But you do not believe God when He made clear and unambiguous promises about Israels future. You cant have it both ways!
Present National Israel (I believe) is part of the Viper that has arisen out of that which was crushed in Isaiah 59; 1-5. If present Israel or a national Israel has some part in some 'end time' scenario, it will be as a fruitless fig tree among the other trees pushing their leaves. The old covenant land/nation promises to a people of Israels and Abrahamic (through Isaac and Israel's) physical descendency
had been terminated and judged faulty as evidenced by the desolation of Jerusalem. At least twice, Paul says that God has judged ALL (nations,peoples) in unbelief (equally) that he might have mercy on those of ALL nations. Rom 11:32; Gal 3:22, But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe
Many if not all prophecies concerning a restoration (just like we read in Isaiah 44/45) were fulfilled with the restoration of 490 years up to the time of Christ. Many prophecies which some attribute to a Millenial Davidic throne are fulfilled figuratively in Christ eternal and present Kingdom of Christians. Just as Jesus said that John the Baptist was Elijah who was to come, it is fulfilled in a figurative sense of the name and ministry of Elijah. Some prophecies that mention or continue talking of "Israel" in a timetable after Christ I believe speak towards the church, the Israel of God; the sons of God, heirs according to the promise; as a continuation and fulfillment of the blessings of Abraham to 'Israel'. Such is Isaiah 61 which Jesus read from. Some of those that talk of victorious Israel (such as in Armagheddon) I believe talk of Spiritual warfare where we are to be "more than conquerers.
It is true that some early dispensationalists like C. I. Scofield did go occasionally to extremes and even twisted scripture. But for a preterist to make this accusation is rather like the pot calling the kettle black! Like the Bereans, we always need to search the scriptures [to see] whether these things are so (Acts 17:11). And we must always use sound methods of interpretation, and do so consistently, and not just when the passage agrees with our preconceived theology.
If your allusions to 'scirpture twisting' and having a pretertist perspective are referring to Dan 7 or Dan 9 or futurist Israel perspectives, thus far, I have no apologies. You may call my kettle whichever color you wish and it will make no influence on it's true color. But, I have no pretertist bone to pick. That my interpretations align themselves with some or most pretertist ideas does not mean that I have started from a pretertist or partial pretertist positon. I appreciate though the perspectives of those who have gone before me.
This brings us to a discussion of principles of interpretation.
I offered the historico/grammatical/literary (not literal) and 'inductive' approach.
We must gather all historical information possible and read with a historical mindset. In addition, this includes first seeking to understand how the
original audience and intendees would have understood the words written to and for them. (this is a main area where mistakes are made, including I believe some of futurism's error)
We must decipher grammatically, using period and biblical usage word studies, figures of speech, sentence construction and other grammatical helps. Literarily, we must include those figures of speech, poetical considerations, sentence and paragraph construction, connecting words or phrases and as mentioned the heavy influence of hebrew Parallelism. The 'inductive" aspect is the idea that we must first cancel out any pre-conceived interpretation or ideas before beginning to come to understand a passage within it's contextual, literary,grammatical historical meanings. The inductive approach is the one that seems to continaully ask questions of the text probing it from various angles.
I must point out, however, that it is equally wrong for preterists to insist that all predictive prophecy was fulfilled in the past! This too is scripture-twisting!
I do not really have a pretertist bone to pick as it may seem. But, as mentioned above, I seek to understand an application in the context that the original hearers and readers of the letter or gospel record would have understood them. This is what limits the desolation of Jerusalem and the overturning of the stones of the temple to that temple that Jesus pointed towards and the disciples were glorying over.
There are times when a person does not know of the historical or intended figurative fulfillment of a said prophecy. Thus sometimes when a person calls a pretertist a 'scripture twister' they may just be unknowing of fulfillments or unseeing of figurative fulfillments (as the Elijah/John the Baptist case)
I would agree that every time [the word] Israel is used, it is a literal usage.
I would disagree with this assessment and this is a core law that Scofield established and refered to as a law of Literal Interpretation.
For they are not all Israel who are of Israel,
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the promise (blessing of Abraham; salvation; election) are counted as the seed.
Paul defends his belief in God's election in the following verses still talking and defining this "ALL" Israel,
9:16. So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
and then includes the elect believing Gentiles in "all Israel" :
22 What if God, wanting to show
His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,
23 and
that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had prepared beforehand for glory,
24 even us whom He called,
not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Paul then
supports the inclusion of the Gentiles into "ALL ISRAEL" by the quote from Hosea before turning his attention to physical Israel. Note: "All Israel" was a phrase the Rabbi's would use in times past to describe those who would be 'saved'.
25 As He says also in Hosea:
(concerning the Gentiles)
"I will call them My people, who were not My people,
And her beloved, who was not beloved." [fn8]
26 "And it shall come to pass in the place where it was said to them,
'You are not My people,'
There they shall be called sons of the living God." (a name for Israel, Jesus)
And turning back to then present tense non elect vs elect Israel he says:
27 Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel:
[fn10]
"Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.
28 For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the Lord will make a short work upon the earth."
29 And as Isaiah said before:
"Unless the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah."
Interesting analogy considering the upcoming desolation and burning of Jerusalem.
Thus the "All Israel" that is being saved is those of Both Jew/Gentile who are elect to be recieving salvation through faith.
This is the same "all Israel" of Rom 11:26 which describes
the manner in which 'all Israel" will be known and saved'. "All Israel" are those who have their sins cancelled out and subsequently turn from ungodliness through the election of God; like Jacobs 'election'. see Rom 10:19, key to Romans 11:25; read part 2 which is down a few posts to see comments on vs 26.
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=7243209
It is true that all believers are spiritual descendants of Abraham (Galatians 3:7) but the word Israel is not applied here, and we must not try to read something into the text that is not there!
There is a certain understanding of the Spirit of the law vs letter of the Law. That "Israel" is not mentioned here should not deny gentile believers in the 'sonship of God' which is spirtual Israel and those in equal receipt of the Blessing of Abraham through salvation by faith. Gal 3:29 And if ye [be] Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed,
and heirs according to the promise.
Furthermore, those of national or Genetic Israel
have no active covenant due to the old covenant being judged weak, faulty and obsolete should be enough to recognize that there is no present tense "Israel"
other than 'spiritual descendents' of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The national descendants have no active coveant and are now "not a people"
but are counted among the nations, just as others. Gal 3:22 and Rom 11:32 again.
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are the elected by faith which continued as the 'sons of God" prophets and Israelites through faith and now through Christians.
John 1:12. 10 He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.
11 He came to His own, and His own did not receive Him.
12 But as many as received Him, to them He gave the right to become
children of God, to those who believe in His name:
13 who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, (compare Rom 9:16 above) nor of the will of man, but of God.
The Israelites of the flesh could not keep the conditional old land/nation covenant promise as God knew they would not. The disciples asked Jesus how many times to forgive... 70 times??? they asked? They were apparently referring to the 70 yrs of captivity in Babylon. But this would not be an accurate picutre of forgiveness but rather national punishment and national payment for failing to uphold their end of the old covenant. Then after Jeremiahs 70 yrs Daniel pleads for forgiveness and God had already predetermined a 70 X 7 period of reprisal of grace (forgiveness) concerning the old covenant (figured in Dan 490 yr prophecy). After 490 yrs, the period of "forgiveness" ends and judgement is then placed upon the Old "pattern" covenant and it's people who continually desire an earthly 'kingdom'. The "old covenat' of the land/nation promises of Deut 11-28 has been judged inferior
and is now obsolete and no longer in effect... has passed away. 2 Cor 3 and Hebrews 6-10. Jesus forgave 70 times 7 knowing the outcome of the judgement of their known inability to keep the Old covenant.
Concerning Gal 6:16,
When you begin to understand the rythm of Parallelisms, and Paul or the scribe/writer of Gal mind, you can perhaps understand that the "Israel of God" Gal 6:16 refers to
And as many as walk according to this rule that he has been describing concerning not submitting to circumcision of the flesh. Compare Eph 1:1 where Paul says "
and to the faithful in Christ Jesus"..
http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?t=6277764
Remember that in the OT, the New Covenant is always seen in the context of Israel only, because the inclusion of the Gentiles on an equal status was still a mystery, as Ephesians 3:5,6 plainly states.
I think it is that way because it is contrasted with the 'old covenant' in Jeremiah.
But, Eph 3:5;6 is not referring to including gentiles into any Old covenant Israel which was the land/nation covenant. Eph 3:5,6 includes all nations (gentiles and Jews) into the New Covenant promises of the Gospel as preached to Abraham.
and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel . Eph 2:11-18 talks of the process of making a new man of the two old men. It wasn't only the gentiles who needed to 'move'. Jews needed to leave the old covenant ways. Christ made Peace between those formerly of the (old Covenant) and those formelry outide the Commonwealth of "national' Israel.
Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, (between them) [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances;
This all happened, just as you say, but as I pointed out earlier, to see this as the fulfillment of Daniel 7:13,14 is just scripture-twisting.
I would say that to apply Dan 7:13, 14 to some future event would be to take this from it's historical period of the Roman kingdom which was the context provided by the 4th beast of Daniel 7. This is the transferal of Gods's spirit from the Old covenant fully to the New Covenant International church. This occured during the context of the Roman kingdom which is the context of Daniel 7:13,14.