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The Ten commandments!!!
- Thread starter Melbelle
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The Thadman said:"In order to be a good Christian, one must be a good Jew first." -Pastor George (a.k.a. Nehemiah_Center on ChristianForums.com)
But there was no New Testament at the time of Peter's writing, so he would be talking about the OT.
For example, do you actually think that Paul actually thought that his letters to his friends about specific problems that they wrote to him about would one day be counted as scripture? We know that parts of Paul's writings aren't even "God-breathed" because he, himself, said that they come from him and not God?
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
Thadman,
OK so we now understand that you do not accept the writings of Paul to be the inspired Word of God, but just letters with no authority or revelance.
trucker
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Symes,
Please comment on John 15:10, specificly on the words "my commandments" and "my Father's commandments."
We agree that Jesus kept the 10 commandments and here Jesus says He kept His Father's commandments.
What then are the commandments Jesus calls "my."
trucker
Please comment on John 15:10, specificly on the words "my commandments" and "my Father's commandments."
We agree that Jesus kept the 10 commandments and here Jesus says He kept His Father's commandments.
What then are the commandments Jesus calls "my."
trucker
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The Thadman
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trucker said:
Paul, was a crucial part of the early church, and a master of Jewish rhetoric. In order to properly understand the context of Jesus' teachings we need to consult Paul to get the broadest image.
To bottom line it, prophesy is prophesy, and whole of the Bible is made up of prophesy and history. What was revealed to Paul as the word of God would fit that glove. But Paul, himself, says that parts of his letters were not God's word, but his own (Ex: 1 Cor 7:12), and the letters were written to deal with very specific issues dealing with problems in the respective churches they were sent to (he mentions who he sends them to, specifically).
The Scriptures, which are mentioned in 2 Timothy 3 we know, at the time of writing, referred to the Tanakh, as the "New" Testament was not compiled until many years later. In Acts 17 we see that the noble Jews in Beroea checked the Tanakh to see of what Paul said was true, and in the end agreed with him.
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
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Hi Andre
You wrote
therefore if we are going to be judged on our own rigteousness we will never make it
PSALM 7 [6] Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.[7] So shall the congregation of the people compass thee about: for their sakes therefore return thou on high.[8] The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.[9] Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Well? Verse 8 seems to contadict what you said. And this scripture is speaking of when Jesus returns. So it appears theres more to it than just saying you believe in Christ and his righteousness.
You wrote
therefore if we are going to be judged on our own rigteousness we will never make it
PSALM 7 [6] Arise, O LORD, in thine anger, lift up thyself because of the rage of mine enemies: and awake for me to the judgment that thou hast commanded.[7] So shall the congregation of the people compass thee about: for their sakes therefore return thou on high.[8] The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.[9] Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.
Well? Verse 8 seems to contadict what you said. And this scripture is speaking of when Jesus returns. So it appears theres more to it than just saying you believe in Christ and his righteousness.
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The Thadman
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trucker said:
Can you cite a reference to support this? "X days later" on a Jewish calendar (be it Hillel or Lunar) indicates the number of sunsets between "now" and the time indicated.
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
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The Thadman
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trucker said:
Future indicatives, within semitic languages, are either in the future tense, or used as a PLEA. For example, in the Lord's Prayer we see "Your Kingdom will come." which can also be translated as "LET your Kingdom come." In other words, "Your Kingdom WILL (emphasis on the will) come."
In this case, translating as imperative in English is the closest we can get to convey the same meaning, as Semitic languages and English have drastically different tenses, otherwise we might use:
"You WILL NOT have any other gods than I."
"You WILL NOT murder."
etc.
Which some translations do (many use "shall" instead of "will").
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
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The Thadman
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Wreck n Sow said:
Also, Jesus speaking:
Matthew 5 20 For I tell you that unless YOUR righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, there is no way you will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven.
As I have said before, "righteousness" is proper adherence to Torah (which, as Jesus and Paul state elsewhere, includes a proper heart). Paul sets up a dichotomy between "righteousness" and "Torahlessness" (2 Cor 6:14) usually translated as "iniquity" but is literally "anomos" (without the Law (of Moses)).
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
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Hi Thadman,
You wrote
As I have said before, "righteousness" is proper adherence to Torah
Sorry about my ignorance Thadman but is the Torah simply the 10 commandments? Or is it more than that? Have you found scripture that will prove this out? What ive found seems to deal with 10 commandments alone.
DO RIGHTEOUSNESS
1JOHN2 [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.[29] If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
DEUT.6 [25] And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments
PSALM 119 [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.[173] Let thine
hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.[174] I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
For all thy commandments are righteousness. Also mentioned here is salvation. Being saved.
ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
LORD-REDEEMER-HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL(no question as to who that is). The new testament says Jesus was the WORD of God that became flesh. The only WORD of God around when Jesus came was the old testament. In Isaiah our Redeemer tells us we are to keep the commandments if we are to be righteous.
The new testament says the same thing the old testament said.
1COR.15 [34] Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1 JOHN 3 [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
LUKE 1 [6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
1 PETER 4 [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
And if not for the gift of grace through faith no one would be saved for all have fallen short. Except of course, JESUS.
You wrote
As I have said before, "righteousness" is proper adherence to Torah
Sorry about my ignorance Thadman but is the Torah simply the 10 commandments? Or is it more than that? Have you found scripture that will prove this out? What ive found seems to deal with 10 commandments alone.
DO RIGHTEOUSNESS
1JOHN2 [28] And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.[29] If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
DEUT.6 [25] And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the LORD our God, as he hath commanded us.
it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments
PSALM 119 [172] My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments are righteousness.[173] Let thine
hand help me; for I have chosen thy precepts.[174] I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; and thy law is my delight.
For all thy commandments are righteousness. Also mentioned here is salvation. Being saved.
ISAIAH 48 [17] Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, the Holy One of Israel; I am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go.[18] O that thou hadst hearkened to my commandments! then had thy peace been as a river, and thy righteousness as the waves of the sea:
LORD-REDEEMER-HOLY ONE OF ISRAEL(no question as to who that is). The new testament says Jesus was the WORD of God that became flesh. The only WORD of God around when Jesus came was the old testament. In Isaiah our Redeemer tells us we are to keep the commandments if we are to be righteous.
The new testament says the same thing the old testament said.
1COR.15 [34] Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.
1 JOHN 3 [7] Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.[8] He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning.
1 JOHN 3 [4] Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
LUKE 1 [6] And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
1 PETER 4 [17] For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?[18] And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
And if not for the gift of grace through faith no one would be saved for all have fallen short. Except of course, JESUS.
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The Thadman
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Wreck n Sow said:
Within the Jewish understanding of scripture, the "Old Testament" is made up of three parts:
The Torah or Law: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy.
The Neviim or Prophets: Joshua, Judges, 1 Sam, 2 Sam, 1 Kings, 2 Kings, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the Treisar (the "Minor Prophets": Hosea, Joel, Amos, Obadiah, Jonah, Michah, Nahum, Kabakkuk, Zaphaniah, Haggai, Zechariah, and Malachi)
The Ketuvim or Writings: Psalms, Proverbs, Job, the Megliot (Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther), Daniel, Ezra, Nehemiah, 1 Chronicles, 2 Chronicles.
This is why many Jews refer to the Old Testament as the "Tanakh" (an acronym for "Torah Neviim Ketuvim").
In Jesus' day, the accepted Jewish writings were the Torah and the Neviim, where the Ketuvim were in the process of "officially" being inducted as "cannon."
We can see in many places that "commandments" do not refer only to the 10 commandments. (5 examples of 200 instances: Leviticus 27:34, Num 3:39, 15:22, Deut 6:1,11:8), and in the verses you cited there was reference to -all- commandments.
Plus, if "righteousness" was set up in a dichotomy against "Torahlessness" (litterally, anomos which means "without or against the Law) in Paul's letters, what are we to conclude?
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
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Sorry again
Plus, if "righteousness" was set up in a dichotomy against "Torahlessness" (litterally, anomos which means "without or against the Law) in Paul's letters, what are we to conclude?
Dichotomy?
Not sure what your saying? Conclude about Pauls letters?
Plus, if "righteousness" was set up in a dichotomy against "Torahlessness" (litterally, anomos which means "without or against the Law) in Paul's letters, what are we to conclude?
Dichotomy?
Not sure what your saying? Conclude about Pauls letters?
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OK
Nevermind, i see what your saying now. But Paul was either speaking of circumcism or the law contained within the ordinances or other carnal ordinances when he spoke of righteouness not being of the law.
Nevermind, i see what your saying now. But Paul was either speaking of circumcism or the law contained within the ordinances or other carnal ordinances when he spoke of righteouness not being of the law.
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The Thadman
Well-Known Member
Wreck n Sow said:
Which verse specifically are you talking about, that I may address it properly?
Shlomo,
-Steve-o
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Well Thadman
Actually i was speaking in general. For example the book of Galatians. Its a real short book and circumcism is mentioned 16 times and the word commandments is not mentioned even once. Yet people will point to scripture in galatians and say we need not keep the 10 commandments.
Actually i was speaking in general. For example the book of Galatians. Its a real short book and circumcism is mentioned 16 times and the word commandments is not mentioned even once. Yet people will point to scripture in galatians and say we need not keep the 10 commandments.
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So what is this duty we are commanded to do? It appears in Luke that we are to keep the commandments. As a servant of God, its our duty.
LUKE 17 [7] But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?[8] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?[9] Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.[10] So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Seems like everything that is said in the new testament has already been said in the old. And yes, we are all unprofitable servants (all have sinned, and come short of the glory, thank God for grace) but we have done that which was our duty to do and have done all those things which are commanded (ECC.12 verse 13)The 10 commandments.
ECCLESIASTES 12 [11] The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.[12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
The conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
LUKE 17 [7] But which of you, having a servant plowing or feeding cattle, will say unto him by and by, when he is come from the field, Go and sit down to meat?[8] And will not rather say unto him, Make ready wherewith I may sup, and gird thyself, and serve me, till I have eaten and drunken; and afterward thou shalt eat and drink?[9] Doth he thank that servant because he did the things that were commanded him? I trow not.[10] So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.
Seems like everything that is said in the new testament has already been said in the old. And yes, we are all unprofitable servants (all have sinned, and come short of the glory, thank God for grace) but we have done that which was our duty to do and have done all those things which are commanded (ECC.12 verse 13)The 10 commandments.
ECCLESIASTES 12 [11] The words of the wise are as goads, and as nails fastened by the masters of assemblies, which are given from one shepherd.[12] And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books there is no end; and much study is a weariness of the flesh.[13] Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
The conclusion of the whole matter. Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
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Hey there all
PSALM 94 [11] The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.12] Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;[13] That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
Teach out of thy law, until pit digged for the wicked
PSALM 119 [84] How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me? [85] The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.[86] All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
They who are not after the law have dug pits and ALL thy commandments are faithful
PROVERBS 28 [9] He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.[10] Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.
Those who turn from hearing the law will fall into pit they themselves dug
ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.[17] Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.[18] And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.[22] And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Well, heres the end of the story. The Day of the Lord. Those that have transgressed the law of God will end up in the pit and scripture says in Revelation that those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus will end up in the Kingdom. Those in the pit will be visited after many days. A thousand years maybe?
REV.20 [1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
YUP. A thousand years. Looks like those that do not try to keep Gods 10 commandments will be having some company in the pit. Kinda makes Saddams wormhole look rather appealing.
The new testament says if you break one of the commandments, you break them all. Has the whole world been decieved as the bible claims? Will good intentions or a warm fuzzy at a sunday go to meeting lead us to the kingdom of God or must we keep His commandments AND have faith in Jesus as scripture says.
PSALM 94 [11] The LORD knoweth the thoughts of man, that they are vanity.12] Blessed is the man whom thou chastenest, O LORD, and teachest him out of thy law;[13] That thou mayest give him rest from the days of adversity, until the pit be digged for the wicked.
Teach out of thy law, until pit digged for the wicked
PSALM 119 [84] How many are the days of thy servant? when wilt thou execute judgment on them that persecute me? [85] The proud have digged pits for me, which are not after thy law.[86] All thy commandments are faithful: they persecute me wrongfully; help thou me.
They who are not after the law have dug pits and ALL thy commandments are faithful
PROVERBS 28 [9] He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.[10] Whoso causeth the righteous to go astray in an evil way, he shall fall himself into his own pit: but the upright shall have good things in possession.
Those who turn from hearing the law will fall into pit they themselves dug
ISAIAH 24 [3] The land shall be utterly emptied, and utterly spoiled: for the LORD hath spoken this word.[4] The earth mourneth and fadeth away, the world languisheth and fadeth away, the haughty people of the earth do languish.[5] The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant.[6] Therefore hath the curse devoured the earth, and they that dwell therein are desolate: therefore the inhabitants of the earth are burned, and few men left.[17] Fear, and the pit, and the snare, are upon thee, O inhabitant of the earth.[18] And it shall come to pass, that he who fleeth from the noise of the fear shall fall into the pit; and he that cometh up out of the midst of the pit shall be taken in the snare: for the windows from on high are open, and the foundations of the earth do shake.[22] And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Well, heres the end of the story. The Day of the Lord. Those that have transgressed the law of God will end up in the pit and scripture says in Revelation that those that keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus will end up in the Kingdom. Those in the pit will be visited after many days. A thousand years maybe?
REV.20 [1] And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.[2] And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,[3] And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
YUP. A thousand years. Looks like those that do not try to keep Gods 10 commandments will be having some company in the pit. Kinda makes Saddams wormhole look rather appealing.
The new testament says if you break one of the commandments, you break them all. Has the whole world been decieved as the bible claims? Will good intentions or a warm fuzzy at a sunday go to meeting lead us to the kingdom of God or must we keep His commandments AND have faith in Jesus as scripture says.
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