The Subjectivity of Sin

[trophy33]

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
R 14:22-23

What is Paul trying to say, here? It looks like sin can be dependent on our personal faith. Sin should be something objectively immoral/harmful though, independent of our personal feelings or approval.

 

[IoanC]

If you have faith, nothing is a sin. If you don't have faith, even what is not sin becomes sin....

 

[PsaltiChrysostom]

There may be good reasons to commit one sin because it prevents more serious sin.

On 9 September 1943, a German force landed on the island of Zakinthos (Zakynthos). The German commander ordered the Greek mayor Carrer to provide him with a list of the local Jews, so that they could be deported to the mainland and from there to the camps in Poland. The mayor went to the local church leader, Metropolitan Dimitrios Chrysostomos for assistance. Following his church's leader, Chrysostomos volunteered to negotiate with the Germans and told Carrer to burn the list of the island’s 275 Jews. He then approached the German commander and implored him not to deport the Jews. The Jews were Greek citizens, he argued. They had done no harm to their neighbors and did not deserve to be punished by deportation. When the German would not listen and insisted upon receiving the list of all the local Jews, Chrysostomos took a piece of paper, wrote his own name on it and handed it over. "Here is the list of Jews you require," he said.

On 23 March 1943, when the expulsion of Jews from Thessaloniki to Auschwitz began, Archbishop Thophilos Damaskinos of Athens and all Greece published an outspoken condemnation of the deportation of Greece’s Jews. "I have taken up my cross," Demaskinos proclaimed. "I spoke to the Lord, and made up my mind to save as many Jewish souls as possible."

 

[trophy33]

If you have faith, nothing is a sin. If you don't have faith, even what is not sin becomes sin....

This seems very subjective.

 

[FireDragon76]

There may be good reasons to commit one sin because it prevents more serious sin.

On 9 September 1943, a German force landed on the island of Zakinthos (Zakynthos). The German commander ordered the Greek mayor Carrer to provide him with a list of the local Jews, so that they could be deported to the mainland and from there to the camps in Poland. The mayor went to the local church leader, Metropolitan Dimitrios Chrysostomos for assistance. Following his church's leader, Chrysostomos volunteered to negotiate with the Germans and told Carrer to burn the list of the island’s 275 Jews. He then approached the German commander and implored him not to deport the Jews. The Jews were Greek citizens, he argued. They had done no harm to their neighbors and did not deserve to be punished by deportation. When the German would not listen and insisted upon receiving the list of all the local Jews, Chrysostomos took a piece of paper, wrote his own name on it and handed it over. "Here is the list of Jews you require," he said.

On 23 March 1943, when the expulsion of Jews from Thessaloniki to Auschwitz began, Archbishop Thophilos Damaskinos of Athens and all Greece published an outspoken condemnation of the deportation of Greece’s Jews. "I have taken up my cross," Demaskinos proclaimed. "I spoke to the Lord, and made up my mind to save as many Jewish souls as possible."

Dietrich Bonhoeffer had similar sentiments regarding Christian ethics, in some situations, lying would not only be permissible, but a duty. This lead to the development of the sometimes much-maligned or misunderstood notion of "Situation Ethics" in the 1960's, popularized by some Episcopalians and Anglicans.

 

[IoanC]

This seems very subjective.

God is very subjective. He sees Himself as Perfect and Sovereign according to laws and principles known only to Himself. Without His Power/Grace, humans don't know and can't do anything.

 

[trophy33]

God is very subjective. He sees Himself as Perfect and Sovereign according to laws and principles known only to Himself. Without His Power/Grace, humans don't know and can't do anything.

I do not understand what you are saying...

If our subjective faith makes things to be sinful or not, what does it have to do with God.

 

[HTacianas]

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
R 14:22-23

What is Paul trying to say, here? It looks like sin can be dependent on our personal faith. Sin should be something objectively immoral/harmful though, independent of our personal feelings or approval.

It has to do with the conscience. If you believe something is wrong, and you do it, you have violated your conscience. If someone else believes nothing they are doing is wrong, they don't violate their conscience by doing it. Romans 14 discusses the Jewish practice of clean and unclean foods. Paul says that he is convinced that nothing is unclean, but then says not to eat unclean food if it bothers someone else.

You'll notice that Paul often seems to go off topic or change subjects for seemingly no reason. That's because in his letters we are oftentimes only hearing half of a discussion, like overhearing someone on a phone call. You hear one person talking but not the other. Churches would write to Paul and ask him questions. He answers their questions without actually stating what the questions are so we only see the answers he gives. It sometimes causes confusion.

 

[trophy33]

There may be good reasons to commit one sin because it prevents more serious sin.

On 9 September 1943, a German force landed on the island of Zakinthos (Zakynthos). The German commander ordered the Greek mayor Carrer to provide him with a list of the local Jews, so that they could be deported to the mainland and from there to the camps in Poland. The mayor went to the local church leader, Metropolitan Dimitrios Chrysostomos for assistance. Following his church's leader, Chrysostomos volunteered to negotiate with the Germans and told Carrer to burn the list of the island’s 275 Jews. He then approached the German commander and implored him not to deport the Jews. The Jews were Greek citizens, he argued. They had done no harm to their neighbors and did not deserve to be punished by deportation. When the German would not listen and insisted upon receiving the list of all the local Jews, Chrysostomos took a piece of paper, wrote his own name on it and handed it over. "Here is the list of Jews you require," he said.

On 23 March 1943, when the expulsion of Jews from Thessaloniki to Auschwitz began, Archbishop Thophilos Damaskinos of Athens and all Greece published an outspoken condemnation of the deportation of Greece’s Jews. "I have taken up my cross," Demaskinos proclaimed. "I spoke to the Lord, and made up my mind to save as many Jewish souls as possible."

I think this is not too related to my question. Your example is that a context/situation can change if a specific act is evil or not, which I understand.

But the text in the OP simply states that for example drinking wine is or is not sin, based purely on whether we think so. Which sounds weird to me.

 

[IoanC]

I do not understand what you are saying...

If our subjective faith makes things to be sinful or not, what does it have to do with God.

God is superior to humans. Humans don't know God and His ways. Unless through Revelation from Him. Everything has to do with God.

I don't understand what you are saying either; seems like you are asking about things outside of God.

 

[trophy33]

It has to do with the conscience. If you believe something is wrong, and you do it, you have violated your conscience. If someone else believes nothing they are doing is wrong, they don't violate their conscience by doing it. Romans 14 discusses the Jewish practice of clean and unclean foods. Paul says that he is convinced that nothing is unclean, but then says not to eat unclean food if it bothers someone else.

You'll notice that Paul often seems to go off topic or change subjects for seemingly no reason. That's because in his letters we are oftentimes only hearing half of a discussion, like overhearing someone on a phone call. You hear one person talking but not the other. Churches would write to Paul and ask him questions. He answers their questions without actually stating what the questions are so we only see the answers he gives. It sometimes causes confusion.

So, what do you imagine the question of the Roman church was, regarding the Paul's answer "if you doubt that what you eat is allowed, then its sin, but if you do not doubt, then its not a sin"?

 

[Freth]

Let's use English Standard Version for ease of understanding the verses.

Romans 14:22-23 ESV The faith that you have, keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who has no reason to pass judgment on himself for what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if he eats, because the eating is not from faith. For whatever does not proceed from faith is sin.​

God writes His laws in our hearts, so that we can know right from wrong. If your conscience convicts you of something, it is most likely sin. As 1 John 3:21 says, "Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God."

What is the faith Paul is talking about when he says "whatsoever is not of faith is sin"? He makes it clear in Romans 16.

Romans 16:25-27 KJV Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: To God only wise, be glory through Jesus Christ for ever. Amen.​

 

[HTacianas]

So, what do you imagine the question of the Roman church was, regarding the Paul's answer "if you doubt that what you eat is allowed, then its sin, but if you do not doubt, then its not a sin"?

It is to answer the question of unclean animals for a Christian. The first Jewish converts had it ingrained in them from birth that some animals were unclean under the law and that it was a sin to eat them. Changing that habit was difficult. Paul begins at Romans 14:1 with new believers who were "weak in the faith" and may decide not to eat meat at all. But those who were stronger in faith it didn't bother. He goes on to pretty much the same thing about the sabbath at 14:5-6. Some wanted to continue keeping the sabbath, some didn't. Paul is speaking to lifelong Jews who had become Christians, but also to gentile converts to whom those things didn't matter.

If you look at 1 Cor 7:1 you'll see that Paul is responding to "the things which you wrote to me", meaning the questions they had for him. He actually makes a list of them with his answers one at a time. He begins with sexual relations at 7:1, then to married people at 7:10, circumcision at 7:18, and on and on. You can rebuild the list of questions they had by listing the answers he gives.

 

[trophy33]

It is to answer the question of unclean animals for a Christian. The first Jewish converts had it ingrained in them from birth that some animals were unclean under the law and that it was a sin to eat them. Changing that habit was difficult. Paul begins at Romans 14:1 with new believers who were "weak in the faith" and may decide not to eat meat at all. But those who were stronger in faith it didn't bother. He goes on to pretty much the same thing about the sabbath at 14:5-6. Some wanted to continue keeping the sabbath, some didn't. Paul is speaking to lifelong Jews who had become Christians, but also to gentile converts to whom those things didn't matter.

If you look at 1 Cor 7:1 you'll see that Paul is responding to "the things which you wrote to me", meaning the questions they had for him. He actually makes a list of them with his answers one at a time. He begins with sexual relations at 7:1, then to married people at 7:10, circumcision at 7:18, and on and on. You can rebuild the list of questions they had by listing the answers he gives.

I understand all of that, but I still do not understand how my subjective view makes something objectively to be a sin.

Why Paul simply did not say "you can eat whatever you want, its not a sin, but if its hard for you to change your habits, you can continue eating just a selected food, its not a sin not to eat something".

Instead of that, he postulates the doctrine that our personal faith is what makes it sinful or not sinful. This is the point I find difficult to understand. It seems to lead to some kind of solipsism in which we create our own isolated reality.

 

[HTacianas]

I understand all of that, but I still do not understand how my subjective view makes something objectively to be a sin.

Why Paul simply did not say "you can eat whatever you want, its not a sin, but if its hard for you to change your habits, you can continue eating just a selected food, its not a sin not to eat something".

Instead of that, he postulates the doctrine that our personal faith is what makes it sinful or not sinful. This is the point I find difficult to understand.

He actually did say that at Romans 14:14, but in his own roundabout way. He tends to wander sometimes so his logic becomes dense. But this goes back to what I originally said about the conscience. If you believe what you are doing is wrong and do it anyway, it is sin. If you believe something to be wrong it is best not to do it for the sake of your conscience. Conscience is a big factor in Paul's teaching. He mentions it at Romans 2:15, 9:1, and 13:5. It's not that anyone may have a subjective opinion about something, but that their conscience convinces them that it is wrong. I know that's splitting a hair, but it's a hair that needs to be split.

 

[Maria Billingsley]

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
R 14:22-23

What is Paul trying to say, here? It looks like sin can be dependent on our personal faith. Sin should be something objectively immoral/harmful though, independent of our personal feelings or approval.

Paul is speaking of doubt. Doubt can spiral into apostasy. Doubt is caused by quenching His Holy Spirit. When we stop walking in His Light we begin to walk in darkness. Then sin consumes. Doubt kills faith because faith is the natural consequence of a regenerated Christian who will never doubt their Lord and King, Jesus Christ of Nazareth.
Blessings.

 

[trophy33]

If you believe what you are doing is wrong and do it anyway, it is sin.

How does this work? If I believe that having windows in my room is sin, it becomes a real sin that must be forgiven by God?

 

[zippy2006]

How does this work? If I believe that having windows in my room is sin, it becomes a real sin that must be forgiven by God?

You could think of it this way: sin is twofold, subjective and objective. Subjectively it is sinful to do that which we believe to be evil. Objectively it is sinful to do that which is objectively evil.

For example, if a pro-choicer has an abortion it is an objective sin but not a subjective sin. They did something which was evil, and yet they did not do something which they believed to be evil (supposedly, at least). This does not excuse their sin, but it does lessen it insofar as the person who commits an abortion and also believes that abortion is evil has committed the greater sin (a sin which combines the subjective and objective elements).

But Paul is talking about the case where something is not an objective sin but it is a subjective sin. To take an innocuous example, suppose someone was brought up with the superstitious belief that, "If you step on a crack you will break your mother's back." Now this is not objectively a sin, because no harm befalls one's mother when they step on a crack. But if a person believes this is true, then it becomes a sin for them to do it, because it is a sin to do that which we believe to be evil. Going around trying to do evil things is bad, even if you are mistaken about their badness. If someone steps on all the cracks in sight in order to try to murder their mother, they are sinning, even though no harm will befall their mother.

 

[timothyu]

Sin is simply putting our will ahead of the will of the Father. Word it as you will. Fragment it into all the examples you want. From the Garden to Rev. it is all about this. The Lord's Prayer gives us the alternative.. His will be done in earth.. not ours

 

[eleos1954]

So whatever you believe about these things keep between yourself and God. Blessed is the one who does not condemn himself by what he approves. But whoever has doubts is condemned if they eat, because their eating is not from faith; and everything that does not come from faith is sin.
R 14:22-23

What is Paul trying to say, here? It looks like sin can be dependent on our personal faith. Sin should be something objectively immoral/harmful though, independent of our personal feelings or approval.

In verses 17–20 Paul is putting various aspects of Christianity into more proper perspective (the context meat sacrificed to idols). Although diet is important, Christians ought not to quarrel over the choice on the part of some to eat vegetables instead of flesh meats that might have been sacrificed to idols.

Instead, they ought to focus on righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.

We are not to judge someone over what they eat (meat sacrificed to idols) .... let them be convinced in their own mind.

Paul was bringing forth that judging someone over what they eat (meat sacrificed to idols) is/was often unknown and because so to focus on the importance of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Certainly if it was/is known that the meat was/is sacrificed to idols .... no .... don't eat it ... but otherwise don't quibble about it ... leave between the person and God.