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CF has always been a site that welcomes people from different backgrounds and beliefs to participate in discussion and even debate. That is the nature of its ministry. In view of recent events emotions are running very high. We need to remind people of some basic principles in debating on this site. We need to be civil when we express differences in opinion. No personal attacks. Avoid you, your statements. Don't characterize an entire political party with comparisons to Fascism or Communism or other extreme movements that committed atrocities. CF is not the place for broad brush or blanket statements about groups and political parties. Put the broad brushes and blankets away when you come to CF, better yet, put them in the incinerator. Debate had no place for them. We need to remember that people that commit acts of violence represent themselves or a small extreme faction.
The Ten Commandments
- Thread starter alli_boo
- Start date
Ok, I'm usually one to necessitate specificity in forum posting, but I think saying 'ten commandments' on an officially Christian board should be rather assumed. If you don't know the ten Christian commandments, then feel free to ask, and someone will tell you. If you want to know which ordering they are using, that is tangental to this debate and you really should say so instead of saying which commandments. They're the same ones either way.Phred said:
And, for your reference:
Those are usually the accepted text of the ten commandments in Scripture. The matter of ordering generally results in either both of the covet (last two) commandments being fused into one, or in both of the idolatry points (first two) being fused into one.Exodus 20:3-17 said:
The statement of God's mercy and wratch is USUALLY not considered a commandment per se, though there is at least one ordering that I have heard which views it as such. (Can't remember the denomination though)
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Those are the commandments that were accepted and adressed by the last two pages worth of people Phred. Kindly read back a little ways, and you'd notice that you're the only one who asked what was an essentially unecessary question.Phred said:
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mpshiel --
To covet means to want a specific thing that belongs to another. If you have a car, it's all right for me to want one just like it if that desire leads me to work for the money to purchase an identical car at the dealership. It is not all right for me to want to take your car.
To covet means to want a specific thing that belongs to another. If you have a car, it's all right for me to want one just like it if that desire leads me to work for the money to purchase an identical car at the dealership. It is not all right for me to want to take your car.
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Eph. 3:20
Well-Known Member
My two cents worth...
What is of importance here is the fact that we do not relate to God on a legal basis now (by following a certain set of laws and ordinances). We relate to God by the principle of love. We are judged on how our actions demonstrate love for God or love for man. The Commandments were practical expressions of how we are to act towards God and towards each other. As Ananel said, we now relate to God by the "Law of Love" (Matt 22:37, Mk. 12). The Commandments were based on the principle of love and now with Jesus' teaching the principle becomes that by which we are measured. God made a new covenant with us. It is not like the OT covenant that is based on a written code (2 Cor. 3:6). The operating principle is "Spirit" not "Letter." Our whole relationship is based on heart issues, not on obedience issues.
The primary difference between the two covenants, in terms or human involvement, is that the "law" of the new covenant would be inscribed on the hearts of the people by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 5:5). The "Law of Love" would be within us and would result in our lawful behaviour. This new operating principle does what the old written law could never do. The written law only showed us our sin and it's penalty. Under the new covenant, love motivates and empowers people to do what is right towards God and other people. Love is central to Jesus'/Paul's teaching (1 Cor. 13:8).
Those who love fulfill God's Law...all of it.
"Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law." (Rom. 13:10)
-Eph.
What is of importance here is the fact that we do not relate to God on a legal basis now (by following a certain set of laws and ordinances). We relate to God by the principle of love. We are judged on how our actions demonstrate love for God or love for man. The Commandments were practical expressions of how we are to act towards God and towards each other. As Ananel said, we now relate to God by the "Law of Love" (Matt 22:37, Mk. 12). The Commandments were based on the principle of love and now with Jesus' teaching the principle becomes that by which we are measured. God made a new covenant with us. It is not like the OT covenant that is based on a written code (2 Cor. 3:6). The operating principle is "Spirit" not "Letter." Our whole relationship is based on heart issues, not on obedience issues.
The primary difference between the two covenants, in terms or human involvement, is that the "law" of the new covenant would be inscribed on the hearts of the people by the Holy Spirit (Rom. 5:5). The "Law of Love" would be within us and would result in our lawful behaviour. This new operating principle does what the old written law could never do. The written law only showed us our sin and it's penalty. Under the new covenant, love motivates and empowers people to do what is right towards God and other people. Love is central to Jesus'/Paul's teaching (1 Cor. 13:8).
Those who love fulfill God's Law...all of it.
"Love does no harm to its neighbour. Therefore love is the fulfilment of the law." (Rom. 13:10)
-Eph.
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Unfortunately, many Christians might say that we don't have to obey "the law" because of this reference:
But Paul is only speaking of what has dominion over us, the old man, or sin.
But when we died and raised with Christ (Rom. 6:1-11), the man that relied on the law for justification died. We are not justified by the law, "for that all have sinned:" (Rom 5:12). Now we rely on grace for justification.
To say that "we no longer rely on the law for justification" equals "we don't have to obey it" is errouneous.
Also, one must note the difference between the law, ordinances, and statutes. Blood ordinances (offerings) are no longer valid (Heb. 9:10 cp. Eph. 2:13-15. Col. 2:13-14, 20.).
(Rom 6:14-15) For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. {15} What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
But Paul is only speaking of what has dominion over us, the old man, or sin.
But when we died and raised with Christ (Rom. 6:1-11), the man that relied on the law for justification died. We are not justified by the law, "for that all have sinned:" (Rom 5:12). Now we rely on grace for justification.
To say that "we no longer rely on the law for justification" equals "we don't have to obey it" is errouneous.
Also, one must note the difference between the law, ordinances, and statutes. Blood ordinances (offerings) are no longer valid (Heb. 9:10 cp. Eph. 2:13-15. Col. 2:13-14, 20.).
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Which have little to nothing to do with the ten directly. The topic is with regards to the ten, and your list of cited sources indicate the many points at which it is validated that law still applies. Mark 12 indicates the specific nature of that law, and the ten fit perfectly within it. As such, I would say you clearly validate (if you add in reference to the Law of Love) the continued presence of the ten commandments, as it seems you so desire.RVincent said:
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Ananel said:
That's why it was only a brief insert at the end and not the main body of my argument.
I'm gonna have to stay away from the Forum for a while. School started for me and I'll be busy. I get so distracted so easy and I find myself not paying attention to what people say and the wall start to close in on me and is that the moon in my kitchen?
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billwald
Contributor
The Mosiac Covenant was a social contract for those who would live in Israel. There isn't one single verse in Exo thru Deut that requires a reference to gentiles living outside the Land or to righteousness and condemnation in the next world. It is strictly temporal. Find me one verse that is not also mentioned or inferred in a prior covenant.
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Eph. 3:20
Well-Known Member
billwald said:
Are you saying that Gentile believers are not/were not bound by any moral law? That when Jesus/Paul spoke and referred to the law they only applied it to those from the house of Israelnot to new believers? Just trying to get a clearer understanding of what your saying.
-Eph.
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The Hebrews were not the only monotheistic believers in the MIddle East at that time. Read Exodus and you'll see where they encountered other tribes and nations of fellow believers.
The Hebrews were the chosen people because God had a special mission for them (i.e., they were to be the conduit for Christ to come into the world). The Ten Commandments are the basic laws by which all believers should live; after that are the various specific laws for the Jewish people to set them apart from other tribes and cultures, and after that the Levitical laws for the priests and temple workers.
When Christ cited Rabbi Hillel by quoting, "Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength; and love your neighbor as you love yourself," He was boiling down the Ten Commandments into two positive proactive commands.
If we love someone, we put them ahead of ourselves and we take care not to knowingly do anything that would harm or displease them. We don't have to be banned from negative behavior if we are so focused on good behavior that the negative is never an option.
The Hebrews were the chosen people because God had a special mission for them (i.e., they were to be the conduit for Christ to come into the world). The Ten Commandments are the basic laws by which all believers should live; after that are the various specific laws for the Jewish people to set them apart from other tribes and cultures, and after that the Levitical laws for the priests and temple workers.
When Christ cited Rabbi Hillel by quoting, "Love God with all your heart, mind, and strength; and love your neighbor as you love yourself," He was boiling down the Ten Commandments into two positive proactive commands.
If we love someone, we put them ahead of ourselves and we take care not to knowingly do anything that would harm or displease them. We don't have to be banned from negative behavior if we are so focused on good behavior that the negative is never an option.
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Phred
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1. condescend -- (behave in a patronizing and condescending manner)Ananel said:
2. condescend, deign, descend -- (do something that one considers to be below one's dignity)
3. condescend, stoop, lower oneself -- (debase oneself morally, act in an undignified, unworthy, or dishonorable way; "I won't stoop to reading other people's mail")
4. patronize, patronise, condescend -- (treat condescendingly)
.
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fragmentsofdreams
Critical loyalist
He quoted Leviticus and Deuteronomy.Talmidah said:
I have also heard that a rabbi may have used this summary before Jesus.
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Oddly enough, no. I view your question to have been unecessary and make no bones about saying so. The first two pages have accepted without comment the assumption that the ten commandments are the Christian ones. No alternate has been presented, even by you in asking. Your entrance two pages later demanding a definition for the ten commandments is both unecessary and invalid without some clear reason to view there to be an alternate possibility.Phred said:
So far, I have not condescended. I apologize if you took my 'tone' in typing incorrectly, but my intention has really been quite direct. Your question was unecessary, and further debate is truthfully also unecessary as we're taking up valuable space with a meaningless tangent.
If you are insinuating that you would not condescend to do so, that is your call, but it only validates the inappropriateness of your question, as it was already answered by tacit consent.
I apologize to those actually discussing the matter for taking up another post with this comment and will not respond to Phred on this matter in this forum again. He should probably be entitled to one response.
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No, He was quoting Rabbi Hillel (whom I believe lived about a century before Him). Hillel's full quote is (as best I remember) was regarding the most important parts of the Torah: "Love God, love your fellow man; all else is commentary."Talmidah said:
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Not to mention the source from which both derived their teaching in Deuteronomy.Buzz Dixon said:
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Talmidah
היום כולם יודעים - הרב כהנא צדק
fragmentsofdreams said:
fragmentsofdreams said:
And you shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your means. Deut 6:5
You shall neither take revenge from nor bear a grudge against the members of your people; you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am the Lord. Lev 19:18
fragmentsofdreams said:
That would have been Hillel.
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