The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Please follow along, it exactly says this....

Gal 3:2 And I went up [a]by revelation, and communicated to them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to those who were of reputation, lest by any means I might run, or had run, in vain. 3 Yet not even Titus who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised. 4 And this occurred because of false brethren secretly brought in (who came in by stealth to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage), 5 to whom we did not yield submission even for an hour, that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

6 But from those who seemed to be something—whatever they were, it makes no difference to me; God [b]shows personal favoritism to no man—for those who seemed to be something added nothing to me. 7 But on the contrary, when they saw that the gospel for the uncircumcised had been committed to me, as the gospel for the circumcised was to Peter 8 (for He who worked effectively in Peter for the apostleship to the circumcised also worked effectively in me toward the Gentiles), 9 and when James, [c]Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised. 10 They desired only that we should remember the poor, the very thing which I also was eager to do.

11 Now when [d]Peter had come to Antioch, I [e]withstood him to his face, because he was to be blamed; 12 for before certain men came from James, he would eat with the Gentiles; but when they came, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing [f]those who were of the circumcision. 13 And the rest of the Jews also played the hypocrite with him, so that even Barnabas was carried away with their hypocrisy.

14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, [g]why do you compel Gentiles to live as [h]Jews? 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not [i]justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified.

17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died [j]in vain.”

So what law are the referring to, the law of circumcision which they were compelling Titus to get to hear the gospel and be saved like Paul also said in other letters Acts 15:1 as if they could save themselves and no longer need the blood of Christ, this is what Paul was teaching, not obeying God's personal written Testimony Exo 31:18, mans all Ecc 12:13-14 that is perfect for converting our souls is not the law that is bewitching them. Like only worshipping the One True God is bewitching them, or not murdering their neigh is bewitching them. Its a sad teaching..

What is the main theme throughout Galatians is the law of circumcision

Gal 2:3,7,8,9,12, Gal 5:2,6,11 Gal 6:12,13,15.

The context tells us what law is being referred to because there are lots of different laws, and throwing out a law that was never in the context or trying to make it say the perfect law written by the finger of God is the law that bewitched the Galatians is not really understanding the character if God because He gave His law to show us the righteous way to live in His image which His law reflects His character- perfect, holy, righteous,

The times Paul IS referring to the Ten Commandments says when not keeping them, one will not see heaven. How confusing would that be to tell them the Ten Commandments is bewitching you Galatians yet if you break them, you will not inherit the kingdom of God which results in death.

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, [e]fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, 21 envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Not according to Paul 1 Cor 7:19 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

There are many different laws Neh 9:13 and not understanding the differences and throwing a law out that is never taught in scriptures and something Jesus kept who is our example I do not believe is going to work out so well according to God's Word.

Anway, I think it's time for me to move along. I do wish you well.

What you’re ignoring is that the Torah, which includes the Circumcision, also includes the Decalogue.

But the point is this - the Decalogue is unrelated to the New Covenant, since the New Covenant entails the Law as expressed by Christ our True God, who summarized it as two commandments, being something that if we break it, we can be forgiven for that, although we should strive to keep the law, but we are no longer damned if we transgress it. That is the good news of the Gospel.

The belief that Christians can save themselves through adherence to the Law is a form of Pelagianism or Sinless Perfectionism. And the belief that Christians do not engage in sin after becoming Christians is also a form of Sinless Perfectionism, and this is a serious doctrinal error.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 26, 2025

The Liturgist said:
What you’re ignoring is that the Torah, which includes the Circumcision, also includes the Decalogue.

But the point is this - are you denying that Christians can obtain forgiveness for breaking the Ten Commandments?

The Ten Commandments is a separate law according to God.

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

After God wrote and God spoke the Ten Commandments He added no more Deut 5:22- it is a separate unit divinely written by the God of the Universe

There is no circumcision is the Ten Commandments in God's personal Testimony Exo 20:1-17 Exo 31:18

All other laws were written by Moses placed besides the Ten Commandments, outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-26. Your argument is not really with me.

I see you are not reading my posts or the scripture references, so I don't see a need to continue.

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
The Ten Commandments is a separate law according to God.

Deut 4:13 So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.

There is no circumcision is the Ten Commandments in God's personal Testimony Exo 31:18

All other laws was written by Moses placed besides the Ten Commandments, outside the ark as a witness against Deut 31:24-26. Your argument is not really with me.

I see you are not reading my posts or the scripture references, so I don't see a need to continue.

I have read all of your posts and your scripture references. I don’t agree that the scripture says what you claim it says.

There also remains the issue of the Eucharist in the New Covenant as described by God Himself in Matthew 26 and in John 6. We are required to eat His Body and Blood. It is an integral and inseparable part of the New Covenant, for according to the Bible, we drink the blood of our Lord which was poured out for us and for many for the Remission of Sins.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 26, 2025

The Liturgist said:
What you’re ignoring is that the Torah, which includes the Circumcision, also includes the Decalogue.

But the point is this - the Decalogue is unrelated to the New Covenant, since the New Covenant entails the Law as expressed by Christ our True God, who summarized it as two commandments, being something that if we break it, we can be forgiven for that, although we should strive to keep the law, but we are no longer damned if we transgress it. That is the good news of the Gospel.

The belief that Christians can save themselves through adherence to the Law is a form of Pelagianism or Sinless Perfectionism. And the belief that Christians do not engage in sin after becoming Christians is also a form of Sinless Perfectionism, and this is a serious doctrinal error.

like you say the 2 summaries of the Ten Commands are just that, a summary and serves as you already know to teach us that the Ten commandments that is, the Covenant, is based fully and entirely on LOVE.

When the veil of the temple was rent in two, we immediately had access to GOD as it was then in the Garden of Eden where ADAM , EVE and GOD were. We NOW have access to GOD through Jesus Christ, all things have changed. However Christ was clear that the lawless will not inherit the Kingdom.

Yes all have sinned but now, we can through the Holy Spirit, perfect and ready ourselves for The Kingdom of Heaven. It is Why Jesus told us He would send the Holy Spirit to help us and teach us all things.

JOHN 14:26, NKJV
"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you."

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 26, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Indeed, so do I, and so do the Lutherans. Now, I don’t believe the Lutheran position is entirely correct,

The Liturgist said:
The Orthodox believe in the portion of the above which I have placed in bold text.

The portion I placed in Italics, we believe that some people can overcome sin in this life, but most can’t, realistically, which is why we are dependent on the mercy of Jesus Christ to forgive us for our sins.

this confirms the Words of Christ when he said;

Matthew 22:14: "For many are called, but few are chosen."
This comes from the Parable of the Wedding Feast, where Jesus explains the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 20:16: "So the last will be first, and the first last. For many are called, but few chosen."
Luke 13:23-24: "Then one said to Him, 'Lord, are there few who are saved?' And He said to them, 'Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.'"
Here, Jesus emphasizes the difficulty of entering the kingdom of God, indicating that while many seek, not all will enter.

The Liturgist said:
Additionally the Orthodox reject the doctrines of soul sleep and of annhilationism, and believe that those of us who will be saved will continue to be perfected in Heaven,

do you have any verses that point to this?

RandyPNW · Mar 26, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
The Bible does present the Ten Commandments as the covenant itself. In Exodus 34:28, it is written:

"So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV)

This clearly states that the Ten Commandments are the covenant. When we look at Jeremiah 31:31-33, we see God speaking of a new covenant, but notice what He says:

"Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord.
But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people."

This passage does not say the law itself would change. Instead, it tells us that instead of being written on stone, it would be written in our hearts and minds. That means the law remains the same, but its place changes, from external tablets to internal conviction. This is why we see in the Gospels of John, Matthew, Luke and Mark, Jesus teaching the commandments and magnifying them.

Now, let's connect this with the Ark of the Covenant. In Deuteronomy 10:1-5, God commanded Moses to place the two tablets of the Ten Commandments inside the Ark:

"At that time the Lord said to me, ‘Hew for yourself two tablets of stone like the first, and come up to Me on the mountain, and make yourself an ark of wood... Then I turned and came down from the mountain, and put the tablets in the ark which I had made; and there they are, just as the Lord commanded me.’"

This shows the special place of the Ten Commandments, inside the Ark, symbolizing their central role in the covenant. But what about the rest of the law? In Deuteronomy 31:24-26, Moses wrote the book of the law and placed it beside the Ark:

"So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: ‘Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you.’”

This distinction is important. The Ten Commandments were placed inside the Ark, showing their eternal, unchanging nature as the foundation of the covenant. The rest of the law was placed beside the Ark, acting as a witness.

Now, when Jeremiah speaks of the law being written in our hearts, he is speaking of the same law—the Ten Commandments. The "new" part of the covenant is not that the law changes but that God Himself ensures it is within us, guiding us from within rather than being an external set of rules. This aligns perfectly with how Jesus upheld and fulfilled the law, always pointing back to love for God and neighbor as the foundation of obedience (Matthew 22:36-40).

So, the New Covenant is not about replacing the Ten Commandments but about making them part of who we are, just as they were placed inside the Ark.

Blessings

God's Law can be written on our heart under a new and different covenant than the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was transitory and only "for all your generations" in the sense that it was perennial, from generation to generation, until it was fulfilled and completed as a shadow of the real and final covenant--the covenant of Christ.

Jer 31.32 indicates as much.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 26, 2025

RandyPNW said:
God's Law can be written on our heart under a new and different covenant than the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was transitory and only "for all your generations" in the sense that it was perennial, from generation to generation, until it was fulfilled and completed as a shadow of the real and final covenant--the covenant of Christ.

Jer 31.32 indicates as much.

God's law is just that God's and God's people keep God's commandments Rev 14:12- His version. Is there ever a time anyone on earth could worship other god's, or vain His holy name, or covet or murder? The only commandment of God's Ten Commandments that people don't want is the 4th commandment, the day we are to spend dedicated to God, the one that God blessed and points us to the God of Creation Exo 20:11 Rev 14:7 and God claimed in His own words as My holy day, the holy day of the Lord thy God. Isa 58:13 and a sign of we are His and a sign of His sanctification Eze 20:12 Eze 20:20 because we can't sanctify ourselves Isa 66:17 So really in the end its a battle of days and who we serve. Whoever we obey is who we serve Rom 6:16 Its really a matter of worship which false worship Jesus relates to one keeping their own laws over obeying God's commandments Mat 15:3-14. Its what it will all come down to in the end which I believe we are close, do we worship the beast, the earthy kingdom and their laws or do we stay faithful to God and obey Him. Rev 14:11-12 There is no commandment to keep Sunday holy. God did not bless Sunday, its merely a tradition of man. Jesus addresses how we are to handle these situations when it comes to the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten Commandments- God's personal Testimony Exo 31:18 who changes not, over following man's traditions.

Many miss the allegory of the Israelites coming out of Egypt which represents being held captive of sin. The wilderness represents trials. Canaan represents heaven. We are in the antitype. Jesus rescuing the Israelites from Egypt as they were captive of sin shows He is our Redeemer, sadly many of the Israelites didn't want to be rescued, they wanted to go back to be captive instead of being free in Christ, many never made it to Canaan due to their disobedience Eze 20:13 Eze 20:21 just as we today face these same choices.

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says:

“Today, if you will hear His voice,
8 Do not harden your hearts as in the rebellion,
In the day of trial in the wilderness,
9 Where your fathers tested Me, tried Me,
And saw My works forty years.
10 Therefore I was angry with that generation,
And said, ‘They always go astray in their heart,
And they have not known My ways.’
11 So I swore in My wrath,
‘They shall not enter My rest.’ ”

Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience

Before Joshua led the Israelites into their rest, the land of Canaan, Moses repeated the Ten Commandments and told them to diligently keep and to teach their children and children's children to keep.

We are faced with the same circumstances. We can either be faithful to God, or go astray with our own laws on what we deem is right or wrong which essentially makes one their own god, trusting in own's own righteousness instead of God's Psa 119:172 Isa 56:1-6 which is everlasting Psa 119:142. Or we can trust what Jesus taught and how He lived and abide in Him and follow His example John 15:4-10 1 John 2:6

We need to follow the Lamb! This is the faith that reconciles us and if we are connected to Him John 15:5-10 we would be keeping the same commandments Jesus kept and taught John 15:10 1 John 2:6 The same ones He personally wrote and personally spoke that is inside the ark that all man will be Judged by James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Rev 22:14-15 why its revealed in Heaven at the last trumpet Rev 11:19

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 26, 2025

The Liturgist said:
No it doesn’t - that the saints are alive in Heaven is made extremely clear via the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, and by the appearance of St. Elias and St, Moses at the Transfiguration, and likewise that those at risk of damnation are in a less blessed state is made clear as well.

Likewise, numerous scriptural texts refute annhilationism, but I don’t think we can discuss that in General Theology; if memory serves annhilationism can only be discussed in Controversial Christian Theology.

At any rate I did not see a post by SabbathBlessings on the issue, but if he did make such a post my answer would remain unchanged, since what Scripture says is extremely clear, and we know that the traditional interpretation of Scripture was the interpretation of the early church from surviving Patristic texts.

I will also note that all surviving ancient liturgical texts include prayer for the dead, which is also practiced by the Orthodox, Anglicans, and many denominations in addition to Roman Catholics. However, the Orthodox, Anglicans, and others do not believe in purgatory.

The Bible teaches that at death, we do not go directly to Heaven or hell but enter a sleep-like state, awaiting resurrection. The idea that saints are alive in Heaven and the wicked suffer immediately is based on misunderstandings of certain passages.

The parable of the rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31) is often used to support consciousness after death, but it is a teaching story with symbolic meaning. Parables are not literal events, and this one emphasizes the importance of heeding God’s word rather than describing the afterlife. It contradicts clear biblical teachings that the dead are unconscious (Ecclesiastes 9:5) and that communication between the living and dead does not happen.

The Bible consistently teaches that death is a state of unconsciousness. The dead know nothing (Ecclesiastes 9:5), and Jesus Himself referred to death as sleep (John 11:11-14). The resurrection happens at Jesus’ return, not at the moment of death. "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first" (1 Thessalonians 4:16). If believers were already in Heaven, there would be no need for a resurrection.

Even Jesus, our example, was in the tomb until He was resurrected. If anyone deserved to go straight to Heaven at death, it was Him—but He waited. This confirms the biblical truth that we rest in the grave until the resurrection, when Christ will call His people to eternal life.

There are a few instances in the Old Testament where men were taken up to heaven without experiencing death. Here are the examples from the New King James Version (NKJV):
Enoch – Genesis 5:24: "And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him."
Enoch is one of the most well-known examples. He lived a righteous life, and instead of dying, God took him.

Elijah – 2 Kings 2:11: "Then it happened, as they continued on and talked, that suddenly a chariot of fire appeared with horses of fire, and separated the two of them; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven."
Elijah was taken up to heaven in a whirlwind, a dramatic event witnessed by Elisha.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 26, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Repentence from sin is extremely important. What makes you think I am rejecting that?

As for “magnifying the commandments”, Christ our true God explained what the commandments actually meant, by summarizing them into two simpler commandments, the performance of which is sufficient, namely, that we love God with all our heart, mind and soul and love our neighbour as ourselves.

By the way, I keep the Sabbath, atlhough SDA members disagree with me on what keeping the sabbath entails. I believe the Sabbath is kept through the Orthodox Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday, which commemorates the rest of Christ our True God in the tomb after recreating humanity in His image on the Holy and Life Giving Cross, as He had rested after creating us in Genesis.

Jesus named the commandments individually , He was teaching them , Like I said before the summarized commandments were to show they are based on LOVE

The problem replacing the ten commandment ( the Covenant) by a summary is that people forget important things in the first four commandments, as an example they forget to follow the sabbath as God ordained. Yes it is part pf the covenant it is a sign between Men and GOD that we Love Him and do His Will and not our own will, This is most important! it is a test of Obedience.

Nowhere in the bible is it written that the sabbath COMMAND is on Sunday. Obedience is an important and recurrent concept in the bible see post about obedience that i wrote a while ago for more info;

The Theology of Obedience from Genesis to Revelation

The Theology of Obedience from Genesis to Revelation Obedience to God is a central theme throughout Scripture, shaping the relationship between humanity and its Creator from Genesis to Revelation. It is not merely a set of rules but the foundation of trust, love, and divine purpose. The perfect...

www.christianforums.com

Jesus said clearly in John 14:15:

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." (NKJV)

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
Nowhere in the bible is it written that the sabbath COMMAND is on Sunday. Obedience is an important and recurrent concept in the bible see post about obedience that i wrote a while ago for more info;

The Theology of Obedience from Genesis to Revelation

The Theology of Obedience from Genesis to Revelation Obedience to God is a central theme throughout Scripture, shaping the relationship between humanity and its Creator from Genesis to Revelation. It is not merely a set of rules but the foundation of trust, love, and divine purpose. The perfect...

www.christianforums.com

I made no claim that it is.

Rather, I believe that the Sabbath command is fulfilled by attending the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, if possible, the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday, or by remembering, if that is not possible, the repose of Christ in the tomb on Holy Saturday, and by reverently observing that day, when Christ the creator of all things was contained in a tomb.

The nature of Sabbath is also such that we commemorate our deceased loved ones on that day, since it makes sense that since Christ our True God rested in a tomb on the Sabbath, that we should on the same day pray for those of us who have departed. Sabbath is also one of two days per week dedicated to the veneration of the Mother of God.

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
The Bible teaches that at death, we do not go directly to Heaven or hell but enter a sleep-like state, awaiting resurrection.

That’s incorrect. The verses you supply do not negate other verses which contradict the doctrine of soul sleep, which is why the early church did not believe in soul sleep and why the concept was unknown until the 19th century.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 26, 2025

RandyPNW said:
God's Law can be written on our heart under a new and different covenant than the Law of Moses. The Law of Moses was transitory and only "for all your generations" in the sense that it was perennial, from generation to generation, until it was fulfilled and completed as a shadow of the real and final covenant--the covenant of Christ.

Jer 31.32 indicates as much.

what Jeremiah 31: 32 states is that they broke the covenant;

Jer 31:32 It will not be like the covenant I made with their fathers when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt— a covenant they broke, though I was a husband to them,” declares the LORD.

The Covenant are the 10 commandments;

In Exodus 34:28, it is written:
"So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments."

"So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments; and He wrote them on two tablets of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13, NKJV)

The Ten Commandments being the Covenant confirmed also elsewhere in Deuteronomy:

Deu 9:9 When I went up on the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the LORD made with you, I stayed on the mountain forty days and forty nights. I ate no bread and drank no water.

Deu 9:11 And at the end of forty days and forty nights, the LORD gave me the two stone tablets, the tablets of the covenant.

Deu 9:15 So I went back down the mountain while it was blazing with fire, with the two tablets of the covenant in my hands.

the covenant old and New are the same commandments but for the new put in out hearts.

the covenant is not the same as the rest of the law given by Moses I explain this in post no 1 of this thread.

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

By the way @JesusFollowerForever it would be of great benefit to move this thread to Sabbath and the Law, given the subject matter, since we seem to be leaning in that direction rather than in the realm of General Theology.

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

trophy33 said:
I do not agree that the Old Testament is an essential part of the Gospel message, but I agree that the Old Testaments gets cleared or understood through Christ and through Christianity.

It is essential because it contains the prophecies of Christ, that describe who He is and what He was sent to do, which is to bring salvation to us.

Also, the early church used, and the traditional churches such as the Oriental Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Anglicans, Assyrians, Lutherans, Roman Catholics, and a great many Reformed churches, the Psalter (the Psalms) as their main hymnal, in the case of some Reformed churches, as their only hymnal (based on a misinterpretation of St. Paul urging the congregation to sing “Psalms, hymns and scriptural songs” as meaning singing Psalms only, and not the other songs that appear in Scripture, or hymns composed by Christians such as the Trisagion, the Agnus Dei, the Te Deum Laudamus, etc. In the case of the Orthodox church, although we have Psalm 151 in our Psalter, our main hymns are the 150 Psalms which are divided into 20 kathisma (sittings) each of which consists of three stases (standings), that is to say, a group concluded with the Trinitarian doxology, with Psalm 118 due to its size divided into multiple kathisma. Additionally eight of the eleven canticles used in the Eastern Orthodox liturgy are from the Old Testament, such as the Song of Habbakuk and Benedicite Omni Opera.

These hymns convey essential truths about the Gospel, and for this reason Christians have been singing them since the first century, we know from St. Paul, as an uncontroversial fact.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 26, 2025

The Liturgist said:
I made no claim that it is.

Rather, I believe that the Sabbath command is fulfilled by attending the Orthodox Divine Liturgy, if possible, the Vesperal Divine Liturgy on Holy Saturday, or by remembering, if that is not possible, the repose of Christ in the tomb on Holy Saturday, and by reverently observing that day, when Christ the creator of all things was contained in a tomb.

The nature of Sabbath is also such that we commemorate our deceased loved ones on that day, since it makes sense that since Christ our True God rested in a tomb on the Sabbath, that we should on the same day pray for those of us who have departed. Sabbath is also one of two days per week dedicated to the veneration of the Mother of God.

Luk 6:46 Why do you call Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ but not do what I say?

Luk 6:47 I will show you what he is like who comes to Me and hears My words and acts on them:

Luk 6:48 He is like a man building a house, who dug down deep and laid his foundation on the rock. When the flood came, the torrent crashed against that house but could not shake it, because it was well built.

We all should follow what GOD ordained and Not the changes made by Men. Jesus rebuked the pharisees the these reasons, they change the meaning of the laws and did not apply them with compassion and love or obedience.

I do not know much about the Orthodox Liturgy you mention but I will have a look. Observing the sabbath is important but not like the pharisees of the bible. In Isaiah, there is an easy guideline;

Isaiah 58:13-14:
13. If you turn your foot from breaking the Sabbath, from doing as you please on My holy day, if you call the Sabbath a delight, and the LORD’s holy day honorable, if you honor it by not going your own way or seeking your own pleasure or speaking idle words,

14. then you will delight yourself in the LORD, and I will make you ride on the heights of the land and feed you with the heritage of your father Jacob.” For the mouth of the LORD has spoken.

very simple! plus a blessing from the Lord

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

B Griffin said:
But what seems unrealistic to me is the idea that before our physical deaths we can achieve such a state of "cooperation with God" that it resuts in us never committing any more sins after that point.

It is possible but extremely rare, historically, the exception being martyrs, since once one has confessed Jesus Christ and is about to be executed, unless one then denies Christ in an effort to avoid execution, it seems unlikely that anything one could do in that moment would be accounted as sinful; Christ has promised us that those who confess Him before men, He will confess before the Father. Because the red martyrdom as the Celtic Christians called it (which they contrasted with the White Martyrdom of Matrimony, or the Green martyrdom of monasticism, which is an appropriate use of colors, since the ancient churches in their vestments and liturgies use red to symbolize martyrdom and green to symbolize new life, and white to symbolize Holy Matrimony since it is an iconographic analog of the marriage of Christ to His Bride the Church) guarantees salvation, martyrs are automatically glorified as saints in the Orthodox Church, as are confessors, that is to say, those known to have been tortured for their faith, who did not cease to confess it despite the torture.

Outside of those cases, it is rare to find someone who had reached such a level of progress that they had conquered the passions completely in this life, and even rarer to find someone who had managed to reach a level of holiness where God saw fit to deliver them up into Heaven bodily. St. Elijah and the Theotokos are the only two definite examples the Orthodox are aware of, with St. Enoch and St. Moses also probably having been assumed, and these assumptions were, except in the case of St. Elijah, post-mortem.

JesusFollowerForever · Mar 26, 2025

The Liturgist said:
By the way @JesusFollowerForever it would be of great benefit to move this thread to Sabbath and the Law, given the subject matter, since we seem to be leaning in that direction rather than in the realm of General Theology.

The sabbath is part of the Covenant as defined by The Ten commandments, without going at length on the subject of the sabbath it is important to mention but I will not pursue further here I have simply made the connection that the sabbath is part of the covenant and will never change, this will displease many but it is what GOD ordained. Our will ls not Important but Doing the will of GOD is.

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
We all should follow what GOD ordained and Not the changes made by Men.

I agree. For this reason I am a member of a traditional liturgical together with my Orthodox friends such as @prodromos @jas3 @Tigran1245 and our Lutheran friends such as @MarkRohfrietsch and @Ain't Zwinglian and @ViaCrucis and of our traditional Roman Catholic friends such as @chevyontheriver and @Michie and of our traditional Anglican friends such as @Jipsah.

The early church was a liturgical church which was very different from the Restorationist churches of the 19th century, or for that matter the low church Puritans and Anabaptists of the Radical Reformation in the 16th and 17th century. The most authentic Christian experiences are those based in the ancient liturgies, which one can experience in places as diverse as the persecuted Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox churches in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Armenia, Egypt and Ethiopia, and the persecuted Anglican and Catholic churches in Pakistan and other Muslim countries, and in the communist-controlled countries. One can also enjoy those liturgies with the blessing of religious liberty that exists in the US.

The Liturgist · Mar 26, 2025

JesusFollowerForever said:
The sabbath is part of the Covenant as defined by The Ten commandments, without going at length on the subject of the sabbath it is important to mention but I will not pursue further here I have simply made the connection that the sabbath is part of the covenant and will never change, this will displease many but it is what GOD ordained. Our will ls not Important but Doing the will of GOD is.

I would not dispute the Sabbath is an important part of the covenant, in that Jesus Christ died for our sins on the cross and reposed in a tomb on the Sabbath before rising again in glory on the first day. Let there be light.

I simply disagree with the SDA’s opinion of how I should celebrate the Sabbath, since many Christians including myself are of the belief that SDA doctrine is not indicated by the plain meaning of the New Testament text and the manner in which that text was interpreted by the Early Church.

One thing I have noticed is that Adventists sometimes seem surprised when other Christians do not agree with their doctrine as being the obvious interpretation, but that is the case.

SabbathBlessings · Mar 26, 2025

The Sabbath is a commandment of God Exo 20:8-11, written and spoken by the Highest Authority of all, God Exo 31:18 not a commandment of the SDA church. God said to keep the Sabbath day holy Exo 20:8 by ceasing all our works and labors and focusing on God Isa 58:13. The Sabbath is a holy convocation i Lev 23:3 .e. holly gathering one that will never end according to thus saith the Lord Isa 66:23 which is why the true early church of the disciples kept it in the same manner as Jesus Luke 4:6 Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 as Jesus has all Authority Mat 28:18, not someone who deems their church above God’s spoken and written Word. Never abrogated by God, the church after the Bible did so and they admit they did it on their own authority over God’s. It’s a matter of faith and who we serve. Rom 6:16 Mat 15:3-14

The Ten Commandments are the Covenant, did you know?

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