The Telephone Game

[Strong in Him]

"Luke doesn't know anyone named Cephas, but calls Paul's Cephas of Galatians 2:9, the name Peter, in Acts 15:7... while Act's James calls Luke's Peter the name Simeon, in Acts 15:14."

No; Luke doesn't call Peter by the name Cephas. It doesn't mean, or say, that he did not know anyone of that name.
It seems that Andrew's brother was called Simon and later given the name Peter. He is sometimes referred to as Simon Peter, maybe to avoid confusion.
James was Jewish/writing for Jews and Simeon seems to be the Jewish name from which we get Simon.

 

[Ceallaigh]

There is only ONE Gospel.
Jesus said that he had come to die for sinners - so did Paul.
Jesus said that he was the only way to the Father - so did Paul, and Peter.
Jesus said that unless you are born again you cannot enter the Kingdom of God - Paul said that it is only the Spirit who makes us sons of God.
Jesus said that he gives eternal life - so did Paul.

What do you mean by "Gospel of the Kingdom"?

Apparently the "Gospel of the Kingdom" is what was written by the twelve apostles at Jesus' side during his entire ministry. So the Gospel of the Kingdom is contained only in: the gospel according to Matthew; the gospel according to Peter (falsely attributed to Mark); The gospel according to John; 1 Peter; 1,2,3 John and Revelation.

 

[Strong in Him]

Apparently the "Gospel of the Kingdom" is what was written by the twelve apostles at Jesus' side during his entire ministry. So the Gospel of the Kingdom is contained only in: the gospel according to Matthew; the gospel according to Peter (falsely attributed to Mark); The gospel according to John; 1 Peter; 1,2,3 John and Revelation.

Ok.

So those who hold this view don't see the Bible as inspired, then? Luke's Gospel, Acts and Paul's epistles shouldn't be in it?

 

[Ceallaigh]

Ok.

So those who hold this view don't see the Bible as inspired, then? Luke's Gospel, Acts and Paul's epistles shouldn't be in it?

Apparently yes. And based on Bible verses being used, those who follow the other gospel are the synagogue of satan and so on. Many are called few are chosen. Put directly as I interpret it, only those who follow the Gospel of the Kingdom theology are saved. I haven't tracked down where it originates from yet. I've had to go into detective mode to sort it out. I'm not finished processing it yet.

 

[Vap841]

Basically the claim is that anything written by anyone who wasn't at Jesus' side during his entire ministry, is secondhand hearsay and therefore false gospel.

So this is the true Gospel:

Gospel According to Matthew
Gospel According to Peter (falsely attributed to Mark)
Gospel According to John
First letter of Peter
Letters of John
Revelation to John

And this is the false gospel:

Gospel According to Luke
Acts of the Apostles
Letter of Paul to the Romans
Letters of Paul to the Corinthians
Letter of Paul to the Galatians
Letter of Paul to the Ephesians
Letter of Paul to the Philippians
Letter of Paul to the Colossians
Letters of Paul to the Thessalonians
Letters of Paul to Timothy
Letter of Paul to Titus
Letter of Paul to Philemon
Letter to the Hebrews
Letter of James
Second letter of Peter
Letter of Jude

And who came up with this standard, and what arguments do you offer for this not to be a special pleading fallacy for the standards of how historical credibility is established? Why should we all the sudden invalidate historians who interviewed eye witnesses as opposed to being eye witnesses?

 

[Ceallaigh]

And who came up with this standard, and what arguments do you offer for this not to be a special pleading fallacy for the standards of how historical credibility is established? Why should we all the sudden invalidate historians who interviewed eye witnesses as opposed to being eye witnesses?

You'll have to ask the OP those questions. I don't hold to it myself.

 

[Vap841]

You'll have to ask the OP those questions. I don't hold to it myself.

Lol oh it looked like you were arguing with Strong in Him my mistake. It kills me how some Christians will try to entice people to find the truth via reasoning through one corner of their mouth, but then tell people to abandon forms of reasoning through the other corner of their mouth. “Historicity can lead us to the truth of Jesus”…”But oh by the way throw away the rules of historicity in favor of my subjective gut feelings in order to find the truth of Jesus”

 

[Hammster]

You don't really pay much attention to what I say, do you? It's like you're just phoning it in.

I'm all about free-will (it's right under my screen name... see it?). This means I am personally responsible for my own choices and the consequences thereof.
If I were to trust someone random human to say what is or isn't valid, I would be putting my fate in their hands. That doesn't work for me. Because they won't be going to hell for me if they're wrong.

Then why exactly did you start this thread?

 

[Ceallaigh]

You don't really pay much attention to what I say, do you? It's like you're just phoning it in.

I'm all about free-will (it's right under my screen name... see it?). This means I am personally responsible for my own choices and the consequences thereof.
If I were to trust someone random human to say what is or isn't valid, I would be putting my fate in their hands. That doesn't work for me. Because they won't be going to hell for me if they're wrong.

I'm perfectly fully aware you're all for free will to not only follow the "Gospel of the Kingdom". You've also made it clear what you say the Bible says about Christians who don't, such as:

Ligurian said: ↑

Matthew 22:1-14 many are called, but few are chosen.KJV

Revelation 2:12-17 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:18-29 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Revelation 3:1-6 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead.KJV

 

[Ligurian]

So we have on the one hand teachings done in front of multitudes, and in other instances we have a rabbi who teaches his disciples often. How would a teacher student relationship be anything at all like the telephone game?

Because Jesus' Disciples isn't where the circle ends. Step three is those who heard the message from the Disciples...

 

[Strong in Him]

Because Jesus' Disciples isn't where the circle ends. Step three is those who heard the Disciples and may not have repeated it correctly. Step four might be those who didn't understand the message at all. Step five might even have added or subtracted from the message to fit what others had said. Step six might never have heard any part of the original message.

This appears to be based on "may haves", "might be", "might have" - nothing concrete.
In Bible times, and Jesus' day, people committed things to memory; look in the OT, "teach these things to your children". Stories/memories of Jesus would have been circulating after the crucifixion. There would have been a lot of people who had heard Jesus' teachings first hand - and if they got any of them wrong, the disciples were more than capable of correcting them.

The books of the Bible that made up the NT were those which were considered by the church to be written by the Apostles, written on behalf of the Apostles (written by a servant/disciple when the Apostles were present), or to be faithful to, and in line with, Apostolic preaching. There were a number of books that didn't make it into the NT - and apparently James nearly didn't.

 

[Ligurian]

Similar verse selections as well. The problem with all the fringe groups or individuals who have isolated themselves as being the only true disciples, and deemed the rest of Christianity as being the synagogue of satan, is there can be only one who's right. Or put another way, they all cancel each other out to where there's virtually no one left, which would mean that perhaps except for a small spark, Christianity is dead.

Matthew 22:1-14 many are called, but few are chosen.KJV

Revelation 2:12-17 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:18-29 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Revelation 3:1-6 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead.KJV

(This is the Gospel of the Kingdom.)

I'm perfectly fully aware you're all for free will to not only follow the "Gospel of the Kingdom". You've also made it clear what you say the Bible says about Christians who don't, such as:

Ligurian said: ↑

Matthew 22:1-14 many are called, but few are chosen.KJV

Revelation 2:12-17 So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate. Revelation 2:18-29 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce My servants to commit fornication and to eat things sacrificed unto idols. Revelation 3:1-6 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write: These things saith He that hath the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest and art dead.KJV

= What you say, "about what say the Bible says about Christians who don't [follow the Gospel of the Kingdom]."

Perfect example of The Telephone Game gone awry. Thank you.

 

[Ligurian]

Because Jesus' Disciples isn't where the circle ends. Step three is those who heard the message from the Disciples.

This appears to be based on "may haves", "might be", "might have" - nothing concrete.

There, fixed it.

 

[Ligurian]

Lol oh it looked like you were arguing with Strong in Him my mistake. It kills me how some Christians will try to entice people to find the truth via reasoning through one corner of their mouth, but then tell people to abandon forms of reasoning through the other corner of their mouth. “Historicity can lead us to the truth of Jesus”…”But oh by the way throw away the rules of historicity in favor of my subjective gut feelings in order to find the truth of Jesus”

History is a set of lies agreed upon...
History is a book sealed with seven seals...
History is like archaeology, where they went to find the Hittites, found their site, and slapped the Hittite label on the top-layer... the conquerers of the Hittites.

 

[Ligurian]

And who came up with this standard, and what arguments do you offer for this not to be a special pleading fallacy for the standards of how historical credibility is established? Why should we all the sudden invalidate historians who interviewed eye witnesses as opposed to being eye witnesses?

There is no "we" in this. Luke is Paul's fellow-traveler, and so is John-Mark. They went to the gentiles, not to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel. So Luke's eye-witnesses could have been any one of the multitudes.

 

[Ligurian]

Apparently yes. And based on Bible verses being used, those who follow the other gospel are the synagogue of satan and so on. Many are called few are chosen. Put directly as I interpret it, only those who follow the Gospel of the Kingdom theology are saved. I haven't tracked down where it originates from yet. I've had to go into detective mode to sort it out. I'm not finished processing it yet.

Another perfect example of how and why The Telephone Game goes awry. Some guy forgets that he's actually following the Pauline Theology, where anathemas are called down up anyone who follows... what turns out to be the Kingdom Gospel, being taught by 1 Peter 1:1... in Galatia. Pretty soon everyone forgets that the Philippians were calling the circumcision dogs... having long forgotten Galatians 2:7-9... if they ever remembered seeing it at all.

And someone also forgot that he called the few an unorthodox fringe.

 

[Strong in Him]

There, fixed it.

You didn't "fix it ", you just removed words from your post.

You said that people might have forgotten, or not understood, the Gospel or Jesus' teaching, with no evidence to back it up.

 

[Ligurian]

Apparently the "Gospel of the Kingdom" is what was written by the twelve apostles at Jesus' side during his entire ministry. So the Gospel of the Kingdom is contained only in: the gospel according to Matthew; the gospel according to Peter (falsely attributed to Mark); The gospel according to John; 1 Peter; 1,2,3 John and Revelation.

Thanks to MMXX for bringing this up.

I no longer think that the gospel of Mark belongs to Peter.
I repent: I've changed my mind.

Where did I say I believe that the Peter and John epistles are the Gospel of the Kingdom? If they exist, then I need to drag those thread up to the top and openly repent of those as bits well.

Because, right now, today... this is what I believe:

If you were really interested, you'd find it out for yourself... the aha moment: priceless.

If I were truly alone in thinking that Matthew and John and the Revelation are the Gospel of the Kingdom for the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel... (Matthew 10:5-7, Matthew 15:24)...
As it is, I am content in this little world.

 

[Strong in Him]

Why would you need to repent for believing something which scholars, and early church fathers, said is true?
It's not a sin to read, and trust, the experts.

 

[Ligurian]

Ok.

So those who hold this view don't see the Bible as inspired, then? Luke's Gospel, Acts and Paul's epistles shouldn't be in it?

To keep myself from being even-more character-assassinated... let me answer this question as it applies to me, from my opinion.

There are two Gospels.
The 1st Gospel is given to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel of the Divided Kingdom, Matthew 10:5-7, Matthew 15:24.

The 2nd Gospel is given to the Gentiles and the House of Judah of the Divided Kingdom, Romans 10:12, Galatians 3:28.