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The sun stood still

FSTDT

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dad said:
Well, thats all Jim dandy, but can you tell us why, exactly this is a 'concensus'?
By "consensus", I mean the opinions of mainstream Creation Scientists - represented by the AnswersInGenesis organization - that the 'tilted-axis' argument is essentially false or too speculative to merit defending.

dad said:
No observable reason, perhaps. But what reason is ther to say there was not? I guess then the answer is none? If the axis changing could fit the bill, we must consider it, whether aig, and science can detect a reason or not. The reason would be God fought with men that day. Sorry, aig, I find that a good reason, whether you do or not.
AnswersInGenesis provides scriptural reasons to suppose that the earth axis has remained unchanged. I recommend taking it up AiG if you want to challeng their interpretation. (Obviously, if you are a creationist in the traditional sense of the word, then you cannot believe that there is any science which would prove a contradiction in the bible. The explanation provided in the opening post just might be one of those scientific claims that contradicts scripture.)
 
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TeddyKGB

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dad said:
Actually, the point here is whether this was possible scientifically. Not that it happened, and someone has to prove it.
but...
dad said:
Without a localized spiritual interference, yes. But more than only the physical was at work.- Locally, in the earth.
and...
dad said:
Another piece of cake. These laws locally would have been temporarily superceded
Either you are actually interested in a scientific explanation, or you are content just to attribute everything to miracles.

Make up your mind, then we can have some discussion. Or not.
 
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Blue Elvis With Coupons

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I can't really add anything to this conversation, other than providing a link that has interesting info. It's not from a "Christian" site, and I wouldn't really call it a "Scientific" site either. The article can be found at this link: http://www.halexandria.org/dward233.htm My favorite part, and the one I'd be most interested in learning about is the '20 hours of night' in South America that took place around the same timeframe. The article includes this portion~

halexandria.com said:
In the course of many Science and Religion debates, one of the favorite targets of the scientists is the passage in Joshua 10: 12-13, in which it is concluded that “the sun stood still, and the moon stayed.” Scientists like to point out the mechanical difficulty in this process, for which the religionists have little answer, except to rely on faith and belief. As it turns out, those in favor of the more literal translation of Joshua are probably correct, and the scientists have once again mistook phenomena for which they don’t understand for religious enthusiasm.

The basic concept is contained in the article, "Sun, Stand Thou Still; A Consideration of the Possibility”. Basically, the article relies on biblical and other ancient historical records which describe an occurrence in historical times (circa 1500-1400 B.C.E.) in which the Earth's rotation was apparently halted for a period of approximately twenty hours, after which normal rotation was resumed. The purpose is to consider if such an occurrence is even physically possible, and by implication whether or not the description on the one hand of the Sun and Moon standing still, and on the other hand the Sun not rising after a lengthened night of some twenty hours constitute accurate descriptions of a real event. The combination of supporting historical records and the viability of a physical mechanism to temporarily halt the Earth's rotation strongly suggests that at one point in historical times, the Sun did, indeed, stand still.

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Sun, Stand Thou Still; A Consideration of the Possibility

Dan Sewell Ward

Copyright 1990, 1995 Dan Sewell Ward

One of the more astounding passages in the traditional Bible [King James Version] is that contained in Joshua 10: 12-13:

"Then spake Joshua to the Lord in the day when the Lord delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day."

This account is repeated without substantial modification in later and alternative versions of the Bible. While often viewed as a passage not to be taken literally, there are numerous other ancient historical accounts which describe in essence the same event, and thus lend credence to the accuracy to the Biblical description. More significant to the potential credibility of these observations are the accounts from the early civilizations of Meso America (e.g. from the Annals of Cuaulititlan -- as related by Immanuel Velikovsky [1]) which refer to a day when the sun rose slightly, set again in the east, and then after an extended night rose again. Zecharia Sitchin [2] has addressed this phenomena as well, noting the Andean tradition that during the third year of the reign of Titu Yupanqui Pachacuti II, the fifteenth monarch in Ancient Empire times, there occurred an extended night of some additional 20 hours.
 
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Nathan Poe

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dad said:
Here is something I found on google.
"Donald Patten and his colleagues believe that the planet Mars passed by Earth in an unusually close orbit that caused the Earth to tilt on its axis (1973, pp. 172-198). Viewed from the right geographical location, the Sun actually would hang in the sky longer than normal." http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2189

Now, personally, I never considered mars as what did it, but what about the idea in general?

Such a sudden axial shift would've caused earthquakes and simililar catasrophies all across the planet. Wouldn't the Bible have mentioned those?
 
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Caphi

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Oh, I have an inkling. All I look for now, is to see if any can mount a challenge.

Er... hmm? You have an "inkling", in other words, you have a minor hunch, which you expect everyone to challenge now? Oh wait, everyone did challenge it, you've just made stuff up on the spot so that you could a) pretend to refute anything anyone told you and b) bulk up your "inkling" into a coherent hypothesis (oh wait, it's still not coherent, because there are multiple contradictions in it). These kinds of things aren't even worth challenging.
 
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Gracchus

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dad said:
Would the earth break up if the orbit or axis changed to make a day longer? (In a regular old physical only universe)

Just say it's a miracle, Dad. There is no science to support such a thing. Someone one said that you can't serve two masters. Science can't justify blind belief.

:sigh:
 
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Locrian

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TeddyKGB said:
Either you are actually interested in a scientific explanation, or you are content just to attribute everything to miracles.

Make up your mind, then we can have some discussion. Or not.

Well put. Why would someone come to a science forum asking whether something could happen and then suggest that the responses are wrong because the physics could have just been superceded?

What a waste of time.
 
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Nathan Poe

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dad said:
The OP link seems to be at odds with this view. Would the earth break up if the orbit or axis changed to make a day longer? (In a regular old physical only universe)

The Earth (and everything on it) spins at approximately 1200 miles an hour. You tell me what happens if it suddenly slams on the brakes.
 
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dad

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FSTDT said:
There is no way that could ever be known. And even if the laws were temporarily superceded, then what would be the point in referring to Mars or any physical objects at all if the process was inheritly non-physical?


The source you cited in the opening post says that the earths axis did change - however according to the quote from AiG I cited, the current consensus is that the earths axis has remained unchanged since creation, and that there is no reason to believe otherwise. That basic disagreement is why the quote is relevant.
Well, lets face it, how are they going to know if the axis did or didn't change? Besides, I don't buy everything they believe lock stock and barrel, I just agree that God created everything like He said.
I don't see mars as a plyer here. He could have swung a giant item of just the right size right by here if that was needed, or used a tractor beam for all I care, the thing I wondered was if say, a giant hand gently grabbed earth, and held its face to the sun for longer than usual, turning it gently just the right way as long as needed, would this give us the extra daylight, without a catastrophe?
 
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dad

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Nathan Poe said:
The Earth (and everything on it) spins at approximately 1200 miles an hour. You tell me what happens if it suddenly slams on the brakes.
I wasn't asking what would happen if brakes were slammed on, but if the movement was altered somewhat temporarily, to face the light more.
 
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dad

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TemperateSeaIsland said:
The ancient Chinese had been doing astronomy for thousands of years and never mentioned the Sun stopping in the sky. The Bible account is simply a story.
This is a good point, I have heard before. If the axis did change in the middle east, would it necessarily have the same effect in china? If, for example the effect was less there it may have been less noticed? Besides, do they really have records for each day back to what was it, some 1000 years BC, or whatever? Or do they just have general records, and we assume they should have some record of this?
 
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dad

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TeddyKGB said:
but...

and...

Either you are actually interested in a scientific explanation, or you are content just to attribute everything to miracles.

Make up your mind, then we can have some discussion. Or not.
The qyestion is how much science knows or can know of the extra physical science also loxcally at work in this situation. One cannot limit a discussion to only physical science, or one will get limited results.
 
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dad

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Mystman said:
"God did it" can explain any event.

I can't think of any scientific explainations for the sun standing still.

So yeah.

"God did it" is the awnser then.
Well, it is a stumper, this is true. But if the earth had a change in it's angle to the sun, would not it appear the sun was 'still'?
 
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TeddyKGB

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dad said:
The qyestion is how much science knows or can know of the extra physical science also loxcally at work in this situation. One cannot limit a discussion to only physical science, or one will get limited results.
I am having considerable trouble taking this seriously.

How about you let me know when you are ready to drop the pretense, stop making stuff up purely to cover the fact that you do not have the first clue what you are talking about, and learn something?
 
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dad

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Blue Elvis With Coupons said:
I can't really add anything to this conversation, other than providing a link that has interesting info. It's not from a "Christian" site, and I wouldn't really call it a "Scientific" site either. The article can be found at this link: http://www.halexandria.org/dward233.htm My favorite part, and the one I'd be most interested in learning about is the '20 hours of night' in South America that took place around the same timeframe. The article includes this portion~
Very interesting, I was not aware that there were other accounts of this, which would have made it more difficult, as I would have had to come up with a good one as to how the event was very very localized. Ha. The plot thickens.
 
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