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The sun stood still

dad

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Nathan Poe said:
1200 miles per hour is hardly "slowly" in human terms.
But how much change in how fast earth goes was required -here is the question. The world would have, I thought still went around, but just twisted a bit to face the light longer?


Except you're dealing with something infintesimally smaller than a bug, and something much larger and faster than a magnet on a table. You need to think more in terms of a bug on a windshield of a speeding car.
Now what is smaller than a bug here, again? And what is coming out of the blue to smack it like a windshield?



Which brings us back to the issue of the kinds of "required forces" to move a planet, particularly one that's already in motion at breakneck speed.
Right, and this is what you would need to address, should you be able.




There would be worldwide records of it had it actually happened. If the sun's not setting in one place, that means it's not rising somewhere else.

Don't you think someone would've noticed?
Well, I had heard there was no records of it, but one poster here gave a link, I think, and showed how they say there are actually records of the missing day. Did you miss that? Post 25
 
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Mystman

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dad said:
Well, I had heard there was no records of it, but one poster here gave a link, I think, and showed how they say there are actually records of the missing day. Did you miss that? Post 25

..

Something tells me the egyptians would've made notice of an extremely long day. You know, these guys:
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/astronomy.html

Second: mind explaining exactly how you see this happening? All I've heard is "gentle movements that make the earth face the sun longer". Please give an exact model. How many degrees tilt, how much de-acceleration, etc.
 
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Nathan Poe

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dad said:
But how much change in how fast earth goes was required -here is the question. The world would have, I thought still went around, but just twisted a bit to face the light longer?

And that's where the analogy of the speeding car making the sudden right turn comes into play.


Now what is smaller than a bug here, again? And what is coming out of the blue to smack it like a windshield?

You missed it... again. The bug is already on the windshield (alive, for the moment). The car is doing 120 MPH. Then it makes a quick right turn.

What happens next?



Right, and this is what you would need to address, should you be able.

I don't need to address it, because my theory is that it never happened. Were it not for a barbaric story in the Bible, that'd be your theory as well.



Well, I had heard there was no records of it, but one poster here gave a link, I think, and showed how they say there are actually records of the missing day. Did you miss that? Post 25

Read the site. Found its credibility wanting.
How about you?
 
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Nathan Poe

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Mystman said:
..
Second: mind explaining exactly how you see this happening? All I've heard is "gentle movements that make the earth face the sun longer". Please give an exact model. How many degrees tilt, how much de-acceleration, etc.


One problem at a time: let's address how you can shift the Earth's rotation without causing catastrophic geological and climatological problems.
 
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Mystman

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Nathan Poe said:
One problem at a time: let's address how you can shift the Earth's rotation without causing catastrophic geological and climatological problems.

Actually, as long as he can just say "but what if it's so gentle!", we can never say "uhmz.. with your level of "gentleness", humanity would be wiped out anyway".

He needs to define how 'gently' his alteration in the rotation is, before we can say what the consequences are.

(That the consequences are going to be less than pleasant is a certainty ;))
 
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dad

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Mystman said:
..

Something tells me the egyptians would've made notice of an extremely long day. You know, these guys:
http://www.mnsu.edu/emuseum/prehistory/egypt/dailylife/astronomy.html
From your link "The Ancient Egyptians had a limited knowledge of astronomy. "
"Ancient Egyptians also used astronomy in their calendars. There life revolved the annual flooding of the Nile. This resulted in three seasons, the flooding, the subsistence of the river, and harvesting"
So where does exact records of daylight for every day for hundreds of years fit in to this?

Second: mind explaining exactly how you see this happening? All I've heard is "gentle movements that make the earth face the sun longer". Please give an exact model. How many degrees tilt, how much de-acceleration, etc.
If it was the earth that was locally affected, it would have had to face the sun longer. The normal courses would have to be altered, through outside forces. What if, over the course of the day, say, the axis of the earth changed say, 23 or so degrees? Hey, if this happened, we have to start somewhere. So, what about a 23 degree axis tilt in a day? The effect being to gradually tilt the earth more, so it keeps facing the sun longer, in what normally would have been night time! I just took a little cd, with a pen through it's center, revolved it around something, and came up with this estimate, so, lets not make it sound like this as some 'must be true here or the bible account of the battle is no good thing'.
 
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dad

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Mystman

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dad said:
From your link "The Ancient Egyptians had a limited knowledge of astronomy. "
"Ancient Egyptians also used astronomy in their calendars. There life revolved the annual flooding of the Nile. This resulted in three seasons, the flooding, the subsistence of the river, and harvesting"
So where does exact records of daylight for every day for hundreds of years fit in to this?
Limited compared to us, duh. But here we have a people, that can tell the time by use of stars. These are people who can very precisely locate the north by use of stars. And you think they wouldn't take note of a day that takes twice as long as normal?

dad said:
If it was the earth that was locally affected, it would have had to face the sun longer. The normal courses would have to be altered, through outside forces. What if, over the course of the day, say, the axis of the earth changed say, 23 or so degrees? Hey, if this happened, we have to start somewhere. So, what about a 23 degree axis tilt in a day? The effect being to gradually tilt the earth more, so it keeps facing the sun longer, in what normally would have been night time! I just took a little cd, with a pen through it's center, revolved it around something, and came up with this estimate, so, lets not make it sound like this as some 'must be true here or the bible account of the battle is no good thing'.

And how much longer would the day be due to that 23 degree tilt? Calculations please :)
 
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dad

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Mystman said:
[/color]Limited compared to us, duh. But here we have a people, that can tell the time by use of stars. These are people who can very precisely locate the north by use of stars. And you think they wouldn't take note of a day that takes twice as long as normal?
Well, apparently so! These dudes also wouldn't ley God's people go, and had to get clobbered! What kind of people do you think God needs to clobber?



And how much longer would the day be due to that 23 degree tilt? Calculations please :)
Well, my degrees may be off, but the day was somewhere close to 12 hours longer, as I recall. What have you to say about this, in your calculations?
 
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Nathan Poe

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dad said:
Yes, it seems that way. http://www.blueletterbible.org/faq/nbi/625.html This one was better, and still has accounts of other cultures noticing something.

True, but it doesn't halp the Biblical case.

The Site said:
Herodotus, an ancient historian, recounts that while in Egypt, priest showed him their temple records, and that he read of a day which was twice the natural length of any day that had ever been recorded (Robert Boyd, Boyds Bible Handbook, pp. 122,123).

This, however, does not seem to be the case.

The record of the long day has been much debated. Parallels have been found in Chinese, Egyptian and Mexican stories, but these will not coincide with the date or time of day (E.W. Maunder, JTVI, 1921, pp. 120-148); and an astronomical aberration would not have gone unrecorded in Babylon (John Lilley, The New Laymans Bible Commentary, G.C.D. Howley, F.F. Bruce, H.L. Ellison, eds., Grand Rapids, Michigan: Zondervan, 1979, pp. 320,321).

(emphasis mine) As you can see, noticing "something" isn't enough.

Furthermore, tell me if this argument sounds familiar:

The Site said:
Many have held that the earth actually stopped rotating for about twenty-four hours. From the peoples vantage point the sun would have appeared to have stopped. Though this would give Joshua the time to win the battle, it would also cause terrible catastrophes on the planet. Those who believe in the power of God realize that He could have prevented these catastrophes from occurring.

Now, granted that a God who can stop a planet's rotation can also prevent the natual consequences of doing so, but at this point, we're just throwing up our hands in futility and saying "Goddidit." How He did so becomes a pointless discussion.
 
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Caphi

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Well, apparently so! These dudes also wouldn't ley God's people go, and had to get clobbered! What kind of people do you think God needs to clobber?

Making ad hominem attacks against ancient cultures, dad? You truly have stooped quite low. The point which Mystman is trying to make is that the Egyptian, for all their management faults and cruelties, would certainly have recorded an extra-long day. The ancient Chinese were even better at astronomy, and they never recorded a long night either.

Well, my degrees may be off, but the day was somewhere close to 12 hours longer, as I recall. What have you to say about this, in your calculations?

Twelve hours? That's a 50% increase. The Egyptions, Greeks, Sumerians, Chinese, and any number of civilizations which were (relatively) highly developed would have made a record, even if, by some fluke or supernatural act, Earth would have made it through safely. The only record is in the Bible. You can't seriously tell me that you think the Bible is superior to the specific records of many developed civilizations all over the world.
 
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Nathan Poe

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dad said:
Well, apparently so! These dudes also wouldn't ley God's people go, and had to get clobbered! What kind of people do you think God needs to clobber?

Except that God didn't do any of the clobbering this time, now did he? According to the myth, God merely slowed time so that Joshua could fulfill his boast and kill more people in a single day. And God, being every bit as bloodthirsty as the writers wanted Him to be, complied.

A modern equivalent would be Osama Bin Laden asking Allah to stretch out 9/11/2001 so that he could hijack a few more planes. Who's doing the clobbering?



Well, my degrees may be off,

among other things.

but the day was somewhere close to 12 hours longer, as I recall.

As you recall??? You were there?

What have you to say about this, in your calculations?

Our calculations? You're the one who insists that it actually happened, remember?
 
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Mystman

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dad said:
Well, apparently so! These dudes also wouldn't ley God's people go, and had to get clobbered! What kind of people do you think God needs to clobber?
Oh yeah, the same people who wrote insane amounts of text on various objects, but never mentioned the seven plagues or an entire nation of slaves fleeing. Forget I asked.

dad said:
Well, my degrees may be off, but the day was somewhere close to 12 hours longer, as I recall. What have you to say about this, in your calculations?

My calculations haven't been made. I asked yours. You make weird statements: you back them up.
 
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dad

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Mystman said:
[/color]Limited compared to us, duh. But here we have a people, that can tell the time by use of stars. These are people who can very precisely locate the north by use of stars. And you think they wouldn't take note of a day that takes twice as long as normal?
Well, the day was longer, and you say they apparently missed it, so what could one think? Maybe the river was flooded, and they were too busy to write it down, or the papers got wet or washed away!? Maybe the guy in charge of it was so freaked out, he had a heart attack?! Who knows. Maybe Pharoah died theat day, and they thought the gods were responding? Ha. Their lack of recording a known event only has so much currency.



And how much longer would the day be due to that 23 degree tilt? Calculations please :)
Well, whatever the tilt, the result would be the extra daylight, what was it, almost 12 hrs or so? How much would it need to change?
 
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Mystman

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dad said:
Well, the day was longer, and you say they apparently missed it, so what could one think? Maybe the river was flooded, and they were too busy to write it down, or the papers got wet or washed away!? Maybe the guy in charge of it was so freaked out, he had a heart attack?! Who knows. Maybe Pharoah died theat day, and they thought the gods were responding? Ha. Their lack of recording a known event only has so much currency.

Well, whatever the tilt, the result would be the extra daylight, what was it, almost 12 hrs or so? How much would it need to change?

While it's cute you replied to the same post twice (I feel so special :holy:), you still haven't given any calculations.
 
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dad

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Mystman said:
Oh yeah, the same people who wrote insane amounts of text on various objects, but never mentioned the seven plagues or an entire nation of slaves fleeing. Forget I asked.
That would be in keeping it seems with those folks. Would you pull down your pants, or shirt, and show the world, if you just got spanked? I don't think they were proud of it. No wonder they made it go away.



My calculations haven't been made. I asked yours. You make weird statements: you back them up.
Look, it's simple, if the idea that the miracle was earth localized, and not involving the sun, seems to me it must have been tilted to get more light, whatever would give the extra daylight. Doesn't matter much whether it was 60 degrees or 12 degrees, the question is would this harm the earth in the tilting? If so, we would have to rule that one out.
 
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Mystman

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dad said:
Look, it's simple, if the idea that the miracle was earth localized, and not involving the sun, seems to me it must have been tilted to get more light, whatever would give the extra daylight. Doesn't matter much whether it was 60 degrees or 12 degrees, the question is would this harm the earth in the tilting? If so, we would have to rule that one out.

OFCOURSE it matters. Question: have you EVER in your entire life learned something about newtonian physics?

A 0.01 degree tilt, that gradually comes to be after a full day, would probably be fine.
A 90 degree tilt, that comes to be in 2 seconds, would rip the planet apart.

I'm asking for exact numbers because only with exact numbers you can make exact calculations about the impact.

More tilt in less time = less pleasant.

So I'm asking you quite nicely, what kind of movement of the earth would be necesarry to gain 12 hours of daylight. As soon as you figure out your favorite type of movement, I'll then be so nice to give the report on the destructiveness of the movement. (hint: it'll probably involve people being flinged of the planet)
 
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Mystman

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The Mystman version of 12 hour calculations!

"the sun stood still"

well, that tells it all, doesn't it?

Did somebody say 9736×10^24 kg object with a 465 m/s rotational velocity at the equator making a full stop?

Most humorous result: Poor little Joshua will shoot across the face of the earth at 465 m/s, gently slow down by friction with the ground, probably slam right through a bunch of trees on the way, and end as puddle of bloody pulp.

Yay for divine intervention!
 
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Nathan Poe

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Mystman said:
Most humorous result: Poor little Joshua will shoot across the face of the earth at 465 m/s, gently slow down by friction with the ground, probably slam right through a bunch of trees on the way, and end as puddle of bloody pulp.

Yay for divine intervention!

Better still: Joshua flies into the enemy army at 465 m/s, and wipes them out like so many bowling pins!

The Bible is therefore true.... if Joshua doesn't leave a 7-10 split...
 
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dad

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Mystman said:
So I'm asking you quite nicely, what kind of movement of the earth would be necesarry to gain 12 hours of daylight. As soon as you figure out your favorite type of movement, I'll then be so nice to give the report on the destructiveness of the movement. (hint: it'll probably involve people being flinged of the planet)
How about if the axis tilted about 12 degrees in 14 hours, combined with a slowing of the rotation for 8 hours in the order about 25 %? Got to give you something to play with here.
If that turns out to be a little too jolting, we could simply look at slowing down time itself locally perhaps? So there we would have to look at the rotation, and axis remaining the same, but it simply taking longer (more time) to do it. Do you know exactly what time is?
This I think we do know, time will be no more in the coming new world. How could we have a localized time warping affecting earth? A warping that did not affect men in any noticeable way, in the course of a days events. Kind of like slowing down the clock in our solar system. Hey, there are only so many alternatives here.
 
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