The Ten Commandments stands for ever.

IreneAdler · Mar 23, 2010

k, so it is a love only deal. just checking.

IreneAdler · Mar 23, 2010

I think we believe alot of the same things with different jargon

Frogster · Mar 23, 2010

Yab Yum said:
Do the justified but unsanctified get to heaven? If so, what is sanctification for? If not, what's the difference between sanctification and justification other than one half is what we need to do, the other half is what Christ does?

Hi yab..from what I have seen,most of the sanctification verses,indicate it as done.I suppose there could be one indicating being done.

1 Corinthians 1:2 (Show me 1 Corinthians 1)
To the church of God that is in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints together with all those who in every place call upon the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, both their Lord and ours:

1 Corinthians 6:11 (Show me 1 Corinthians 6)
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

I see it as done,from God's standpoint.

But one thing is for sure,man cant do,what is the job of the Spirit.It is kind of like one of those mystical things,done,but we see it as being done,by the spirit.

2 Cor 3;18 And we all, with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, [6] are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.

I see it as done by Christ.

titus 2;14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works.

Just like how we were crucified,past tense.

IreneAdler · Mar 23, 2010

"for I am crucified with christ and yet I live.... not I but christ that lives within me..." sorry, song caviat

Frogster · Mar 23, 2010

I find lawkeepers to be embarressing.

Peter called the law a yoke,in Acts 15;10.

It is called bondage 4 times in Galatians,it is not of faith,it is being under a strict pedagogue,as a child,elemental,worldy and crude.We did not receive the Spirit by the law.

So to those who glory in circumcision made by hand,in the flesh....enjoy!:o

And to those who say,it pleases God.I would ask,if lawkeeping pleases God,then that means pleasing God means you are separated from Him.

These verses contradict the fact that Jesus wants little lawkeepers walking about.

Gal 5:1 For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery.2 Look: I, Paul, say to you that if you accept circumcision, Christ will be of no advantage to you. 3 I testify again to every man who accepts circumcision that he is obligated to keep the whole law. 4 You are severed from Christ, you who would be justified by the law; you have fallen away from grace.

IreneAdler · Mar 23, 2010

In ways it is, but it depends on your perspective. I think that people who cry law for salvation or justification are wrong, but those that find joy in it shouldnt' shame you.

Elder 111 · Mar 24, 2010

Yekcidmij said:
For those obsessed with what day of the week to rest/worship, I still have yet to see any of them actually observe the appropriate day. Assuming that our Saturday is THE 7th day is incorrect. God didn't issue Moses a Gregorian Calendar. There are several calendars in the Hebrew Bible, the most prominant 2 being a lunar calendar and a solar calendar. If you were to use a lunar (actually a luni-solar) calendar as Jews did in the Second Temple period you would base the beginning of the month on the first sighting of the moon after the New Moon and you would begin the New Year on the first day of the week, unless you were an Essene in which case your New Year began on the 4th day of the week. If you were to say that 1 Nisan is the New Year (and the Rabbi's mention at least 4 possible new year days with 1 Nisan and 1 Tishri being the most prominent in the bible) then it's important to note that the New Year began on what would be 16 (or 17) March on our calendar meaning that today (23 March) is either the First Day of the week or the 7th day of the week depending on when that first sliver of the moon was sighted after the New Moon on 15 March.

The biblical ways of calculating days were done by observation of the moon and sun, not by mathematical precise methods (there is no 365.25 day calendar in the ancient world). I wonder how many people are observing a biblical Sabbath today (23 March)? Probably none. Hypocrites.

It had nothing to do with no yearly calender. Just the weekly cycle. Jesus kept the Sabbath and the bible clearly teaches that the Sabbath was the day after His death and the day before resurrection (mat.28:1 Mar. 16:2 Luke 24:1). We have no problem with the other days why with the Sabbath?

IreneAdler · Mar 24, 2010

well, we can disagree on that (that he rose again Sunday) but I do agree that it's rather difficult to screw up the seven day thing

Frogster · Mar 24, 2010

God gave us his Spirit now.Paul,speaking of himslef,or Peter,said he he went back under a law system,he would be a sinner.Gal 2;18.

So really lawkeepers are grieving the Spirit,that God gave as a better way.

2cor 3;9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

Lawkeepers are saying they can do a better job!

IreneAdler · Mar 24, 2010

but people who practice Torah law aren't "under the law"... please understand it's NOT REQUIRED but chosen

Stryder06 · Mar 24, 2010

Frogster said:
God gave us his Spirit now.Paul,speaking of himslef,or Peter,said he he went back under a law system,he would be a sinner.Gal 2;18.

So really lawkeepers are grieving the Spirit,that God gave as a better way.

2cor 3;9 For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory.

Lawkeepers are saying they can do a better job!

Froggy, the OT believers had the Holy Spirit. The prophets of God and the patriarchs had the Holy Spirit. Lawkeepers only grieve the Holy Spirit if they are missing the love of Christ in their life. Seeking the Kingdom of God through works grieves the Spirit.

Either you are a lawkeeper or you are a lawbreaker. What continues to be a point of contention here is what law is to be kept.

IreneAdler · Mar 24, 2010

If you like to exercise daily and frankly I find that more bondage than the law, then it's your choice. No one makes you. No one says you're somehow bound up for doing it. In fact, people usually think it's a good thing and support you (and think - better him than me). Why can people not view this the same way?

Stryder06 · Mar 24, 2010

IreneAdler said:
If you like to exercise daily and frankly I find that more bondage than the law, then it's your choice. No one makes you. No one says you're somehow bound up for doing it. In fact, people usually think it's a good thing and support you (and think - better him than me). Why can people not view this the same way?

Selfishness...tradition...some honestly just don't see it yet.

IreneAdler · Mar 24, 2010

I'm just worn out being expected to practice like other people. Worn out on the idea that somehow what someone else thinks is "right" means that what moves me spiritually should change. It gets old.

Stryder06 · Mar 24, 2010

Perhaps. I figure it's not so much what one thinks is right, because someone has to be right, but what is right. Some people are right about some things, and some people are right about others. The bible is the answer.

IreneAdler · Mar 24, 2010

No, God is the answer. The bible is a tool, but I digress. I know the feeling I had the first time I lit Shabbat candles was just wonderful, and peaceful and just amazing. I don't need to argue to "prove" that happened. It is what it is.

Frogster · Mar 24, 2010

Stryder06 said:
Froggy, the OT believers had the Holy Spirit. The prophets of God and the patriarchs had the Holy Spirit. Lawkeepers only grieve the Holy Spirit if they are missing the love of Christ in their life. Seeking the Kingdom of God through works grieves the Spirit.

Either you are a lawkeeper or you are a lawbreaker. What continues to be a point of contention here is what law is to be kept.

U dont think that since pent,there was a change?
Did all have the spirit n them prior to that?

Is it a ministry of the spirit,or flesh,trying to do it?

It says by the spirit,put to death the deeds of the body in rom 8;13.Not law,not human effort..

Yekcidmij · Mar 24, 2010

Elder 111 said:
It had nothing to do with no yearly calender. Just the weekly cycle. Jesus kept the Sabbath and the bible clearly teaches that the Sabbath was the day after His death and the day before resurrection (mat.28:1 Mar. 16:2 Luke 24:1). We have no problem with the other days why with the Sabbath?

It has everything to do with what calendar you are using. If you were using a biblical lunar calendar where the New Year begins on the first day of the week then your 7th day of the week isn't necessarily going to line up with Saturday on our calendar. And we don't use the same calendar system that Jesus used; and our weekly cycle is not the same as that in the bible. Our weeks, though occuring in a cycle of 7 days, do NOT line up with the weeks in the bible. If were were to use a biblical weekly cycle and a biblical way of reckoning things, then the sabbath was yesterday and today is the first day of the week (based on 1 Nisan as New Year's Day). So, in order to insist that we observe an actual biblical sabbath, it's going to be very important to make sure it's the proper day; and Saturday isn't it this year.

I don't think it matters what day you have off work and/or assemble with others to worship God. Saturday is fine. Sunday is fine. If you want to memorialize the 7th day of the week or the first day of the week, it doesn't really matter. So if you want to say that it's important to just have a day off work, but it doesn't matter what day, that's all good. Sunday is just as good as Saturday, and a lot of people have both days off anyway. But there is no command that we are to assemble on Saturday or have that day off. When God commands Moses on things concerning Sabbath, He didn't have a Gregorian Calendar in mind. You are more than welcome to commit anachronisms and make God say things about Saturday that He never said, but don't try to force that onto other believers.

Just realize that your observance of the 7th day of the Gregorian Calendar is not the same as that of the 7th day of the lunar or solar calendars of the bible; your observance is out of your own personal convictions and not out of an actual command from God.

IreneAdler · Mar 24, 2010

Does it count that Orthodox Jews start Shabbat on Friday still? I'm thinkin they've been pretty consistent since before the NT was written.

Yekcidmij · Mar 24, 2010

IreneAdler said:
Does it count that Orthodox Jews start Shabbat on Friday still? I'm thinkin they've been pretty consistent since before the NT was written.

The Rabbinical Calendar changed in the middle ages; they aren't using the biblical system either.

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