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The Sumerian Flood Narrative

Jamin4422

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Out of curiosity, is that home in Nazareth or Bethlehem?
Mary was said to be raised in Jerusalem until the age of 12 when she hooked up with Joseph. The home I heard about was the one she was said to live in after Jesus was crucified.

"The Roman Catholic Church has never pronounced on the authenticity of the house, for lack of scientifically acceptable evidence. It has, however, from the blessing of the first pilgrimage by Pope Leo XIII in 1896, taken a positive attitude towards the site. Pope Pius XII, in 1951, following the definition of the dogma of the Assumption in 1950, elevated the house to the status of a Holy Place, a privilege later made permanent byPope John XXIII. The site is venerated by Muslims as well as Christians.[19] Pilgrims drink from a spring under the house which is believed to have healing properties. A liturgical ceremony is held here every year on August 15 to commemorate the Assumption of Mary." wiki
 
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SkyWriting

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Corrections, or self-serving edits?

Why would I know which?
The point being, two or more versions of the same event are the most likely result.
 
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TLK Valentine

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Mary was said to be raised in Jerusalem until the age of 12 when she hooked up with Joseph.

I'm aware of the tradition, but we've already seen how tradition doesn't necessarily square up with reality. This one doesn't seem to square up with Luke's Gospel -- he's pretty clear that Mary was in Nazareth. Where exactly is it said that she once or ever lived in Jerusalem? And if so, what reason was given to leave there and schlep out to the boondocks of Galilee?
 
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TLK Valentine

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Why would I know which?
The point being, two or more versions of the same event are the most likely result.

So why assume that the Biblical event is the most accurate one? Common sense would indicate that the earliest records are the more trustworthy.
 
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SkyWriting

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As much as I consider it bad form to quote oneself, I have to add on to this something about "heroic myths." Americans are taught stories such as Christopher Columbus proving the Earth was round, the Pilgrims coming to America to escape religious persecution, young George Washington chopping down a cherry tree, Betsy Ross designing the first American flag, Ben Franklin flying a kite in a thunderstorm, etc., etc..

Of course, none of these events actually happened, nevertheless, they have become such a part of our culture that they are all but history -- and still taught as history in some texts.

My point is that <snip>...

If the premise is wrong, then so the conclusion.
First of all, listing any possible myths has no effect on the reality of the next examined story.

None whatsoever.

And all of your listed myths have some basis in fact. Columbus DID prove to many that the world was not as they imagined it. Pilgrims DID come to America seeking religious freedom, people tell the stories about Washington & Betsy Ross after their deaths, Franklin wrote about the kite & key.........they all have basis in fact even if the details of some are unconfirmed.

The much-ballyhooed arrival of the Pilgrims and Puritans in New England in the early 1600s was indeed a response to persecution that these religious dissenters had experienced in England.
Read more: America's True History of Religious Tolerance | History & Archaeology | Smithsonian Magazine
 
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SkyWriting

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So why assume that the Biblical event is the most accurate one? Common sense would indicate that the earliest records are the more trustworthy.

The time of publication would have no effect on the accuracy of what is written.

But if your right then the Bible was authored long before you were alive so common sense says it's accurate and you're not.
 
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SkyWriting

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Actually there was 362 years from Noah's death to when Moses was born. Noah's sons lived longer. So Moses was not that far from the actual event. There had to be a lot known about Noah's flood back when Moses wrote the Bible.

I think 350 years is enough to discern if the flood was local or not.
 
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SkyWriting

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I'm aware of the tradition, but we've already seen how tradition doesn't necessarily square up with reality. This one doesn't seem to square up with Luke's Gospel -- he's pretty clear that Mary was in Nazareth. Where exactly is it said that she once or ever lived in Jerusalem? And if so, what reason was given to leave there and schlep out to the boondocks of Galilee?

Different storytellers often emphasize different aspects of a narrative.
 
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Gracchus

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Luke spent a lot of time talking to Mary. So we learn the most about his childhood from Luke. Although John spent time with Mary also. But he did not seem as interested in talking about the stories of Jesus growing up.
And you know this, how? It would seem to me, that this unsupported assertion is simply a fabulous attempt to convince the gullible.

Actually, John was with Mary after the crucifixion for the remainder of her life, he just didn't write about it
Uhh ... Do you have transcripts of these conversations? Do you know the dates and times they took place? did John write about the fact that he didn't write about them? If he didn't even write about not writing about them, how do you know they took place.

:doh:
 
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Dieselman

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Uhh ... Do you have transcripts of these conversations? Do you know the dates and times they took place?
John 19:
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

That's how I know Mary was with John. Jesus said it.
 
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SkyWriting

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The flood was about 2100 BC. The revelation at Mt Sanai was about 1313 BC. That's 787 years.

There are no dates for the flood. There was a guy who answered to the Pope who came up with a number for the Pope. The Bible offers no clear date.

787 years is enough time to figure out if the flood was local or not and change the lesson from, "all have sinned" to "All the locals around these parts have sinned". Instead of "All will be judged" it could easily have been changed to "ALL the people (in the lower areas) fall short of the glory of God and will be judged". Easy changes.
 
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Gracchus

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John 19:
26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!
27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.

That's how I know Mary was with John. Jesus said it.
Well, someone wrote, seventy years later that Jesus said it, and you assume the disciple in question was John.
Does the gospel say, "He said to me, 'Behold thy mother!' And from that hour I took her unto my home."?
And Iohannes was a name nearly as common as Ieshua. Why do you assume that the writer of the fourth gospel, who wrote seventy years later was the disciple, who would have been in his late eighties when the gospel was written?

I think we both know: The story is so thin, pieces had to me made up just to patch it together. Didn't Ieshua have something to say about patching old garments with new cloth?

:wave:






 
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TLK Valentine

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If the premise is wrong, then so the conclusion.
First of all, listing any possible myths has no effect on the reality of the next examined story.

It does tend to establish a pattern -- and if the next story is to be the exception, one should provide a reason why.

And all of your listed myths have some basis in fact.
But they are not facts in and of themselves.

Columbus DID prove to many that the world was not as they imagined it.
No, he didn't -- in fact, if anyone had the wrong ideas about the Earth, it was Columbus himself.

The ancient Greeks hypothesized that the Earth was round around the 6th to 5th century BC, and it was Eratosthenes who not only confirmed it, but measured its circumference accurately in around the 3rd century BC.

No educated person in Columbus' time believed in the flat Earth anymore, the issue had literally been settled over a millennia ago. The "flat Earth" story is just that, a story -- concocted from whole cloth by (of all people) Washington Irving for the writing of The Life and Times of Christopher Columbus, a three-volume work which eventually became such an international best seller, not nearly enough people thought to fact-check it.

As I said, it was Columbus' ideas about the Earth which were in error -- everyone told him that his trip to the orient was doomed to failure not because the Earth was flat, but because it was too big. And they were right -- had the American continent not been there, his ships would not have been able to carry enough food to make the crossing. Columbus grossly underestimated the size of the Earth (not being familiar with Eratosthenes' work), and was saved from starvation by pure luck.

Pilgrims DID come to America seeking religious freedom,
No, the Pilgrims left England seeking religious freedom, and they found it -- in Holland.

They had settled there and lived happily and persecution-free for years before making the decision to move yet again to the New World. The reasons were twofold -- First, Holland, then as now, was a little too liberal and free-wheeling for the strict Puritans.

Second, it was a time when wealth was measured in land, and the New World had literally millions of square miles of free land just waiting to be claimed, which fit in nicely with the Puritan belief of God rewarding His followers through wealth and prosperity, which is why they saw it as their own "Land of milk and honey." Why settle for just religious freedom when you can have religious freedom and wealth and status?

IOW, the Pilgrims did not come to America to be free, because they already were. They came here for the same reason everyone else did -- to get rich quick.

people tell the stories about Washington & Betsy Ross after their deaths,
Just as people told the stories of Moses and Jesus after their deaths -- or are you still clinging to the myth that they were eyewitness accounts, quickly scribbled by men in their little notebooks as they followed M & J around the wilderness?

Franklin wrote about the kite & key.........
He proposed the idea for the experiment, but never actually did it himself. We know this because 1: He never wrote about doing so, and Franklin was meticulous when it came to his scientific notes, and (far more telling) 2: had he performed the experiment as described, he would've been fried. Since Franklin died as an elder statesman and not as 180 pounds of burnt charcoal, the obvious conclusion is that the experiment only ever existed on paper.

they all have basis in fact even if the details of some are unconfirmed.
And I wish I could point out to you the vast difference between basis in fact and being fact -- you seem to have missed the point entirely.

You don't seem all that willing to go beyond the "basis" in fact to get to the actual fact. the myths may be close enough for your satisfaction, but not for anyone who's actually interested in the truth of what really happened.

The much-ballyhooed arrival of the Pilgrims and Puritans in New England in the early 1600s was indeed a response to persecution that these religious dissenters had experienced in England.
Which is why they went to the Netherlands. There they were free, but dirt poor. That simply wouldn't do.


"To establish themselves as rightful interpreters of the Bible independent of an inherited social and cultural order, they removed from the Anglican Church in order to re-establish it as they believed it truly should be. This of course meant leaving the country, and they left for Holland in 1608.

After 12 years, they decided to move again. Having gone back to England to obtain the backing of the Virginia Company, 102 Pilgrims set out for America. The reasons are suggested by William Bradford, when he notes the "discouragements" of the hard life they had in Holland, and the hope of attracting others by finding "a better, and easier place of living"; the "children" of the group being "drawne away by evill examples into extravagence and dangerous courses"; the "great hope, for the propagating and advancing the gospell of the kingdom of Christ in those remote parts of the world"

Pilgrims and Puritans: Background
 
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TLK Valentine

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Different storytellers often emphasize different aspects of a narrative.

Very true -- so would you kindly direct me to the storyteller who emphasized Mary's childhood in Jerusalem? Because I can already assure you, it's not in the Bible.
 
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TLK Valentine

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The flood was about 2100 BC. The revelation at Mt Sanai was about 1313 BC. That's 787 years.

And here we have all those other civilizations -- the Egyptians and the Chinese come to mind -- living in about 2100 BC who never once noticed the excessive flooding.
 
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Dieselman

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Well, someone wrote, seventy years later that Jesus said it, and you assume the disciple in question was John.
Does the gospel say, "He said to me, 'Behold thy mother!' And from that hour I took her unto my home."?
And Iohannes was a name nearly as common as Ieshua. Why do you assume that the writer of the fourth gospel, who wrote seventy years later was the disciple, who would have been in his late eighties when the gospel was written?
Your ignorance of the Bible is showing. Throughout the gospel of John, the disciple never uses the first person singular. Rather, he refers to himself as "the disciple Jesus loved." Given his closeness with Christ, he was a natural pick to take care of Mary in her declining years; a responsibility of the first born male.
 
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Doveaman

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And all of your listed myths have some basis in fact.
But they are not facts in and of themselves.
Myths are usually symbolic descriptions of facts. Decipher the symbols and we will understand the facts.

On the other hand, scientific theories are make-believe stories designed to explain facts, stories that can never be proven.
And here we have all those other civilizations -- the Egyptians and the Chinese come to mind -- living in about 2100 BC who never once noticed the excessive flooding.
When referring to ancient events, the ancient records of those who lived there are far more reliable than modern assumptions from people who did not live there.
 
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Loudmouth

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Myths are usually symbolic descriptions of facts.

That is not how I view them. Myths are metaphors for a given philosophy. When Jesus used parables he used them to illustrate the philosophy of christianity.

On the other hand, scientific theories are make-believe stories designed to explain facts, stories that can never be proven.

Germ theory and Atomic theory are make believe? Really?
 
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