The Ten vs the 603

Divide · Nov 30, 2023

Gary K said:
What makes you think you and I are not subject to the law of God? God's law is still in effect. It hasn't been done away with. Is it still wrong to murder, lie, steal, covet, etc...?

Romans 7: 6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.
10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.
12 Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Romans 4: 15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

There is that word grace again. It's by faith through the influence and power of the HS that Jew and Gentile become able to keep the law. It was that way with Abraham and it is the same with us.

I don't think that we are not subject to the law of God. I said but it dont mean that we can break the 10 commandments.

If one walks with the HS then they don't have to even look at the law because HS would not lead them to break a commandment. He is led by the HS. The law is the old wine and the new wine outdated the old wine.

If a person is being led by the HS and then decides to sin, he has just turned his back on his God and his faith. This is the man under the law.
You understand that, right?

Gary K · Nov 30, 2023

Divide said:
I don't think that we are not subject to the law of God. I said but it dont mean that we can break the 10 commandments.

If one walks with the HS then they don't have to even look at the law because HS would not lead them to break a commandment. He is led by the HS. The law is the old wine and the new wine outdated the old wine.

If a person is being led by the HS and then decides to sin, he has just turned his back on his God and his faith. This is the man under the law.
You understand that, right?

Yes. I can agree with that. It's the entire point I've been making sine I started posting in this forum. I don't understand how that eliminates keeping the Sabbath though as God does not argue with Himself. A house divided can not stand.

Divide · Nov 30, 2023

Gary K said:
Yes. I can agree with that. It's the entire point I've been making sine I started posting in this forum. I don't understand how that eliminates keeping the Sabbath though as God does not argue with Himself. A house divided can not stand.

I bet that the sabbath on saturday will be reinstated in the millenium.

Gary K · Nov 30, 2023

Divide said:
I bet that the sabbath on saturday will be reinstated in the millenium.

Of course it will still be in force during the millenium.

Leaf473 · Nov 30, 2023

Gary K said:
I really don't understand the antipathy to the Sabbath.

I don't have antipathy to the Sabbath.

I love God's law, and want to see it handled correctly

Bible Gateway passage: Psalm 1:2 - New American Standard Bible 1995

But his delight is in the law of the LORD, And in His law he meditates day and night.

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K said:
It's right in the middle of the 10 and is the one God tells us to remember. And why would you want to look for loop holes in God's law? It baffles me why someone who says they love God with all their heart, soul, and might would look for ways of disobeying Him. It just doesn't fit ,especially when the Bible talks endlessly about the power of God to change us to make us capable of keeping His law.

I also don't understand this reluctance with all the evidence I've given about the Pharisees and the Talmud.

Leaf473 · Nov 30, 2023

Gary K said:
And we are under the authority of God's law whether we obey it or not.

Well, I don't think so... Jesus was born under the authority of the law, I think we agree there.

But then

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:18 - New International Reader's Version

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the authority of the law.

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K said:
Where no law exists there is no transgression.

Sounds right

Gary K · Nov 30, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Well, I don't think so... Jesus was born under the authority of the law, I think we agree there.

But then

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:18 - New International Reader's Version

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the authority of the law.

www.biblegateway.com

Sounds right

Odd that you don't include verses 19 - 22 in your quote from Galatians so that you show the context..

That's right. If we live by the Spirit we violate no law which includes all 10 commandments. Not just 9 of them. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God. God does not argue with Himself so I see the argument that the HS tells people to violate God's law as very strange.

Leaf473 · Nov 30, 2023

Gary K said:
Odd that you don't include verses 19 - 22 in your quote from Galatians so that you show the context..

Here we go!

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:17-22 - New International Reader's Version

The desires controlled by sin do not want what the Spirit delights in. And the Spirit does not want what the desires controlled by sin delight in. The two are at war with each other. That’s why you are not supposed to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the...

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K said:
That's right. If we live by the Spirit we violate no law which includes all 10 commandments.

Well, I believe we were talking about whether or not we are under the authority of the law.

Gary K said:
Not just 9 of them. Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor and do all thy work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God.

Gary K said:
God does not argue with Himself so I see the argument that the HS tells people to violate God's law as very strange.

I'm not saying that

Gary K · Nov 30, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Here we go!

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:17-22 - New International Reader's Version

The desires controlled by sin do not want what the Spirit delights in. And the Spirit does not want what the desires controlled by sin delight in. The two are at war with each other. That’s why you are not supposed to do whatever you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the...

www.biblegateway.com

Well, I believe we were talking about whether or not we are under the authority of the law.

I'm not saying that

And you posted scripture that brought up what I posted. Odd how you find it off topic and don't want to discuss it.

You are saying God argues with Himself by saying the HS leads you to believe arguing against the Sabbath is a good thing. I find it odd how you can even deny it.

Galatians 5: 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is not legalism for it is God who worketh within you both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Leaf473 · Nov 30, 2023

Gary K said:
And you posted scripture that brought up what I posted. Odd how you find it off topic and don't want to discuss it.

Many things can be discussed from a scripture passage. I believe your statement here

Gary K said:
And we are under the authority of God's law whether we obey it or not.

doesn't go along with the following passage

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:18 - New International Reader's Version

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the authority of the law.

www.biblegateway.com

If you wish to read the whole chapter, here is a link

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5 - New International Reader's Version

Christ Sets Us Free - Christ has set us free to enjoy our freedom. So remain strong in the faith. Don’t let the chains of slavery hold you again. Here is what I, Paul, say to you. Don’t let yourselves be circumcised. If you do, Christ won’t be of any value to you. I say it again. Every man who...

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K said:
You are saying God argues with Himself by saying the HS leads you to believe arguing against the Sabbath is a good thing.

No, I'm not saying that.

Gary K said:
I find it odd how you can even deny it.

I think if you'll follow up on the discussion at the end of this post, it will make more sense to you

Gary K said:
Galatians 5: 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is not legalism for it is God who worketh within you both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Amen!

So... Did you want to respond to this?

Leaf473 said:
Thanks And then as it relates to this post

does this next passage, which is about leprosy, contain a dietary law? It does talk about the lip.

Bible Gateway passage: Leviticus 13:45 - Lexham English Bible

“As for the person who is afflicted with a skin disease, his garments must be torn and his hair must be allowed to hang loosely, and he must cover his upper lip, and he must call out, ‘Unclean! Unclean!’

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K · Nov 30, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Many things can be discussed from a scripture passage. I believe your statement here

doesn't go along with the following passage

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:18 - New International Reader's Version

But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the authority of the law.

www.biblegateway.com

If you wish to read the whole chapter, here is a link

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5 - New International Reader's Version

Christ Sets Us Free - Christ has set us free to enjoy our freedom. So remain strong in the faith. Don’t let the chains of slavery hold you again. Here is what I, Paul, say to you. Don’t let yourselves be circumcised. If you do, Christ won’t be of any value to you. I say it again. Every man who...

www.biblegateway.com

No, I'm not saying that.

I think if you'll follow up on the discussion at the end of this post, it will make more sense to you

Amen!

So... Did you want to respond to this?

It's not me who misunderstands. It's you as you once again showed that you think that only 9 commandments apply to Christians. James tells us that if we break one commandment we've broken them all so your beliefs leave you in a sticky wicket.

Nah. I don't care to go over that again as we've done that very thoroughly a few times already.

Leaf473 · Nov 30, 2023

Gary K said:
It's not me who misunderstands. It's you as you once again showed that you think that only 9 commandments apply to Christians.

Not true.

Gary K said:
James tells us that if we break one commandment we've broken them all so your beliefs leave you in a sticky wicket.

My beliefs are founded on the scriptures

Gary K said:
Nah. I don't care to go over that again as we've done that very thoroughly a few times already.

If you wish to clarify what you mean by "dietary laws", that would be great.

If you don't want to talk anymore, that's fine too

Gary K · Nov 30, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Not true.

My beliefs are founded on the scriptures

If you wish to clarify what you mean by "dietary laws", that would be great.

If you don't want to talk anymore, that's fine too

Scripture does not contradict itself. A house divided cannot stand.

HIM · Dec 1, 2023

Gary K said:
And you posted scripture that brought up what I posted. Odd how you find it off topic and don't want to discuss it.

You are saying God argues with Himself by saying the HS leads you to believe arguing against the Sabbath is a good thing. I find it odd how you can even deny it.

Galatians 5: 17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

This is not legalism for it is God who worketh within you both to will and to do His good pleasure.

Galatians is about us not sinning because we are living in and of the faith of Christ through Christ.
In regard to sinning the Spirit says as you so graciously posted Gary in 5:21, "as I have also told you in time past, that they which are doing such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." In other words those who don't do them through Christ will inherent because they are living through the faith of Christ doing the things of God through His Spirit.

The Law is for sinners. As Galatians says in context to the works of the law in verse 2:16. Is Jesus the minister of sin? God forbid, if I build again the things I destroyed I myself become a transgressor. If the Law was done away with in respect to our sinning then why would the Spirit bring it up. Because the Law is for the sinner as the Spirit says elsewhere.

1Tim 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

Leaf473 · Dec 1, 2023

Gary K said:
Scripture does not contradict itself. A house divided cannot stand.

Absolutely! So, I think if you'll go into more detail about the dietary laws you talk about here, you'll see that it doesn't match up with all of scripture

Gary K said:
Other than the 10 commandments, only the dietary laws as those directly affect our health and thus our spiritual understanding.

How about just giving references for where all the dietary laws are found?

Or if you don't want to talk about it anymore, that's fine.

Peace be with you, my brother

Gary K · Dec 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
Absolutely! So, I think if you'll go into more detail about the dietary laws you talk about here, you'll see that it doesn't match up with all of scripture

How about just giving references for where all the dietary laws are found?

Or if you don't want to talk about it anymore, that's fine.

Peace be with you, my brother

To what purpose? We spent a lot of time going over these before. My view didn't change and neither did yours.. Neither one of us moved a millimeter.

Leaf473 · Dec 1, 2023

Gary K said:
To what purpose? We spent a lot of time going over these before.

We have gone over a complete list of the dietary laws before? I don't recall this.

I know we've talked about various approaches to the law in the past, but the idea that only the 10 and the dietary laws are in effect from the law of Moses for us today? I think this is new to this thread. I thought we were making good progress

Of course, the ball is in your court to clear up what "dietary laws" are, since it's not a scriptural term.

To what purpose? Hopefully edification for both of us. If your approach works, I want to know about it. I assume that if it doesn't work, you would want to know that.

Gary K said:
My view didn't change and neither did yours.. Neither one of us moved a millimeter.

Even if neither of us changes a position, it's always good to have more understanding about how other people arrived at their position.

I'm interested in continuing, so it's up to you

Gary K · Dec 1, 2023

Leaf473 said:
We have gone over a complete list of the dietary laws before? I don't recall this.

I know we've talked about various approaches to the law in the past, but the idea that only the 10 and the dietary laws are in effect from the law of Moses for us today? I think this is new to this thread. I thought we were making good progress

Of course, the ball is in your court to clear up what "dietary laws" are, since it's not a scriptural term.

To what purpose? Hopefully edification for both of us. If your approach works, I want to know about it. I assume that if it doesn't work, you would want to know that.

Even if neither of us changes a position, it's always good to have more understanding about how other people arrived at their position.

I'm interested in continuing, so it's up to you

You and I went over them thoroughly. But that is not my biggest issue in not discussing it with you. I have posted a lot of evidence in this thread that you have flat out ignored. I've backed up my position with scripture and the Pharisee's beliefs from the Talmud and it's like I said nothing at all I get tired of showing you evidence, really strong evidence, and having you pretend nothing was said when it contradicts your beliefs.

Leaf473 · Dec 2, 2023

Gary K said:
You and I went over them thoroughly.

In which post(s) did you and I go over the dietary laws thoroughly? Please give a reference

Gary K said:
But that is not my biggest issue in not discussing it with you. I have posted a lot of evidence in this thread that you have flat out ignored.

If you give evidence that isn't related to what I was talking about, then I won't follow up on it, that's true.

Gary K said:
I've backed up my position with scripture...

That's where we disagree, and I think that's why it would be good to keep talking

I don't think the scriptures you have posted support your position. For example, where is the scripture that says that what we eat affects our spiritual understanding? Maybe there is one, nothing comes to mind for me. Kind of the opposite,

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14:17 - New American Standard Bible

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

www.biblegateway.com

Gary K said:
...and the Pharisee's beliefs from the Talmud and it's like I said nothing at all

I posted this scripture,

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:14 - New American Standard Bible

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

www.biblegateway.com

and you responded with lots of information about the Pharisees on the Talmud.

There's nothing in that passage about the Pharisees or the Talmud. When I asked for an explanation of how that was related to the scripture passage I posted, you simply responded with more descriptions of the beliefs of the Pharisees.

That's how I remember it. Can you understand why I didn't follow up on your discussion of the Pharisees? It didn't appear germane to the topic. If you'd like to explain how the Pharisees and the Talmud relate to Galatians 5:14, that would be great!

Gary K said:
I get tired of showing you evidence, really strong evidence, and having you pretend nothing was said when it contradicts your beliefs.

The evidence you've shown doesn't contradict my beliefs. Neither does it appear to be relevant to the topic. But if I'm not understanding, please explain! Please take small steps, one at a time, in your explanation

Gary K · Dec 2, 2023

Leaf473 said:
In which post(s) did you and I go over the dietary laws thoroughly? Please give a reference

If you give evidence that isn't related to what I was talking about, then I won't follow up on it, that's true.

That's where we disagree, and I think that's why it would be good to keep talking

I don't think the scriptures you have posted support your position. For example, where is the scripture that says that what we eat affects our spiritual understanding? Maybe there is one, nothing comes to mind for me. Kind of the opposite,

Bible Gateway passage: Romans 14:17 - New American Standard Bible

for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit.

www.biblegateway.com

I posted this scripture,

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 5:14 - New American Standard Bible

For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.”

www.biblegateway.com

and you responded with lots of information about the Pharisees on the Talmud.

There's nothing in that passage about the Pharisees or the Talmud. When I asked for an explanation of how that was related to the scripture passage I posted, you simply responded with more descriptions of the beliefs of the Pharisees.

That's how I remember it. Can you understand why I didn't follow up on your discussion of the Pharisees? It didn't appear germane to the topic. If you'd like to explain how the Pharisees and the Talmud relate to Galatians 5:14, that would be great!

The evidence you've shown doesn't contradict my beliefs. Neither does it appear to be relevant to the topic. But if I'm not understanding, please explain! Please take small steps, one at a time, in your explanation

It was months ago that we discussed this.

So what if the scripture you posted didn't talk about the Pharisees? I addressed the thought you posted.

We've had long enough conversations that you know. or should know by now. that I don't just post off the wall comments. I'm not interested in going over this again. If you insist on asking for replies don't be real surprised when I don't answer.

The Ten vs the 603

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