The Ten commandments!!!

clinzey · Apr 20, 2004

The Thadman said:
Food does not bring us closer to God, because the Pharisees believed that by following their oral tradition (their additional purity laws) they were closer to God, that God was obligated by their "higher state of purity" to tend to them first. What do you think Pharisee means? Separated one, separated from humanity and closer to God

You're reading too much into Paul at this point. He's talking about the ability of food to bring close or keep away from God. Food in and of itself is a neutral thing. While the Markan context of Jesus' cleansing all foods directly follows the passage on ritual cleansing, we still see a general theme in the NT (including Peter's vision) that food isn't an issue any more.

ischus · Apr 20, 2004

clinzey said:
But Jesus did declare all foods clean - Mark 7:19. Cleanliness isn't a ritualistic matter anymore, it's an issue of the heart.

Andre said:

Thus He declared all foods clean... This part is there in the text, it was written by Mark, I think it's pretty clear to me.

Click to expand...

Thad said:

That's a Markan parenthesis which the majority of scholars will agree is not part of the original text. The rest would agree that it is Mark's own private interpretation, as the other two Syntopic Gospels do not have such a remark. Mark did not know Jesus, and as a result was not present when these words were spoken.

Click to expand...

I would disagree with everyone here. First of all, Thad, your comment is completely false, and you were ignorantly assuming that scholars consider it a latter addition. Where do you get this information from? Certainly not from a scholar! This is definitely part of the greek text. There is not one variant which omits this phrase! However, I do agree with your conclusions for the most part.

Secondly, the word, "he" does not appear in the text. There is only a participle here in the Greek, and the word, katharizo means "to cleanse" or "purify;" meaning that the correct translation should be, "cleansing all foods," or "purifying all foods." IF you read the text correctly, you will notice that the natural meaning of the text is that the food enters the stomach, and is then eliminated, which makes the food clean. This is not a reference to Jesus making the food clean, but rather it is the digestive and excretory sysytem which cleanses the food.

I know this is a little gross to talk about, but most Jews (except the Qumran essenes) thought excrement to be "clean." The Mishna supports the fact that excrement was not ritually impure, (although it may be offensive). Rabbi Jose is recorded to say, "Is excrement Impure? IS it not for the purpose of cleanliness?"

Also, if Jesus was actually declaring n this pasage that all foods are clean, why is this verse never used in any early church disputes over clean and unclean foods?

Most of our English translations do not correctly translate this verse, which has caused many such arguments such as the current one on this thread.

The verse is definitely in every greek manuscipt, but Jesus is not declaring all foods clean here.

Remnant · Apr 20, 2004

sethsmommy said:
I know some people belive that if you follow the ten commandments you'll go to heaven..

but everyone lies and one of the commandments is thou shalt not lie am I right...

Lets look at the law and 'commanments' and see exactly what it is.

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
KJV

It is interesting to note what the first official law that God passed down to Moses. It reads:

Ex 12:41-51
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
42 It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
KJV

So the law of circumcision for the Passover was the first official law(there were ordinances before that)

Interesting.

Whats the NT say about this?

Gal 3:17
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
KJV

So it was pointing to a promise. What promise?

Rom 4:13-16
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV

So. The promise is belief. Faith. Righteousness by faith. How?

Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
KJV

So why the law then and now?

Gal 3:24
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
KJV

O.K. And then what?

Gal 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

So what exactly, according to scripture, was the law then used for?

Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

ALL RIGHT! What a promise. But the problem still exists, in our mind anyway: Are will still under the law?

Yes and No.
WHAT!!!!!
How dare you say such a thing!!!!Grrrrrrrrrr..

1 Tim 1:8-10
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
KJV

AHHH.heres a clue to why the law is still in effect. To teach the lawless..

But us, who have Christ:

Rom 7:25
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Heb 9:22
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
KJV

kermit the toad · Apr 20, 2004

OpenMinded-Protestant said:
Hi Sethsmommy, I actually have a little brother named seth.. anyways, I dont think the bible really supports that theory, That would mean Jesus didnt need to come and die/rise for us.

However, one of my favorite authors, Erwin Raphael McManus, thinks that the 10 commandments may be Gods minimum standard for all of us! Its not something that we should have as our main goal (being able to obey all 10) it should be the least that we do!! God Bless!!!

The coming of Jesus saved us (so long as we have faith) BUT we obey the commandments and other "laws" because it is a way to honour God and because it is, for the most part, just common sense to do these things. They are a guide for living a good life.

The Thadman · Apr 20, 2004

ischus said:
I would disagree with everyone here. First of all, Thad, your comment is completely false, and you were ignorantly assuming that scholars consider it a latter addition. Where do you get this information from? Certainly not from a scholar! This is definitely part of the greek text. There is not one variant which omits this phrase! However, I do agree with your conclusions for the most part.

I apologize, my mistake was to say "text" I meant to say "conversation," i.e. that it was not something that was originally said.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

ischus · Apr 20, 2004

Ok. Sorry about my comment then, but you understand that all I had to go by was your post. (Oh, the joys of internet communication !)

The Thadman · Apr 20, 2004

clinzey said:
You're reading too much into Paul at this point. He's talking about the ability of food to bring close or keep away from God. Food in and of itself is a neutral thing. While the Markan context of Jesus' cleansing all foods directly follows the passage on ritual cleansing, we still see a general theme in the NT (including Peter's vision) that food isn't an issue any more.

I'm asking who the letter was addressed to. It was to deal with specific problems in specific congregations, and one of the largest problems (like found in Acts 15) had to do with adherence to the oral law which fits the context perfectly.

I agree that it is a bigger issue: Faith.

If one does not have faith, they have bigger problems.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Apr 20, 2004

Remnant said:
Lets look at the law and 'commanments' and see exactly what it is.

1 John 3:4
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
KJV

How else do we know sin? Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 May it never be! ... .

It is interesting to note what the first official law that God passed down to Moses. It reads:

Ex 12:41-51
41 And it came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years, even the selfsame day it came to pass, that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt.
42 It is a night to be much observed unto the LORD for bringing them out from the land of Egypt: this is that night of the LORD to be observed of all the children of Israel in their generations.
43 And the LORD said unto Moses and Aaron, This is the ordinance of the passover: There shall no stranger eat thereof:
44 But every man's servant that is bought for money, when thou hast circumcised him, then shall he eat thereof.
45 A foreigner and an hired servant shall not eat thereof.
46 In one house shall it be eaten; thou shalt not carry forth ought of the flesh abroad out of the house; neither shall ye break a bone thereof.
47 All the congregation of Israel shall keep it.
48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
50 Thus did all the children of Israel; as the LORD commanded Moses and Aaron, so did they.
51 And it came to pass the selfsame day, that the LORD did bring the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt by their armies.
KJV

So the law of circumcision for the Passover was the first official law(there were ordinances before that)

Interesting.

That's the Passover alright An ordinance forever. 49 One Torah shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

Whats the NT say about this?

Gal 3:17
17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
KJV

So it was pointing to a promise. What promise?

Rom 4:13-16
13 For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14 For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
KJV

So. The promise is belief. Faith. Righteousness by faith. How?

Jeremiah 31

Gal 3:13
13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
KJV

So why the law then and now?

Gal 3:24
24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
KJV

You missed the next verse.

25 But now that faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

Note the Jewish parallelism: Once we truly know Jesus, we'll know the Law. We won't need to be tutored in it anymore.

O.K. And then what?

Gal 5:18
18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
KJV

If we are led in the Spirit, the entire Torah is in our hearts. We just -do- it.

Jesus followed it perfectly, every letter, and we are to be imitators of him.

So what exactly, according to scripture, was the law then used for?

Gal 3:14
14 That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
KJV

ALL RIGHT! What a promise. But the problem still exists, in our mind anyway: Are will still under the law?

Yes and No.
WHAT!!!!!
How dare you say such a thing!!!!Grrrrrrrrrr..

1 Tim 1:8-10
8 But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully;
9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
KJV

AHHH.heres a clue to why the law is still in effect. To teach the lawless..

But us, who have Christ:

Rom 7:25
25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.
KJV

Paul just said it. With his mind he follows the Torah where he struggles in his flesh under the law of sin (see the pun in parallelism?). Paul in Romans 7:25 is saying to follow the Torah, and the rest of Romans specifies the Torah as Jesus taught it.

Heb 9:22
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
KJV

Please, the only thing I can say is to read the entire chapter that comes before this verse. It is a Jewish dialogue with Jews, do not take it out of context.

All in all, this was a HUGE Bible-clipping job, eliminating context, which I can honestly say has not helped your argument.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Apr 20, 2004

kermit the toad said:
The coming of Jesus saved us (so long as we have faith) BUT we obey the commandments and other "laws" because it is a way to honour God and because it is, for the most part, just common sense to do these things. They are a guide for living a good life.

Just a question (actually to everyone out there): do you wear tzitzyot?

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Apr 20, 2004

ischus said:
Ok. Sorry about my comment then, but you understand that all I had to go by was your post. (Oh, the joys of internet communication !)

Completely understood

"Cybertime," however, is forgiving, allowing for easy correction of my ambiguities and goofs.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

clinzey · Apr 20, 2004

The Thadman said:
Just a question (actually to everyone out there): do you wear tzitzyot?

Nope - don't follow the Old Covenant unless it's been reiterated in the New Covenant.

The Thadman · Apr 21, 2004

clinzey said:
Nope - don't follow the Old Covenant unless it's been reiterated in the New Covenant.

It was reiterated in the "New" Covenant. Jesus wore them.

Matthew 14:35 When the men of that place recognized him, they sent into all that surrounding region, and brought to him all who were sick,
36 and they begged him that they might just touch the tzitzyot of his garment. As many as touched it were made whole.

Mark 6:56 Wherever he entered, into villages, or into cities, or into the country, they laid the sick in the marketplaces, and begged him that they might touch just the tzitzyot of his garment; and as many as touched him were made well.

Luke 8:43 A woman who had a flow of blood for twelve years, who had spent all her living on physicians, and could not be healed by any,
44 came behind him, and touched the tzitzyot of his cloak, and immediately the flow of her blood stopped.

Also, how do you deal with parts of the "Old" Covenant that are called, by God himself, "ordinances forever"?

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

kermit the toad · Apr 21, 2004

The Thadman said:
Just a question (actually to everyone out there): do you wear tzitzyot?

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

No...but I'm not Jewish. I don't see how this question has any relevance to what I posted.

EDIT: Having read your posts since the one I quoted, I see why you think it is relevant. Old Covenant rules generally apply only to Israelites unless reiterated in the New Testemant. Since I am a Gentile, those laws that are restated do not apply to me.

Also, Jesus wearing tzitzyot does not reiterate this rule. Jesus was a Jew himself and, therefore, this only made sense. It is a rule for the Israelites.

ischus · Apr 21, 2004

Thad,

Are you saying that the word translated "forever" in english is the equivalent of "from now until the end of the world?"

The Thadman · Apr 21, 2004

ischus said:
Thad,

Are you saying that the word translated "forever" in english is the equivalent of "from now until the end of the world?"

The word in question is /`olam/ which generally means "eternity" or "forever."

Exodus 12:14 This day (The Passover) shall be to you for a memorial, and you shall keep it a feast to Yahweh: throughout your generations you shall keep it a feast by an ordinance forever (`olam).

Jesus used two forms of its Aramaic counterpart in the Lord's Prayer according to the Peshittâ (/l`olam `almeen, ameyn/ "Forever eternal, Amen").

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

The Thadman · Apr 21, 2004

kermit the toad said:
No...but I'm not Jewish. I don't see how this question has any relevance to what I posted.

EDIT: Having read your posts since the one I quoted, I see why you think it is relevant. Old Covenant rules generally apply only to Israelites unless reiterated in the New Testemant. Since I am a Gentile, those laws that are restated do not apply to me.

Also, Jesus wearing tzitzyot does not reiterate this rule. Jesus was a Jew himself and, therefore, this only made sense. It is a rule for the Israelites.

But according to Isaiah 56, gentiles who unite themselves with YHWH are charged with keeping the Mosaic Torah.

Isaiah 56:1 Thus says Yahweh, Keep you justice, and do righteousness; for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
2 Blessed is the man who does this, and the son of man who holds it fast; who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and keeps his hand from doing any evil.
3 Neither let the foreigner (i.e. GENTILES), who has joined himself to Yahweh, speak, saying, "Yahweh will surely separate me from his people!"; neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
4 For thus says Yahweh of the eunuchs who keep my Sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and hold fast my covenant:
5 To them will I give in my house and within my walls a memorial and a name better than of sons and of daughters; I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
6 Also the foreigners who join themselves to Yahweh, to minister to him, and to love the name of Yahweh, to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath from profaning it, and holds fast my covenant;
7 even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.
8 The Lord Yahweh, who gathers the outcasts of Israel, says, Yet will I gather others to him, besides his own who are gathered.

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

Sephania · Apr 21, 2004

thereselittleflower said:
The 10 Commandments were given to the Israelites and were part of the Old Covenant . .but they were based on the moral and spiritual laws built into God's creation . . and as such, are still a valid experession of that moral and spiritual law . .

But Christ gave us a fuller expression of that moral and spiritual law . .

Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

AND

Thou shalt love thy Neighbor as thyself!

These 2 Commandments go much father than the 10 Commandments for they incorporate the Golden Rule, not just the Silver Rule . .

The 10 Commandments tell us what we are not to do morally . .

The Silver Rule of Ethics tells us

"Do not do to others what you do not want them to do to you" . . .

So the 10 Commandments tell us what not to do .. the same things we would not want others to do to us . . it is stated in the negative and is a minimum standard to live by . .that is, till Christ.

But when Christ came, He went farther than the Sliver Rule . . He takes us to the Golden Rule Do unto others what you would have them do to you . . Love thy neighbor as thyself.

He takes us from a negative expression of God's moral law underlying God's creation, to the positive expression of it . . LOVE

So the 10 Commandments do remain a very valid, though limited, expression of God's moral law . . and so they are of importance to us today as basic guildes in the realm of the Silver Rule of Ethics . .

But they are transcended by the 2 Commandments given us by Jesus, just as the Silver Rule is transcended by the Golden Rule.

Peace in Him!

What you are calling the 2 commandments given by Jesus and these are possitive instead of negative are the same that can be found first, in the Torah.

The first, to love G-d with all your heart is found in Deut. 6:5, This is part of what is called the Shema, Jews around the world say this every day, at least once ( usually three times) and it is one of the first prayers taught to a child before they can even speak.

It goes like this:

Shema ( listen, hear) Israel, Adonai El-henu, Adonai, Echad

Hear O Israel, the L-RD our G-d the L-RD is one! And you shall love the L-RD your G-d with all your heart and with all your soul, and with all your might!

And the "new" one that Jesus taught about love? No, the L-RD G-d taught this 1,500 years before Messiah was born to us, In Leviticus, in a re-telling of the "10" plus some more, I think you will see that the G-d of Israel,the G-d of the "Old Testament" didn't wait to teach these things until it was time for Messiah to come. Everything that Jesus/Yeshua taught came from the Torah, he IS the Living Torah, he is and was from everlasting, it was he who spoke with Moses and gave him these "laws" of his.

Leviticus 19
1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.
3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.
4 Turn ye not unto idols, nor make to yourselves molten gods: I am the LORD your God.
5 And if ye offer a sacrifice of peace offerings unto the LORD, ye shall offer it at your own will.
6 It shall be eaten the same day ye offer it, and on the morrow: and if ought remain until the third day, it shall be burnt in the fire.
7 And if it be eaten at all on the third day, it is abominable; it shall not be accepted.
8 Therefore every one that eateth it shall bear his iniquity, because he hath profaned the hallowed thing of the LORD: and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
9 And when ye reap the harvest of your land, thou shalt not wholly reap the corners of thy field, neither shalt thou gather the gleanings of thy harvest.
10 And thou shalt not glean thy vineyard, neither shalt thou gather every grape of thy vineyard; thou shalt leave them for the poor and stranger: I am the LORD your God.
11 Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.
12 And ye shall not swear by my name falsely, neither shalt thou profane the name of thy God: I am the LORD.
13 Thou shalt not defraud thy neighbour, neither rob him: the wages of him that is hired shall not abide with thee all night until the morning.
14 Thou shalt not curse the deaf, nor put a stumblingblock before the blind, but shalt fear thy God: I am the LORD.
15 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honor the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
16 Thou shalt not go up and down as a talebearer among thy people: neither shalt thou stand against the blood of thy neighbour; I am the LORD.
17 Thou shalt not hate thy brother in thine heart: thou shalt in any wise rebuke thy neighbour, and not suffer sin upon him.
18 Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I am the LORD.
19 Ye shall keep my statutes. Thou shalt not let thy cattle gender with a diverse kind: thou shalt not sow thy field with mingled seed: neither shall a garment mingled of linen and woollen come upon thee.
20 And whosoever lieth carnally with a woman, that is a bondmaid, betrothed to an husband, and not at all redeemed, nor freedom given her; she shall be scourged; they shall not be put to death, because she was not free.
21 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD, unto the door of the tabernacle of the congregation, even a ram for a trespass offering.
22 And the priest shall make an atonement for him with the ram of the trespass offering before the LORD for his sin which he hath done: and the sin which he hath done shall be forgiven him.
23 And when ye shall come into the land, and shall have planted all manner of trees for food, then ye shall count the fruit thereof as uncircumcised: three years shall it be as uncircumcised unto you: it shall not be eaten of.
24 But in the fourth year all the fruit thereof shall be holy to praise the LORD withal.
25 And in the fifth year shall ye eat of the fruit thereof, that it may yield unto you the increase thereof: I am the LORD your God.
26 Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, nor observe times.
27 Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.
28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
29 Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.
30 Ye shall keep my sabbaths, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.
31 Regard not them that have familiar spirits, neither seek after wizards, to be defiled by them: I am the LORD your God.
32 Thou shalt rise up before the hoary head, and honour the face of the old man, and fear thy God: I am the LORD.
33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
35 Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
36 Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
37 Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.

Sephania · Apr 21, 2004

marcie said:
OF COURSE THERE IS A PROBLEM, I AM CHRISTIAN AND YOU ARE A JEW, WE LOVE JEWS YET THE CHRISTIANS AND JEWS HAVE DIFFERENCES. Most Jews on these forums are believers in our Messiah, do you think that there is a separate place in heaven for the Jewish believers and the Christian believers? What part of the body of Messiah are the Jewish believers? the Christian believers?

JESUS THE SON OF GOD IS THE DIFFERENCE. The only difference I see is that we call him by his name given to his mother from the Angel , Yeshua. Everything else I see is interpretive. We see the bible as written to us in a continuim from Genesis to Revelation. Christians mistakenly see it as a divided "shared" book. The new being for them. But tell me, how do the gentiles get a new covenant just for them when they never had an old one? Who was the new covenant promised to and what does it consist of?

I HAVE MY HANDS FULL WITH THE LUKEWARM CHRISTIANS. I REALLY DONT HAVE TIME TO GET INTO JUDEO/CHRISTIAN THEOLOGIES . Wow, I am sure we don't mean to make your plate too full to try to understand the root of your faith.

Most orthodox Christians profess and teach the New Testament has not replaced the Old Testament, it has completed it. Christians believe in plenary inspiration, which means that every word of the entire Bible is God-breathed (2 Peter 1:21). Not all Christians believe this, in fact from what I have read on these forums, not many do.

Sephania · Apr 21, 2004

marcie said:
Jews observe saturdays, christians sunday for thousand of years, The commandment in Exodus 20:8-11 states that the seventh day of the week, Saturday, is the day which the Lord selected as the day of rest and worship. However, in the New Testament the Christian church began to worship and rest on the first day of the week, Sunday. the command to set Saturday apart as a day of rest and worship is the only commandment not repeated. There are very good reasons for this.

I see that Steve has addressed this but I would like to add that the L-RD did not just "select" this day as just any out of seven. He specifically "made" the evening and the morning of the seventh day, the day of rest, ON the very seventh day that He completed his creation. Everytime we honor the Sabbath, and keep it we are honoring Him as the creator of the universe and all that is in it. This is honoring Yeshua who is the creator as well, for all things wre mad by him and without him was not any thing made that was made. The L-RD repeats what he thinks of those that honor it or don't honor it many times throughout the books. If it were not important why would he do this. And Does he change His mind? He and Yeshua both said that they change NOT. This is what He said:

8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:
11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So, is it no longer Holy? should we not honor the creator G-d once a week in celebration of His marvelous works? Has he made another day Holy instead? Why the seventh day only? Read verse 11, He explains it well. Those who believe in evolution are very happy about those that do not honor the creator G-d on this weekly "anniversary" It is a day He blessed, and made Holy, you have to ask yourself, who blessed and made Holy Sunday?

By His resurrection on the first day of the week (Matt. 28:1), His continued appearances on succeeding Sundays (John 20:26), and the descent of the Holy Spirit on Sunday (Acts 2:1), the early church was given the pattern of Sunday worship. This they did regularly (Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:2). Sunday worship was further hallowed by our Lord who appeared to John in that last great vision on "the Lord's day" (Rev. 1:10). It is for these reasons that Christians worship on Sunday, rather than on the Jewish Sabbath

The important issue is WE HONOR IT.

How can you honor something on the wrong day? Yeshua was found gone from the tomb on the first day of the week because that is when the Jews were allowed to leave their homes and travel, they couldn't on a Shabbat. ( Matt 28:1) If he first visited them on a Sunday ( 1st day) and you count 8 days it would be Sun night to Mon night ( 1st day still of wk day 1) Mon night to Tue night ( 2nd day of wk - day 2) Tue night to wed night ( 3rd day of wk - day 3) wed night to Thur night ( 4th day of wk - day 4) thur night to fri night ( 5th day of wk - day 5) fri night to sat night ( 6th day of wk - day 6) Sat night to Sunday night ( 7th day of week - day 7) Sunday night to monday night ( 1st day of week - day 8)

Now the Jewish day is from evening to evening, so if they saw him earlier on and it was still the same day (the first day of the week) it would be actually dawning towards monday when he came into them and Saw Thomas. Eight days later from the time he saw them would be Monday before sundown.

In Acts where does it say he rose to heaven on Sunday? If you count 40 days from Saturday night you get to thursday.

As far as Revelations goes, John was in the spirit on the L-RDS day, the L-RDS day in Jewish reconing, from the L-RD himself is friday evening to Sat evening. This is a day that we believe the doors to heaven are opened and ones soul is closest to the L-RD on that day. This would have been the true Sabbath that the vision was seen on.

Andre · Apr 21, 2004

The Thadman said:
It was reiterated in the "New" Covenant. Jesus wore them.

Also, how do you deal with parts of the "Old" Covenant that are called, by God himself, "ordinances forever"?

Shlomo,
-Steve-o

They were a covenant forever until one of the two parties died, God never dies, but when we acept Christ we are born again, we are a new creation and we are not bound to the Old Covenant anymore we are bound to the New Covenant in wich we are not under the Law, but under Grace. Doesn't mean we can go sinning at will, but the Law will be written in our hearts and we will be convicted of our sin by the Holy Spirit, something that didn't happen before the day of Pentecost.
Jesus followed the whole Law of the Old Covenant perfectely, that's why He wore all the appropriate clothing.

Romans 7

1 Or do you not know, brethren (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has jurisdiction over a person as long as he lives?
2 For the married woman is bound by law to her husband while he is living; but if her husband dies, she is released from the law concerning the husband.
3 So then, if while her husband is living she is joined to another man, she shall be called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from the law, so that she is not an adulteress though she is joined to another man.
4 Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law through the body of Christ, so that you might be joined to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit for God.
5 For while we were in the flesh, the sinful passions, which were aroused by the Law, were at work in the members of our body to bear fruit for death.
6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.
7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."
8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Colossians 2

9 For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
10 and in Him you have been made complete, and He is the head over all rule and authority;
11 and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ;
12 having been buried with Him in baptism, in which you were also raised up with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
13 When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
14 having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
15 When He had disarmed the rulers and authorities, He made a public display of them, having triumphed over them through Him.
16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day--
17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

Ephesians 2
8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God;
9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.
11 Therefore remember that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called " Uncircumcision" by the so-called " Circumcision," which is performed in the flesh by human hands--
12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world.
13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall,
15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.
17 AND HE CAME AND PREACHED PEACE TO YOU WHO WERE FAR AWAY, AND PEACE TO THOSE WHO WERE NEAR;
18 for through Him we both have our access in one Spirit to the Father.

Romans 6
1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase?
2 May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it?
3 Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death?
4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection,

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