kind of salvation.

But you seem to see that as something external to the self, as something that has nothing to do with inner transformation.

But omnipotence doesn't tell us what God wants, merely that his wants will be fulfilled. It is the other traits of God (goodness, justice, etc) that determine what God wants.

Exactly

The problem arises when one notices that the world does not conform to such a vision: either God is less-than-omnipotent, and/or is not all-good, all-just, all-loving, etc.

Why should it conform to such a vision now when there is so much resistance to it? The issue for faith is whether we trust the power of God's love to be capable of overcoming the resistance.

Do you think love can do this or do you think God must resort to violence to accomplish his will?


Which makes me wonder why it was closed in the first place:

Well, it wasn't closed by God, and the door has never been locked. It was not the father who kicked the son out of the house. It was the son who slammed the door and never looked back.


So the works are unnecessary.

Unnecessary and yet essential.


The status of being saved requires this, that, and the other,

No, it doesn't. It might be helpful to think of "being saved" not as a status, but as a state of being, and a process toward that state of being. (In the latter aspect, this is called "sanctification" in theological lingo.) One might describe it as a process of internalizing the presence of God. More on that below.

and those who can do those things are naturally inclined to do good acts.

That is something along the right line. The prophet Jeremiah speaks of this as a new covenant in which God "will put my law within them and I will write it on their hearts." Then "No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other 'Know the LORD' for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest." (Jer. 31:33-34)

Paul similarly admonishes the Christians in Rome: "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2)

And later, he describes the consequences of this renewal in terms of the "fruit of the Spirit [which] is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Gal. 5:22

Without this transformation of heart and mind, God's law is always external to us, and appears to us as an arbitrary demand. We resist it as alien to us. Even when we try to follow the precepts of good behaviour as taught by church, state, society, we do so out of duty, as something prescribed, perhaps as something for which we will merit a reward. That way lies the legalism of the Pharisees, and you will find it aplenty in the church.

With this transformation, we become inwardly attuned to God's will as a part of us, so that the appropriate behaviour is an expression of ourselves.


Could you explain just what we are being saved from? I was under the impression that salvation refers to one's salvation from damnation.

We are. Damnation is being the people we would be without salvation. If you haven't already read it, check out C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce. He describes it much better than is possible in a discussion like this. For a more advanced course in the concept, you could go on to Dante's Inferno.


1) Augment the son's will.
2) Not the total obliteration.
3) No.

In that case, you are not talking about anything different than what Christians are saying. It is the grace of God that augments the will without obliterating the person. In Calvinist theology, this grace is said to be irresistible. But even in non-Calvinist theology, grace is seen as essential to being able to respond positively to God's invitation to salvation, although even then the person is free to refuse.

So by your parameters, God is exercising his omnipotence.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Confidence is what allows the parachutist to jump in the first place. And if God is the parachute, it does save.
That's stretching the analogy somewhat. The parachute can be tested for efficacy, but no man has ever been plucked out of the air by a giant hand (regardless of their confidence in the latter).

You wouldn't be the first. Paul describes the gospel as "foolishness to the Greeks".
Hah, good point.

Because to live in terms of the covenant is life-giving, on both an individual and a social level. The consequence of living in a covenant relationship is a social order described by the Hebrews as "shalom". It is usually translated as "peace" but it also implies blessing, prosperity, justice and generally harmonious relations in all aspects of life.
Perhaps, but there are an infinite other series of social laws that could have been issued. Sharia law, for instance, or the British legal code.

To live apart from a covenant relationship is death-dealing. The natural consequence of such living, again on both individual and social levels, is conflict, violence, injustice and oppression.
I disagree: what group of people still follow the covenant? There may be some, but the vast majority of the world doesn't, yet we are at the peak of our technological development. There is no more conflict, violence, injustice, and oppression in our non-covenant-following societies than there is the ancient Hebrew societies.

On a large scale to live outside a covenant relationship leads to the formation of empires whether religious, political, military or economic in form.
That's merely a consequence of large groups of humans living together: a form of government and economy are required to maintain stability.

On a petty level it leads to the attempts to control the actions of others against their will, whether through the authoritarianism of a parent or the manipulativeness of a child. On a psychological level it leads to internal conflicts, neuroses, etc.

So when Moses presented the law to the Israelites, he said "See, I set before you life and death. Therefore, choose life..."
Nevertheless, the covenant laid down is arbitrary in its specifics and arbitrary in its social reform: why deliver a form of society that is indicative of Bronze-age nomads? Why not, say, feudalism? Communism?

But you seem to see that as something external to the self, as something that has nothing to do with inner transformation.
Given that Christians posit an omnipotent deity that desires our salvation, it must be external. Why doesn't God snap his proverbial fingers and make us all saved?

Why should it conform to such a vision now when there is so much resistance to it?
Because God is omnipotent. That's the point!

The issue for faith is whether we trust the power of God's love to be capable of overcoming the resistance.

Do you think love can do this or do you think God must resort to violence to accomplish his will?
He can resort to whatever method he wants. That's the point of omnipotence.

Well, it wasn't closed by God, and the door has never been locked. It was not the father who kicked the son out of the house. It was the son who slammed the door and never looked back.
The problem with that analogy is that the son is fully aware of what he is doing, and all he has to do is to literally walk through a physical door. This is not the case for the Christian concept of salvation.

Unnecessary and yet essential.
There's a contradiction in terms if ever I saw one.

No, it doesn't. It might be helpful to think of "being saved" not as a status, but as a state of being, and a process toward that state of being. (In the latter aspect, this is called "sanctification" in theological lingo.) One might describe it as a process of internalizing the presence of God. More on that below.
Interesting. But do you agree that I am not saved, and you are? If so, what is the difference between us, and how do I become more like you (with regards to salvation)? Even if it is a belief or even a gut feeling, there is still something I must do to 'become' saved, no?

That is something along the right line. The prophet Jeremiah speaks of this as a new covenant in which God "will put my law within them and I will write it on their hearts." Then "No longer shall they teach one another, or say to each other 'Know the LORD' for they shall all know me from the least of them to the greatest." (Jer. 31:33-34)

Paul similarly admonishes the Christians in Rome: "Do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your minds, so that you may discern what is the will of God--what is good and acceptable and perfect." (Romans 12:2)

And later, he describes the consequences of this renewal in terms of the "fruit of the Spirit [which] is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, generosity, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control." Gal. 5:22

Without this transformation of heart and mind, God's law is always external to us, and appears to us as an arbitrary demand. We resist it as alien to us. Even when we try to follow the precepts of good behaviour as taught by church, state, society, we do so out of duty, as something prescribed, perhaps as something for which we will merit a reward. That way lies the legalism of the Pharisees, and you will find it aplenty in the church.

With this transformation, we become inwardly attuned to God's will as a part of us, so that the appropriate behaviour is an expression of ourselves.


We are. Damnation is being the people we would be without salvation.
That's a bit circular, isn't it? We're saved from damnation, insofar as damnation is not being saved :scratch:.

If you haven't already read it, check out C.S. Lewis's The Great Divorce. He describes it much better than is possible in a discussion like this. For a more advanced course in the concept, you could go on to Dante's Inferno.
By some remarkable (and slightly spooky) coincidence, I downloaded a copy of Dante's Divine Comedy yesterday.

In that case, you are not talking about anything different than what Christians are saying. It is the grace of God that augments the will without obliterating the person. In Calvinist theology, this grace is said to be irresistible. But even in non-Calvinist theology, grace is seen as essential to being able to respond positively to God's invitation to salvation, although even then the person is free to refuse.

So by your parameters, God is exercising his omnipotence.
Ah, but if that were the case, then all humans would be saved, and Christianity would be redundant.
 
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gluadys

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That's stretching the analogy somewhat. The parachute can be tested for efficacy, but no man has ever been plucked out of the air by a giant hand (regardless of their confidence in the latter).

And of course, literalizing the analogy stretches it even more.


Perhaps, but there are an infinite other series of social laws that could have been issued. Sharia law, for instance, or the British legal code.


I disagree: what group of people still follow the covenant? There may be some, but the vast majority of the world doesn't, yet we are at the peak of our technological development. There is no more conflict, violence, injustice, and oppression in our non-covenant-following societies than there is the ancient Hebrew societies.

The particularities of the code are incidental. A focus on them gives us legalism. As Jesus said, the letter kills, it is the spirit that gives life. It is interesting to look at what the prophets focused on when they railed against Israel's and Judah's unfaithfulness to the covenant. Not once did they throw up their hands in horror over people eating shellfish or trimming their beards. They never denounce abortion or homosexuality. (The only time Sodom is mentioned in the OT outside of Genesis, the charge against it is wealth, greed and inhospitality to strangers.) And the only time they mention sacrifices is to say how worthless they are apart from justice.

The importance of the covenant are not the specifics of the code, but the relationship it sets up between the people and God. In Paul's view the purpose of the law was to act as a pedagogue, to lead people into that relationship. That is why Jesus (and Hillel) could summarize the whole law in the sentence "Love God and love your neighbour as yourself."

That's merely a consequence of large groups of humans living together: a form of government and economy are required to maintain stability.

I chose the word "empire" rather than "government" deliberately. Though one could ask if government is indeed necessary to maintain stability. If so, is that not an indication that we do need external constraints and therefore are not the people who have internalized the covenant, as Jeremiah says? If no one needs to be taught the ways of shalom , why is a government necessary for stability?

"Empire" has further connotations beyond that of government. Empire implies a system by which society is forcibly ordered for the benefit of an elite. The very name implies command backed up by economic and military might and the forcible repression of resistance.


Nevertheless, the covenant laid down is arbitrary in its specifics and arbitrary in its social reform: why deliver a form of society that is indicative of Bronze-age nomads? Why not, say, feudalism? Communism?

Sure it is arbitrary in its social reform. Walter Bruggeman points out that it breaks decisively with the static order of Egyptian imperialism.

The gods of Egypt are the immovable lords of order. They call for, sanction and legitimate a society of order, which is precisely what Egypt had. In Egypt ... there were no revolutions, no breaks for freedom.There were only the necessary political and economic arrangements to provide order, "naturally" the order of Pharoah. Thus the religion of the static gods is not and never could be disinterested, but inevitably served the interests of the people in charge, presiding over the order and benefitting from the order. And the functioning of that society testified to the rightness of the religion because kings did prosper and bricks did get made. from The Prophetic Imagination 2nd ed. p. 7​

The covenant with Israel required that it not imitate the order of Egypt. And when the royal/economic/religious authorities did imitate the order of Egypt, the prophets called for a return to the covenant with the God who "led you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage."

Covenant is relationship much more than specific dos and donts. And it is observed in the integrity of human relationships of freedom from bondage. By the same token it is violated in relationships of repression and exploitation.


He can resort to whatever method he wants. That's the point of omnipotence.

And he has. So what is your problem? Is it that you think God lacks the wisdom to choose the best way to use his omnipotence? I am at a total loss trying to understand what you think "snapping his proverbial fingers" means. What is it that you think would happen in such a case? Would it require total memory loss of all wrongs committed by or against us? Or annihilation of any sense of guilt or empathy? Or excision of the ego? I really don't know. And I don't know that any of this would be effective anyway.

All I know is that to get into heaven means first and foremost getting heaven into us. We need to be changed, transformed from within. And I know of no-one who has found this to be an instantaneous process, even within the context of salvation.

The problem with that analogy is that the son is fully aware of what he is doing, and all he has to do is to literally walk through a physical door. This is not the case for the Christian concept of salvation.

And the difficulty with spiritual concepts is that they can only be described analogically. Deal with it.


There's a contradiction in terms if ever I saw one.

Yeah, it's like struggling with thesis and antithesis before one has found the synthesis that resolves them.


But do you agree that I am not saved, and you are?

No, there is no way I could know that. I know you sport a pagan faith icon and have a lot of nasty things to say about God, but for all I know your rebellion is more against bad theology than deity. After all, one of the first steps toward a good relationship with God would be getting rid of false concepts that block that relationship.

And I don't know what God is doing with you right now. I like the saying attributed to Mother Teresa "We do not know how God appears to another human soul." But if whatever beckons you is life-affirming, and strengthens your commitment act kindly, with generosity and love, I would trust that leading.

Even if it is a belief or even a gut feeling, there is still something I must do to 'become' saved, no?

One of the most difficult things about the gospel, is, strangely, the Christian concept that one does not have to do anything to become saved. As Shernren noted in another post, the most common reaction he gets when counselling people is that it can't possibly be so easy. Like Naaman, we expect to be set a hard task in order to be healed, and become insulted when we are denied the opportunity to "prove ourselves".

What did the lost sheep do to be saved by the shepherd, other than get lost in the first place?

When the prodigal did decide to return home, he expected to pay a price for his folly and he was willing to do so. "I will say to my father, 'Let me have the place of a hired servant.'" But he never got the chance to make the offer.

So, is it "doing something" to accept that all that needs to be done has been done for you? In that case, I suppose you have to "do something". It certainly seems to be a very hard thing for most people to do. We act like people who have been told the concert is free, yet insist on buying a ticket. And then we prize our ticket more than the concert. Because, after all, we bought the ticket.


That's a bit circular, isn't it? We're saved from damnation, insofar as damnation is not being saved :scratch:.

Or to put it another way, we are saved from damnation when we stop clinging to it.


By some remarkable (and slightly spooky) coincidence, I downloaded a copy of Dante's Divine Comedy yesterday.

Synchronicity! Enjoy. I just finished it a few weeks ago and started right back into it again. Also, for the first time I am reading the Iliad.


Ah, but if that were the case, then all humans would be saved, and Christianity would be redundant.

In one sense, as Christ died for all, all are saved. The question, I suppose, is whether anyone is strong-willed enough to resist salvation for ever. Calvin suggested not. Those whom God saves are saved for his call is irrevocable and his grace irresistible. But then, he (or some of his followers) developed the concept of "double-decree predestination" and "limited atonement" so that hell could still be filled. ;) Alternately, one has the more Catholic view that some may indeed be so resistant to salvation as to choose not to be saved for eternity. That is the view that Dante works from, and C. S. Lewis seems to subscribe to it as well. And then, of course, there are those who hold out the possibility that God has indeed willed the salvation of all, so all are/will be saved. That's a very minority view among Christians, and some think it heresy.

Suffice it to say that the truth of the matter rests in the sovereign freedom of God to work it out according to his wisdom, justice and mercy.
 
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Melethiel

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Synchronicity! Enjoy. I just finished it a few weeks ago and started right back into it again. Also, for the first time I am reading the Iliad.
I liked the Odyssey much better than the Iliad. I only got through the Iliad by force of will. Divine Comedy is excellent stuff though.
 
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Wiccan_Child

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And of course, literalizing the analogy stretches it even more.
Heh, indeed. But you see my point: putting confidence in a material object is far more likely to pay of than putting your confidence in something with no evidence supporting its existence. No matter how strongly you believe that something exists, there is a quantitative difference between believing in fairies and seeing a real-life fairy flitting in front of your eyes.

Or, to put it another way, what evidence do you have that your god exists?

The particularities of the code are incidental. A focus on them gives us legalism. As Jesus said, the letter kills, it is the spirit that gives life. It is interesting to look at what the prophets focused on when they railed against Israel's and Judah's unfaithfulness to the covenant. Not once did they throw up their hands in horror over people eating shellfish or trimming their beards. They never denounce abortion or homosexuality. (The only time Sodom is mentioned in the OT outside of Genesis, the charge against it is wealth, greed and inhospitality to strangers.) And the only time they mention sacrifices is to say how worthless they are apart from justice.

The importance of the covenant are not the specifics of the code, but the relationship it sets up between the people and God. In Paul's view the purpose of the law was to act as a pedagogue, to lead people into that relationship. That is why Jesus (and Hillel) could summarize the whole law in the sentence "Love God and love your neighbour as yourself."
This I agree with. If one's translation and interpretation of Biblical commandments, laws, etc, cannot be summarised by "Love thy God... and love thy your neighbour as thyself", then the translation and/or interpretation is wrong. With that in mind, the covenant is arbitrary: so long as one's actions boil down to the above summary, it doesn't matter what was given in the covenant.

I chose the word "empire" rather than "government" deliberately. Though one could ask if government is indeed necessary to maintain stability. If so, is that not an indication that we do need external constraints and therefore are not the people who have internalized the covenant, as Jeremiah says? If no one needs to be taught the ways of shalom , why is a government necessary for stability?
Because the government has other duties besides maintaining the law. In Britain, at least, the government provides free healthcare, education (to an extent, as my wallet will attest), emergency services, etc. Without a government of some kind, these would not be available in any large society. Small nomadic gatherings, perhaps, but no more.

A large group of people with no overarching government (be it tyrannical or democratic) will be anarchistic. It's a system of mutual cooperation, and, because the society is so large, the deviance of one individual is negligible. Indeed, notice that all revolutions are caused by groups of people; a single person is not a revolution unto themselves.

Anyway, I'm digressing.

"Empire" has further connotations beyond that of government. Empire implies a system by which society is forcibly ordered for the benefit of an elite. The very name implies command backed up by economic and military might and the forcible repression of resistance.
I disagree. An empire is simply one country ruling other countries, and not necessarily by force. It is different to a union, where several countries come together in mutual cooperation (e.g., the EU, the UN, the USA). An empire could be formed, for instance, by a technologically inferior nation allowing themselves to be governed by a technologically superior one, in exchange for goods and services. I'm not aware of any examples, but its possible.

But, of course, this is all semantics. You may have an entirely different definition of the word 'empire'.

Sure it is arbitrary in its social reform. Walter Bruggeman points out that it breaks decisively with the static order of Egyptian imperialism.
The gods of Egypt are the immovable lords of order. They call for, sanction and legitimate a society of order, which is precisely what Egypt had. In Egypt ... there were no revolutions, no breaks for freedom.There were only the necessary political and economic arrangements to provide order, "naturally" the order of Pharoah. Thus the religion of the static gods is not and never could be disinterested, but inevitably served the interests of the people in charge, presiding over the order and benefitting from the order. And the functioning of that society testified to the rightness of the religion because kings did prosper and bricks did get made. from The Prophetic Imagination 2nd ed. p. 7​
The covenant with Israel required that it not imitate the order of Egypt.
Why not? If it worked so well, why shrug it off? It seems like they're cutting of their nose to spite their face.

Covenant is relationship much more than specific dos and donts. And it is observed in the integrity of human relationships of freedom from bondage. By the same token it is violated in relationships of repression and exploitation.
Not necessarily. A free society needn't follow the covenant at all.

And he has. So what is your problem?
My problem is that he hasn't. See below.

Is it that you think God lacks the wisdom to choose the best way to use his omnipotence? I am at a total loss trying to understand what you think "snapping his proverbial fingers" means. What is it that you think would happen in such a case? Would it require total memory loss of all wrongs committed by or against us? Or annihilation of any sense of guilt or empathy? Or excision of the ego? I really don't know. And I don't know that any of this would be effective anyway.
Like I said, God is omnipotent and can resort to whatever method he pleases. However, we have a conundrum: on the one hand, it seems God would like us to all be 'saved'. On the other, we're not saved. How can this be, if God is omnipotent?

All I know is that to get into heaven means first and foremost getting heaven into us. We need to be changed, transformed from within. And I know of no-one who has found this to be an instantaneous process, even within the context of salvation.
Why not? If God is omnipotent, what aren't we all saved, instantaneously? My point is that an omnipotence gets what it wants. If God wants us to be saved, then we are saved. However, according to Christian theology, we aren't. What gives?

And the difficulty with spiritual concepts is that they can only be described analogically. Deal with it.
That is not my problem. I'm fine with explaining things by analogy. The problem comes when the analogy just doesn't work (it's one thing to explain common descent by way of analogy, but quite another to invoke the fallacious 'tornado through a junk heap' argument).

Yeah, it's like struggling with thesis and antithesis before one has found the synthesis that resolves them.
Perhaps, but how can something be simultaneously unnecessary and essential? Especially given that the latter term is the antonym of the former, and, thus, the 'thing' in question is a logical paradox. It's like trying to work out what 'thing' is a member of the null set.

No, there is no way I could know that. I know you sport a pagan faith icon and have a lot of nasty things to say about God, but for all I know your rebellion is more against bad theology than deity. After all, one of the first steps toward a good relationship with God would be getting rid of false concepts that block that relationship.
A fair point. But, thus far, I don't think I've said anything bad about your god. I've merely pointed out theological inconsistencies. You are right, though: I am no longer Christian because Christianity makes no sense (to me, at least).

One of the most difficult things about the gospel, is, strangely, the Christian concept that one does not have to do anything to become saved. As Shernren noted in another post, the most common reaction he gets when counselling people is that it can't possibly be so easy. Like Naaman, we expect to be set a hard task in order to be healed, and become insulted when we are denied the opportunity to "prove ourselves".

What did the lost sheep do to be saved by the shepherd, other than get lost in the first place?

When the prodigal did decide to return home, he expected to pay a price for his folly and he was willing to do so. "I will say to my father, 'Let me have the place of a hired servant.'" But he never got the chance to make the offer.

So, is it "doing something" to accept that all that needs to be done has been done for you? In that case, I suppose you have to "do something". It certainly seems to be a very hard thing for most people to do. We act like people who have been told the concert is free, yet insist on buying a ticket. And then we prize our ticket more than the concert. Because, after all, we bought the ticket.
But you have not answered my question. What must I do? Like I said, even if it is just holding a belief, that is still something done. What differentiates saved people from unsaved people?

Or to put it another way, we are saved from damnation when we stop clinging to it.
Which means what, exactly?

In one sense, as Christ died for all, all are saved. The question, I suppose, is whether anyone is strong-willed enough to resist salvation for ever. Calvin suggested not. Those whom God saves are saved for his call is irrevocable and his grace irresistible. But then, he (or some of his followers) developed the concept of "double-decree predestination" and "limited atonement" so that hell could still be filled. ;) Alternately, one has the more Catholic view that some may indeed be so resistant to salvation as to choose not to be saved for eternity. That is the view that Dante works from, and C. S. Lewis seems to subscribe to it as well. And then, of course, there are those who hold out the possibility that God has indeed willed the salvation of all, so all are/will be saved. That's a very minority view among Christians, and some think it heresy.
It makes the most sense to me.
1) God is omnipotent (God gets everything he wants).
2) God wants everyone to be saved.
3) Therefore, everyone is saved.

Suffice it to say that the truth of the matter rests in the sovereign freedom of God to work it out according to his wisdom, justice and mercy.
So what does the Bible say God wants, with regards to salvation?
 
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Wiccan_Child

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Yall type too much....takes too long to read. ^_^
Haha, I've been told that before ^_^. To summarise: if God is omnipotent, and God wants us all to be saved, what's stopping him from snapping his fingers and poofing us all into the state of salvation?
 
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