The "The Early Church Used the Greek O.T." thread

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>Why did Reformation Protestants favor Hebrew texts which were of more recent origin than the LXX?</snip>

In which parallel universe did the Greek Old Testament come before the Hebrew Old Testament? Do you believe Moses wrote in Greek?

 

[MariaRegina]

In which parallel universe did the Greek Old Testament come before the Hebrew Old Testament? Do you believe Moses wrote in Greek?

The Masoretic text used by the Jews after Christ's Holy Resurrection was changed. It was changed significantly so that the Christians could no longer worship with the Jews in the synagogue because the Shema was changed to referred to One God (not a Triune Godhead as the Christians believed). This Old Testament was therefore not the one that Moses wrote. It was adulterated after Christ's death and Holy Resurrection. This is why the Greek Orthodox Church only uses the LXX, which is older than the adulterated Masoretic text (post 70 AD).

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Then we are agreed. I think the idea posed by many Protestants that the Hebrew is the only one we should use, is wrong. I also think the idea posed by many within Orthodoxy that the Greek was the only one used by the apostles, is wrong.

When in doubt, use both the LXX and Hebrew, as this one wise person here says

False prophets in Daniel in the Bible. Revived Roman Empire, Beast of the Apocalypse of Mark, and Antiochus the Selucid Greek

*snip*

..........As I have noticed while comparing translations of different verses in the Bible, even the most literal translations can suddenly depart from literalism, perhaps visit the Greek Septuagint and abandon the Hebrew translation for a single verse, whenever some highly cherished doctrine might be threatened by a truly literal translation.
Rule of thumb : you should never, ever rely exclusively on one single translation.) ............

 

[MariaRegina]

..........As I have noticed while comparing translations of different verses in the Bible, even the most literal translations can suddenly depart from literalism, perhaps visit the Greek Septuagint and abandon the Hebrew translation for a single verse, whenever some highly cherished doctrine might be threatened by a truly literal translation.
Rule of thumb : you should never, ever rely exclusively on one single translation.) ............

When the Holy Orthodox Church has only used the LXX, why change?

Why change something that isn't broken.

And as Orthodox Christians are fond of saying:

Change, what change? Is OUTRAGE.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

When the Holy Orthodox Church has only used the LXX, why change?

Why change something that isn't broken.

And as Orthodox Christians are fond of saying:

Change, what change? Is OUTRAGE.

I look at both of them myself....The LXX often times renders Hebrew words differently than it should.
Perhaps we should have a thread on that

 

[katherine2001]

If the Septuagint was good enough for Christ and the Apostles, it's good enough for me.

 

[SummaScriptura]

<snip>We know that when the N.T. quotes Jesus quoting scripture it gives versions that are sometimes identifiably LXX, but that doesn't tell us what version Jesus actually spoke from - we can't tell simply from the NT whether he used the LXX or the Evangelists used the LXX in writing up the report.</snip>

There is a third possibility. One which I pointed out earlier but maybe you missed. When Jesus reads from Isaiah 61 in the Nazareth synagogue, the version of Isaiah he reads has characteristics missing from both the Greek Isaiah AND the Hebrew Isaiah. Greek Isaiah lacks the part about setting free those who are bound or oppressed which was in both Jesus' version and the Hebrew. Hebrew Isaiah lacks the "restoring of sight to the blind" which was in both Jesus' version and the Greek.

The Dead Sea Scrolls evidence Hebrew scrolls which are closer to the LXX than the MT. No one needed to have been reading from Greek. There is the possibilty Hebrew was read which is closer to the Greek and therefore gets mistaken for the LXX.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

If the Septuagint was good enough for Christ and the Apostles, it's good enough for me.

I am not saying the LXX is inconsistant ALL the time with the GNT.

I found Isaiah 26:19 rather fascinating concerning the Greek word used for "resurrection" as used in the GNT

I have a rather large study on this

Isaiah 26:19 They shall live/rise-up, ones being dead/04191 muwth of thee, carcass/05038 n@belah of me they shall be roused.
Awake! and be jubilant ye! ones dwelling of soil, that dew-of lights dew of thee and-land healers/07496 rapha' she is casting down.

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 ana-sthsontai oi nekroi kai egerqhsontai oi en toiv mnhmeioiv kai eufranqhsontai oi en th gh h gar drosov h para sou iama autoiv estin h de gh twn asebwn peseitai

Matt 12:41 "Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this and they shall be condemning her,
that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here.
[Isaiah 26:19/Jonah 3]

1 Thessalonians 4:16 That Himself, the Lord, in a shout-of-command in voice of Chief-Messenger and in trump of God, shall be descending from heaven
and the dead-ones in Christ shall be ressurecting/standing-up/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) First

 

[MariaRegina]

If the Septuagint was good enough for Christ and the Apostles, it's good enough for me.

And Christ, our Lord God and Savior, promised to send His Holy Spirit to guide His Holy Church unto all truth.

God does not lie and He is unchangeable.

 

[SummaScriptura]

The Orthodox Study Bible (Bonded Leather): Ancient Christianity Speaks to Today's World | Thomas Nelson | Publisher of Christian Products

[/list]

Already have it and refer to it regularly!

 

[laconicstudent]

Already have it and refer to it regularly!

Nice! I'm toying with the idea of getting it in bonded leather for my end-of-finals reward.

 

[SummaScriptura]

The Masoretic text used by the Jews after Christ's Holy Resurrection was changed. It was changed significantly so that the Christians could no longer worship with the Jews in the synagogue because the Shema was changed to referred to One God (not a Triune Godhead as the Christians believed). This Old Testament was therefore not the one that Moses wrote. It was adulterated after Christ's death and Holy Resurrection. This is why the Greek Orthodox Church only uses the LXX, which is older than the adulterated Masoretic text (post 70 AD).

The Great Isaiah Scroll Vindicates the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Old Testament

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

The Great Isaiah Scroll Vindicates the Masoretic Text of the Hebrew Old Testament

Wanna discuss Isaiah 26:19 and the LXX/Hebrew?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Wanna discuss Isaiah 26:19 and the LXX/Hebrew?

In both versions, its a pretty crystal clear revelation concerning the resurrection of the dead. Makes one wonder why such a thing could become a controverted point among Jews in the 1st century.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

In both versions, its a pretty crystal clear revelation concerning the resurrection of the dead. Makes one wonder why such a thing could become a controverted point among Jews in the 1st century.

Wasn't there a controversy between the sadducees and pharisees concerning the "resurrection"

Acts 23:7 This yet of him saying, there became a dissension of the Pharisees and Sadducees; and is split the throng.
8 For Sadducees indeed are saying no to be a resurrection, nor messenger, nor spirit, Pharisees yet are avowing the both.

 

[SummaScriptura]

I look at both of them myself....The LXX often times renders Hebrew words differently than it should.
Perhaps we should have a thread on that

I don't doubt that can be true at times, but by what criteria would one decide in 2010, that "the LXX is wrong in this instance"? The original texts are behind both the MT and LXX textual traditions.

The way I view the LXX is like this, and I readily admit I could be wrong, but the LXX is helpful because its purpose was not only to translate a "foreign" language for Diasporic Jewry, it also served to explain the underlying concepts in ways that could be grasped by God-fearing gentiles. In so doing, the translators made concrete that which inhered in very subtle ways within the Hebrew words.

Use of the word "resurrection" then, was thoroughly appropriate as it removed possible ambiguiites from the concept of "rising from the dead". Biblical Hebrew dictionaries of our day would be prone to miss subtleties of word meanings which would have been more obvious to the pre-Christian Jews, before Hebrew became a dead language.

We sometimes forget Hebrew as a spoken language was dead until the 20th century.

 

[ebia]

I have to wonder... Is there any point at all, that the churches make,

Which churches, exactly, are we talking about, and when?

that we would concede that the churches themselves are correct and we are wrong?

Depends on what exactly is being claimed, who exactly is claiming it, and why exactly I think that is not true.

Not one of us accepts as true every claim made by every part of the church.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

I don't doubt that can be true at times, but by what criteria would one decide in 2010, that "the LXX is wrong in this instance". The original texts are behind both the MT and LXX textual traditions. The way I view the LXX is like this, and I readily admit I could be wrong, but the LXX is helpful because its purpose was not only to translate a "foreign" language for Diasporic Jewry, it also sought to explain the underlying concepts in ways that could be grasped to gentiles. In so doing, the translators made concrete that which inhered in very subtle ways within the Hebrew words. Use of the word "resurrection" then, was thoroughly appropriate as it removed possible ambiguiites from the concept of "rising from the dead". Biblical Hebrew dictionaries of our day would be prone to miss subtleties of word meanings which would have been more obvious to the pre-Christian Jews.

Perhaps more of the fault lies within the translations of the Greek New Testament?

This is one reason I wanted to discuss Isaiah 26:19.
Look at the LXX rendering of "resurrection" and "rouse" in Isaiah and look at Matthew 12:41, 42.

Rotherham) Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead, shall come to life again, My dead body, they shall arise,--Awake and shout for joy, ye that dwell in the dust For, a dew of light, is thy dew, And, earth, to the shades shall give birth.

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 &#945;&#957;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#957;&#949;&#954;&#961;&#959;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#947;&#949;&#961;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#956;&#957;&#951;&#956;&#949;&#953;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#965;&#966;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#951; &#947;&#951; &#951; &#947;&#945;&#961; &#948;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#959;&#962; &#951; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945; &#963;&#959;&#965; &#953;&#945;&#956;&#945; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#949;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957; &#951; &#948;&#949; &#947;&#951; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#963;&#949;&#946;&#969;&#957; &#960;&#949;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#964;&#945;&#953;

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 anasthsontai oi nekroi kai egerqhsontai oi en toiv mnhmeioiv kai eufranqhsontai oi en th gh h gar drosov h para sou iama autoiv estin h de gh twn asebwn peseitai

Matt 12:41 "Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this and they shall be condemning her, that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here. [Isaiah 26:19/Jonah 3]

Matt 12:42 "A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it/her.
That She came out of the ends of the land to hear the Wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!"

450. anistemi an-is'-tay-mee from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).

1453. egeiro eg-i'-ro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep,

 

[ebia]

Then we are agreed. I think the idea posed by many Protestants that the Hebrew is the only one we should use, is wrong. I also think the idea posed by many within Orthodoxy that the Greek was the only one used by the apostles, is wrong.

 

[ebia]

Perhaps more of the fault lies within the translations of the Greek New Testament?

This is one reason I wanted to discuss Isaiah 26:19.
Look at the LXX rendering of "resurrection" and "rouse" in Isaiah and look at Matthew 12:41, 42.

Rotherham) Isaiah 26:19 Thy dead, shall come to life again, My dead body, they shall arise,--Awake and shout for joy, ye that dwell in the dust For, a dew of light, is thy dew, And, earth, to the shades shall give birth.

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 &#945;&#957;&#945;&#963;&#964;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#957;&#949;&#954;&#961;&#959;&#953; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#947;&#949;&#961;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#956;&#957;&#951;&#956;&#949;&#953;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#954;&#945;&#953; &#949;&#965;&#966;&#961;&#945;&#957;&#952;&#951;&#963;&#959;&#957;&#964;&#945;&#953; &#959;&#953; &#949;&#957; &#964;&#951; &#947;&#951; &#951; &#947;&#945;&#961; &#948;&#961;&#959;&#963;&#959;&#962; &#951; &#960;&#945;&#961;&#945; &#963;&#959;&#965; &#953;&#945;&#956;&#945; &#945;&#965;&#964;&#959;&#953;&#962; &#949;&#963;&#964;&#953;&#957; &#951; &#948;&#949; &#947;&#951; &#964;&#969;&#957; &#945;&#963;&#949;&#946;&#969;&#957; &#960;&#949;&#963;&#949;&#953;&#964;&#945;&#953;

[LXX] Isaiah 26:19 anasthsontai oi nekroi kai egerqhsontai oi en toiv mnhmeioiv kai eufranqhsontai oi en th gh h gar drosov h para sou iama autoiv estin h de gh twn asebwn peseitai

Matt 12:41 "Men Ninevites shall be resurrecting/standing-up/ana-sthsontai <450> (5698) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this and they shall be condemning her, that they reform into the proclamation of Jonah and behold! more of Jonah here. [Isaiah 26:19/Jonah 3]

Matt 12:42 "A Queen of the south shall be being aroused/egerqhsetai <1453> (5701) in the judging with the generation/geneaV <1074>, this, and shall be condemning it/her.
That She came out of the ends of the land to hear the Wisdom of Solomon and behold! more of Solomon here!"

450. anistemi an-is'-tay-mee from 303 and 2476; to stand up (literal or figurative, transitive or intransitive):--arise, lift up, raise up (again), rise (again), stand up(-right).

1453. egeiro eg-i'-ro probably akin to the base of 58 (through the idea of collecting one's faculties); to waken (transitively or intransitively), i.e. rouse (literally, from sleep,

If you can get a copy, you might like to have a look at Resurrection of the Son of God (N.T. Wright). He does a lot of work on this sort of stuff, how those two words would be heard, the development of the idea of resurrection of the dead in Jewish thought, the denial of such ideas in surrounding thought, etc.