The Sumerian Flood Narrative

Dieselman · Jul 28, 2012

Okay, so an event happens 5,000 years BC that kills all but eight people. The the world repopulates. In 4,500 BC Joe Schmeckle writes down the stories his ancestors handed down to him. In 4,000 BC Ed Heckle writes down the stories his family told him. In 3,500 BC Biff Jeckle write out a tale that had been handed down through his family. In 3,000 BC Dan Beckle writes down the story his ancestors had handed down to him. In 2,500 BC Art Feckle writes down a story his ancestors handed down to him. In 1,000 BC God goes to Fred Farkle and tells him exactly what happened and how.

Now Joe Atheist finds the stories and concludes that Farkle copied Feckle, who copied Beckle, who copied Jeckle, who copied Schmeckle, and it's all a continuation of a myth. Three problems with that. None of these people knew each other. All the versions tell the same story. God verified the story to Farkle. The reason that the story MUST be a myth is that if it happened then the theory of evolution is debunked and we are left to admit that there is a God.

By the way. Moses didn't make up the story. He wrote what God told him to write.

TLK Valentine · Jul 28, 2012

Dieselman said:
Okay, so an event happens 5,000 years BC that kills all but eight people. The the world repopulates. In 4,500 BC Joe Schmeckle writes down the stories his ancestors handed down to him. In 4,000 BC Ed Heckle writes down the stories his family told him. In 3,500 BC Biff Jeckle write out a tale that had been handed down through his family. In 3,000 BC Dan Beckle writes down the story his ancestors had handed down to him. In 2,500 BC Art Feckle writes down a story his ancestors handed down to him. In 1,000 BC God goes to Fred Farkle and tells him exactly what happened and how.

Now Joe Atheist finds the stories and concludes that Farkle copied Feckle, who copied Beckle, who copied Jeckle, who copied Schmeckle, and it's all a continuation of a myth. Three problems with that. None of these people knew each other. All the versions tell the same story. God verified the story to Farkle. The reason that the story MUST be a myth is that if it happened then the theory of evolution is debunked and we are left to admit that there is a God.

By the way. Moses didn't make up the story. He wrote what God told him to write.

By the way, no serious Biblical scholar actually thinks Moses wrote it. If you're still hung up on that myth, maybe you're not quite ready to deconstruct the flood myths.

But you did tell a cute story -- who told it to you?

TLK Valentine · Jul 28, 2012

By the way, how do you know God didn't tell Schmeckle what happened, and Farkle is just another guy who's passing along an old folk tale thousands of years later?

Dieselman · Jul 28, 2012

TLK Valentine said:
By the way, no serious Biblical scholar actually thinks Moses wrote it. If you're still hung up on that myth, maybe you're not quite ready to deconstruct the flood myths.

I think it's pretty well understood that Moses wrote the Torah, even if certain things were added afterward (like the Levitical laws. Regardless, these too were the inspired word of God, which we know is true because Jesus said it.

But you did tell a cute story -- who told it to you?

That story was handed down to me by my great grandfather Art Farkle, who got it from Feckle, who copied Beckle, who copied Jeckle, who copied Schmeckle.

Dieselman · Jul 28, 2012

TLK Valentine said:
By the way, how do you know God didn't tell Schmeckle what happened, and Farkle is just another guy who's passing along an old folk tale thousands of years later?

How do YOU know God didn't tell them all? Regardless, before the written language stories were handed down generation to generation, memorized verbatim.

Gracchus · Jul 28, 2012

Once upon a time there was a family living in the delta of the Tigris-Euphrates. Every year, when the river flooded, they would put all their livestock and household possesions on anchored reed boats, and wait out the flood. The kids, of course, would get bored and restless, and make pests of themselves, and so, to keep them occupied and out of trouble old gran'ther (He must have been at least thirty-five, and pretty much useless!) would try to keep the kids quiet by telling them stories:

"You kids think this is bad? You think the animals make this boat stink and you're tired of shoveling manure overboard. Why, when I was a kid there was a big flood, not just here in the delta but all the way up the river! Even the mountains were covered. And it didn't just last a few weeks, like this one. It lasted a whole year!

Now if you don't quit misbehavin' the gods are gonna send another flood like that and then you'll be sorry."

And then gram said: "Quiet you old fool! You're scarin' the little ones. God said he wasn't goin' ta do that no more. That's why he set his bow in the sky after the rain, the pretty one that he uses to shoot lightning at bad people."

And do you know what? People still tell that story today! (With a few "stretchers".)

USincognito · Jul 28, 2012

TLK Valentine said:
By the way, how do you know God didn't tell Schmeckle what happened, and Farkle is just another guy who's passing along an old folk tale thousands of years later?

I realize we're talking Hebrew here, not Yiddish, but

Jamin4422 · Jul 28, 2012

Doveaman said:
Well okay then.

My point still stands, however. The flood was "worldwide" even if not "global", since all people and animals on land died:

All flesh died that moved upon the earthAll in whose nostrils was the breath of life (Gen 7:21-23).

Perhaps you need to study your Bible a bit better. Or your Bible Dictionary. When you say: "all" then the word would be "Chay" in the Hebrew. That is not the word, the word is: "bahemah" This is a referance to domesticated animals. The only place we have cattle or domesticated animals at this time was in Eden. Eden may have been Noah's world at the time, but our world today is a lot bigger then that. It is amazing how few words we have to deal with. Yet even with only a few words people miss it. When you only have maybe five words to learn, then what is your excuse for not looking those words up in the dictionary to find out just what the meaning of those words are.

If the flood was a world wide flood, then how did the Kangaroo get from Australa to Noah's Ark and back to Australa again after the flood? How did the little Tazar Monkey get from the Philippines to Noah's Ark in the middle east and then back to the South Pacific Islands again after the flood? If you could fit all the animals in all the world ON the Ark, then how did you get those animals to the Middle East and then back to their part of the world again after the flood? Also how do you explain that there are more Edens then just the Eden we find in the Middle East? There are perhaps as many as 20 different Edens with their own unique Biodiversity Ecology. The evidence is overwelming that Noah's flood was not a world wide flood. His flood had to have been what we call today a local flood.

SkyWriting · Jul 28, 2012

Vance said:
In the post below, you will find the ancient Sumerian flood narrative. We don't know when it was first told, but it was first written down some time around 2000 B.C.. This not only predates the actual writing of the Genesis account, it predates Moses by and even Abraham by hundreds of years. ....

Option: # 2. The descendents of Abraham never heard the Sumerian story and, thus, their version could not have derived from or been influenced by the Sumerian flood narrative.

Option #3. The Sumerian flood narrative was mostly a correct version of what happened.
The Biblical authors made some corrections based on their own sources.
Historical events can be documented by more than one author you know.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 28, 2012

Originally Posted by Vance

In the post below, you will find the ancient Sumerian flood narrative. We don't know when it was first told, but it was first written down some time around 2000 B.C.. This not only predates the actual writing of the Genesis account, it predates Moses by and even Abraham by hundreds of years. ....

Option: # 2. The descendents of Abraham never heard the Sumerian story and, thus, their version could not have derived from or been influenced by the Sumerian flood narrative.

SkyWriting said:
Option #3. The Sumerian flood narrative was mostly a correct version of what happened.
The Biblical authors made some corrections based on their own sources.
Historical events can be documented by more than one author you know.

Good point

...

Jamin4422 · Jul 28, 2012

TLK Valentine said:
no serious Biblical scholar actually thinks Moses wrote it.

That is NOT true at all. Your creditability just dropped to zero. There is revisionism but that sort of alternate theology has it's own forum for discussion. This is not the forum for alternate theologys.

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 28, 2012

Gracchus said:
*snip*
Once upon a time there was a family living in the delta of the Tigris-Euphrates...............

And do you know what? People still tell that story today! (With a few "stretchers".)

The NT of the Christian bible mentions the Euphrates a few times

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for NKJV
"euphrates"
occurs 21 times in 21 verses in the KJV

Revelation 9:14 saying to the sixth messenger who had the trumpet, `Loose the four messengers who are bound at the great river Euphrates;'

Revelation 16:12 And the sixth messenger did pour out his vial upon the great river, the Euphrates, and dried up was its water,
that the way of the kings who are from the rising of the sun may be made ready;

2166. Euphrates yoo-frat'-ace of foreign origin (compare 6578); Euphrates, a river of Asia:--Euphrates.

Jamin4422 · Jul 28, 2012

Dieselman said:
5,000 years BC 2,500 BC

Actually there was 362 years from Noah's death to when Moses was born. Noah's sons lived longer. So Moses was not that far from the actual event. There had to be a lot known about Noah's flood back when Moses wrote the Bible.

TLK Valentine · Jul 28, 2012

Dieselman said:
I think it's pretty well understood that Moses wrote the Torah, even if certain things were added afterward (like the Levitical laws. Regardless, these too were the inspired word of God, which we know is true because Jesus said it.

Oy vey... I don't even know where to begin here. We'd really have to go back to square one.

That story was handed down to me by my great grandfather Art Farkle, who got it from Feckle, who copied Beckle, who copied Jeckle, who copied Schmeckle.

Who got it from the Babylonians while he was their prisoner?

TLK Valentine · Jul 28, 2012

Dieselman said:
How do YOU know God didn't tell them all?

Because only an author of confusion wouldn't have told them all the same thing.

Regardless, before the written language stories were handed down generation to generation, memorized verbatim.

verbatim? All of them? Now that's a good one. There are traces of two different oral traditions weaving through the Flood story alone.

How do you know God didn't tell me to set you straight?

TLK Valentine · Jul 28, 2012

SkyWriting said:
Option #3. The Sumerian flood narrative was mostly a correct version of what happened.
The Biblical authors made some corrections based on their own sources.
Historical events can be documented by more than one author you know.

Corrections, or self-serving edits?

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 28, 2012

Originally Posted by SkyWriting

Option #3. The Sumerian flood narrative was mostly a correct version of what happened.
The Biblical authors made some corrections based on their own sources.
Historical events can be documented by more than one author you know.

TLK Valentine said:
Corrections, or self-serving edits?

Ever read the Muslim's version of the virgin birth of Mary in contrast to the Christian New Testament' version.

Mary in Islam (part 3 of 3) - The Religion of Islam
The Birth of Jesus

We have already discussed the great status which Islam gives to Mary. Islam gives her the status of being the most perfect of women created. In the Quran, no woman is given more attention than Mary even though all the prophets, with the exception of Adam, had mothers.
Of the Quran’s 114 chapters, she is among the eight people who have a chapter named after them, the nineteenth chapter “Maryam”, which is Mary in Arabic.

TLK Valentine · Jul 28, 2012

Jamin4422 said:
That is NOT true at all. Your creditability just dropped to zero. There is revisionism but that sort of alternate theology has it's own forum for discussion. This is not the forum for alternate theologys.

No, this is a forum for serious Bible discussion -- old myths need not apply.

The five books stretch in origin from around the 7th century BC to about the 5th, with some sources pushing the start date as far back as the 9th or 10th BC. Whatever date you choose, it's still well after the events described therein -- a few centuries after Moses' death.

I'm afraid yours is quickly becoming the alternate theology, my friend. Jewish tradition is comforting, but ultimately not consistent with a close study of the text itself.

TLK Valentine · Jul 28, 2012

LittleLambofJesus said:
Ever read the Muslim's version of the virgin birth of Mary in contrast to the Christian New Testament' version.

Mary in Islam (part 3 of 3) - The Religion of Islam
The Birth of Jesus

We have already discussed the great status which Islam gives to Mary. Islam gives her the status of being the most perfect of women created. In the Quran, no woman is given more attention than Mary even though all the prophets, with the exception of Adam, had mothers.
Of the Qurans 114 chapters, she is among the eight people who have a chapter named after them, the nineteenth chapter Maryam, which is Mary in Arabic.

It is interesting, and I'll admit I haven't looked much into it for obvious reasons -- given that I don't believe one version of the Virgin Birth narrative, I'm not likely to believe another.

(it does, however, confirm my maxim about birth stories and heroic myths in general -- we simply can't accept the idea that great people had ordinary origins; we need to embellish those stories to enhance their greatness. The miracle of the newborn Jesus speaking to reassure his mother was particularly a hoot.)

LittleLambofJesus · Jul 28, 2012

Originally Posted by TLK Valentine

no serious Biblical scholar actually thinks Moses wrote it.

Jamin4422 said:
That is NOT true at all. Your creditability just dropped to zero. There is revisionism but that sort of alternate theology has it's own forum for discussion.
This is not the forum for alternate theologys.

Would be interesting to discuss the non- theology aspects of that. Here is a thread on it for those interested

http://www.christianforums.com/t7450766/
The Cognitum - Genesis revisionism gone mad

The pseudoscience of baraminoiogy is based upon the Created or Genesis 'kind'. The 'kind', or 'baramin', was a (mainly animal) classification invented in the 1940s to explain how Adam was able to name and remember all the thousands of species (around today) and how these could possibly have been accommodated on the Ark. The 'kind' is supposedly based on the idea that God originally created a limited number of organisms, each with the innate ability to vary within their 'kind'. Micro-evolutionary processes are the means by which this innate ability to vary is expressed, but one 'kind' is not permitted to 'evolve' into another 'kind'.

Thus the creation 'biologist' sees an 'orchard' of multiple common ancestors, whilst the evolutionary biologist identifies a bush or tree of life with a single trunk.

However, a plain reading of the Bible does not reveal anything that distinguishes 'kinds' from what, today, we would refer to as species. And neither is there mention in the Bible, or in any other ancient writings, of the necessary hyper-evolution and rapid speciation that followed creation and the flood (yes, reading the Bible there were TWO 'batches' of 'kinds').

Now we read that baraminologists have invented a new biological taxon - the Cognitum:-

The Sumerian Flood Narrative

Dieselman

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I've already read the books you want burned.

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a post by Alan Smithee

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Member

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

I've already read the books you want burned.

I've already read the books you want burned.

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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