The Ten Commitments

[ViaCrucis]

Seems a distinction without a difference, to me.

That's because social justice isn't something different than justice.

-CryptoLuthearn

 

[Halbhh]

Thanks for the response. What about the verses that are in contradiction to these ideas?

Such as throwing people in fire, Mt 3:10, 7:19 or dividing families Mt 10:21, or the flood Mt 24:37 etc. This is why I think the Bible is a bad source of morality. It has good and bad things in it.

These verses become far more clear if we listen to all the full text, fully through the entire book(s). That way, we get all of the needed context for each.

So, if you are interested:
Matthew 3:10 The axe lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (and 7:19)
This is explained more fully and helpfully in John 15:1-17 -- that any believer that refuses to follow the true and clear and easy to understand instructions of God, to love others as we love ourselves -- anyone refusing to bear that fruit -- such persons refusing to even try to do this aren't suitable for an eternal life and won't gain eternal life. Further, for believers, we learn in John 15 that we can only really succeed to the extent that we look to Christ and rely on Him as we seek to bear such fruit.

This all became clear finally only when I did that real listening in a full, complete reading, and it's the only way to understand such verses well.

Next you picked a verse from a time when believers were going to be persecuted in an extreme way because they followed Christ:
Matthew 10:21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rise against their parents and have them put to death.
It's saying simply that even close family members (that don't believe) will betray their Christian family members (inform on them, turn them over) to the mob or authorities in such times of intense persecution.

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
This verse is saying that when Christ returns for the final time (to come), it will be unexpected for most of the people, who will be living their lives as if nothing that matters will interrupt ordinary life as usual.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

These verses become far more clear if we listen to all the full text, fully through the entire book(s). That way, we get all of the needed context for each.

So, if you are interested:
Matthew 3:10 The axe lies ready at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. (and 7:19)
This is explained more fully and helpfully in John 15:1-17 -- that any believer that refuses to follow the true and clear and easy to understand instructions of God, to love others as we love ourselves -- anyone refusing to bear that fruit -- such persons refusing to even try to do this aren't suitable for an eternal life and won't gain eternal life. Further, for believers, we learn in John 15 that we can only really succeed to the extent that we look to Christ and rely on Him as we seek to bear such fruit.

It is clear that the instructions from God are not "Clear and easy". Christians don't agree on what it takes to be saved.

Next you picked a verse from a time when believers will be persecuted in an extreme way (though this has happened in the past also):
Matthew 10:21 Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rise against their parents and have them put to death.
It's saying simply that even close family members (that don't believe) will betray their Christian family members (inform on them, turn them over) to the mob or authorities in such times of intense persecution.

Will people betray others to death because of the ideas in the commitments?

Matthew 24:37 As it was in the days of Noah, so will it be at the coming of the Son of Man.
This verse is saying that when Christ returns for the final time (to come), it will be unexpected for most of the people, who will be living their lives as if nothing that matters will interrupt ordinary life as usual.

Jesus affirms that the flood happened and as such as He is God he decided to kill all but 8 people on earth.

 

[Sketcher]

The Ten Commitments:

1. Critical Thinking
2. Ethical Development
3. Peace and Social Justice
4. Service and Participation
5. Empathy
6. Humility
7. Environmentalism
8. Global Awareness
9. Responsibility
10. Altruism

They are explained here: Living Humanist Values: The Ten Commitments - TheHumanist.com

Seems to me that anyone, no matter what their beliefs, can get behind these ideas.

What do you object to here or what do you think should be changed or added?

If "social justice" means "equality of outcome" then that would indicate throwing away "responsibility."

 

[Halbhh]

Jesus affirms that the flood happened and as such as He is God he decided to kill all but 8 people on earth.

And God transported the portion that was wicked drowned in the Flood to become "spirits in prison" where Christ Himself came to give them the gospel message of salvation!
-- 1rst Peter chapter 3 verse 18 through chapter 4 verse 6.

A very fair chance! Grace. He is merciful to any that repent.

 

[Astrid]

If "social justice" means "equality of outcome" then that would indicate throwing away "responsibility."

If equal outcome is what social justice
warriors are out to bring about, they are
doomed to fail in that but may yet succeed
in great havoc, which may be the actual goal.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If "social justice" means "equality of outcome" then that would indicate throwing away "responsibility."

Nowhere in the description of social justice in the link I attached does it say "equality of outcome". There is a reason I attached the link so you could read it for yourself.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

And God transported the portion that was wicked drowned in the Flood to become "spirits in prison" where Christ Himself came to give them the gospel message of salvation!
-- 1rst Peter chapter 3 verse 18 through chapter 4 verse 6.

A very fair chance! Grace. He is merciful to any that repent.

He killed them all by drowning. He could have just killed them where they stood or make all the women barren and let them die off after a normal life. Then he could have transported them and given them the same chance to repent. Why did He choose a more cruel way to die?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

If equal outcome is what social justice
warriors are out to bring about, they are
doomed to fail in that but may yet succeed
in great havoc, which may be the actual goal.

Did anyone read the link? You went further to give them a bad motive "succeed in great havoc" just because they are unbelievers. This is the true discrimination and a show of Christian priviledge, assumed bad motives because of unbelief.

 

[Sketcher]

Nowhere in the description of social justice in the link I attached does it say "equality of outcome". There is a reason I attached the link so you could read it for yourself.

I did read it, but many people who advocate for equality of outcome say the same things that site does about social justice. That's why I threw that out there.

 

[Halbhh]

He killed them all by drowning. He could have just killed them where they stood or make all the women barren and let them die off after a normal life. Then he could have transported them and given them the same chance to repent. Why did He choose a more cruel way to die?

Cruelty -- that's a very good thing to carefully consider(!).

My sense is that few people, and I think even few in churches, have been able to comprehend/accept what the text says was happening just before the Flood -- a situation so extreme the mind doesn't want to encompass it.

We tend to want to discount it, just not see it. Or if someone does see it, maybe the mind self-protectively forgets....

Like if we don't look, it will go away.

Maybe many people read it and then their mind refuses to allow the words to be what they are saying.

But the wording is about a shocking situation.
Verses 5 through 11, with more than one surprise (including destroying a pet favorite theory of many that God foresees all things, disproven here in my opinion). Have a look, if you like:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

[I think many people can't quite grasp, or maybe it's they can't quite accept, that wording: that the culture of the peoples had descended to the point where they had only evil thoughts, and all of the time. A fantastically extreme level of evil that we'd grope to try to find any parallel for....
...maybe one would think of the guards herding people into the gas chambers at Auschwitz, but...well, worse. They had not any love or compassion anywhere at all, not even occasional. Not even sometimes. Zero love, zero kindness. Only rape and murder and brutality, constant, everywhere, all the time.]

6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

[Here in my view the idea God foresees all things is disproven. In my opinion.]

7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” ...

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.

[Only violence, everywhere, all the time, and filling all places and probably even all hours of the day.]

Ok, see why this seems hard for many to grasp? They don't want to acknowledge -- or maybe it's just strong reluctance to think about... -- that humans can do something like Auschwitz, or worse....

When things are this bad, living that way is cruelty, already.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

I did read it, but many people who advocate for equality of outcome say the same things that site does about social justice. That's why I threw that out there.

Many Christians once thought slavery was ok, is it ok for me to think that about you because you are a Christian?

 

[Astrid]

Did anyone read the link? You went further to give them a bad motive "succeed in great havoc" just because they are unbelievers. This is the true discrimination and a show of Christian priviledge, assumed bad motives because of unbelief.

This is a remarkable misreading of what I said.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

Cruelty -- that's a very good thing to carefully consider(!).

My sense is that few people, and I think even few in churches, have been able to comprehend/accept what the text says was happening just before the Flood -- a situation so extreme the mind doesn't want to encompass it.

We tend to want to discount it, just not see it.

Like if we don't look, it will go away.

Maybe many people read it and then their mind refuses to allow the words to be what they are saying.

But the wording is about a shocking situation.
Verses 5 through 11, with several real surprises (including destroying a pet favorite theory of many that God foresees all things, disproven here in my opinion). Have a look, if you like:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

God says this about everyone today. No one is good not one.

[I think many people can't quite grasp, or maybe it's they can't quite accept, that wording: that the culture of the peoples had descended to the point where they had only evil thoughts, and all of the time. A fantastically extreme level of evil that we'd grope to try to find replicated anywhere...maybe one would think of the guards herding people into the gas chambers at Auschwitz, but...well, worse. Not any love or compassion anywhere at all, not even occasional. Not even here or there. But zero love, zero kindness. Only rape and murder and brutality, constant, everywhere, all the time.]

Except Noah right? I will say again, God could have dealt with the problem a more humane way, he is God right. Setting an example for future people to always act humanely. Why does He just go to drowning them off the bat?

6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

[Here in my view the idea God foresees all things is disproven. In my opinion.]

7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” ...

What did the animals ever do?

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.

[Only violence, everywhere, all the time, and filling all places and probably even all hours of the day.]

Except Noah right?

Ok, see why this seems hard for many to grasp? They don't want to acknowledge -- or maybe it's just strong reluctance to think about... -- that humans can do something like Auschwitz, or worse....

When things are this bad, living that way is cruelty, already.

So then do we as moral people treat them cruelly? Hitler may have deserved to be drowned but it would have been immoral to put him into a room and flood it until he died. That would make us immoral as well. An eye for an eye is immoral.

 

[Sketcher]

Many Christians once thought slavery was ok, is it ok for me to think that about you because you are a Christian?

That seems to be the biggest red herring I have seen in a long time.

 

[Astrid]

Cruelty -- that's a very good thing to carefully consider(!).

My sense is that few people, and I think even few in churches, have been able to comprehend/accept what the text says was happening just before the Flood -- a situation so extreme the mind doesn't want to encompass it.

We tend to want to discount it, just not see it. Or if someone does see it, maybe the mind self-protectively forgets....

Like if we don't look, it will go away.

Maybe many people read it and then their mind refuses to allow the words to be what they are saying.

But the wording is about a shocking situation.
Verses 5 through 11, with more than one surprise (including destroying a pet favorite theory of many that God foresees all things, disproven here in my opinion). Have a look, if you like:

5 The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth, and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.

[I think many people can't quite grasp, or maybe it's they can't quite accept, that wording: that the culture of the peoples had descended to the point where they had only evil thoughts, and all of the time. A fantastically extreme level of evil that we'd grope to try to find any parallel for....
...maybe one would think of the guards herding people into the gas chambers at Auschwitz, but...well, worse. They had not any love or compassion anywhere at all, not even occasional. Not even sometimes. Zero love, zero kindness. Only rape and murder and brutality, constant, everywhere, all the time.]

6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled.

[Here in my view the idea God foresees all things is disproven. In my opinion.]

7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.” ...

11 Now the earth was corrupt in God’s sight and was full of violence.

[Only violence, everywhere, all the time, and filling all places and probably even all hours of the day.]

Ok, see why this seems hard for many to grasp? They don't want to acknowledge -- or maybe it's just strong reluctance to think about... -- that humans can do something like Auschwitz, or worse....

When things are this bad, living that way is cruelty, already.

The proposal here is that Eskimos, Australian
aboriginies, Chinese fishermen, desert
nomads of Africa and Asia
dwellers of rainforests in New Guinea
and Brazil, were all simultaneously
beset by 24 hour depravity and
violence?
How we wonder did the word get
around, and everyone take to it?

Would not such ill behaviour as described
put a quick end to any society?
Seems so hard for an economy to
function with no work, trust or
cooperation.

How would you explain any of this?

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

That seems to be the biggest red herring I have seen in a long time.

No, you said

I did read it, but many people who advocate for equality of outcome say the same things that site does about social justice. That's why I threw that out there.

My response was:
Many Christians once thought slavery was ok, is it ok for me to think that about you because you are a Christian?

I was pointing out the fallacy that just because a group of people use the same language or title does not mean that they believe the same things. So what do you disagree with in the text of the commitments as written in the link about social justice? Not what you think other people mean by social justice.

 

[The happy Objectivist]

The Ten Commitments:

1. Critical Thinking
2. Ethical Development
3. Peace and Social Justice
4. Service and Participation
5. Empathy
6. Humility
7. Environmentalism
8. Global Awareness
9. Responsibility
10. Altruism

They are explained here: Living Humanist Values: The Ten Commitments - TheHumanist.com

Seems to me that anyone, no matter what their beliefs, can get behind these ideas.

What do you object to here or what do you think should be changed or added?

My objections are too many and would take too long to list and explain. My main problem with Humanism is that it is just a secularized version of religious morality, the morality of self-sacrifice or altruism. Altruism is incompatible with human nature. I'm speaking of altruism as it was originally defined.

 

[Clizby WampusCat]

My objections are too many and would take too long to list and explain. My main problem with Humanism is that it is just a secularized version of religious morality, the morality of self-sacrifice or altruism. Altruism is incompatible with human nature. I'm speaking of altruism as it was originally defined.

How about as it is defined in the link I posted? That is what we are discussing. It may be against our human nature but why is it not good to strive to be more altruistic?

 

[The happy Objectivist]

How about as it is defined in the link I posted? That is what we are discussing. It may be against our human nature but why is it not good to strive to be more altruistic?

Because altruism is evil. You are saying sure, it goes against nature which means against facts but why shouldn't we strive to do it anyway in contradiction to the facts. The whole notion makes a mockery of the concept of good.

As I've said, it is incompatible with human nature and with the nature of every living thing. That means it's incompatible with the facts of reality. Selfless concern for the welfare of others, from the definition in your link, means that the welfare of others must come first and your own second, always. If one were to put this principle into action, life would be impossible. It would have to mean the sacrifice of all values including one's own life, as concern for one's own life is selfish.

But life requires the achievement of values, not their sacrifice. Life is a process of self-generated, self-sustaining action. By the definition you provided, this is immoral if selflessness is the standard of the moral. That means that to live is immoral.

In the whole history of the world, no philosophy has ever justified selflessness rationally. Why do you think that is?