The subject of hell

[hedrick]

I agree that a lot of NT passages look like annihilation, when you look at the OT passages on which many of them are based. However Jesus seems to talk about punishment. That leaves

* everyone or almost everyone is saved eventually. but there is some interim punishment
* people are punished before being destroyed
* the punishments aren't really punishment, but signs of something else, perhaps regret over how we had lived our lives, perhaps the kind of purification that Paul talked about in 1 Cor 3:12-15. Everyone or almost everyone is saved.

Interestingly, I first ran into the view that some of Jesus' punishments are really symbolic of regret in a book by the S. Baptist leader Charles Stanley.

Alternatives (1) and (3) may be essentially the same thing. It has the advantage of being one common Jewish view in the 1st Cent (and now), though combined with the possibility that a few people are never saved, in which case I'd say they are likely destroyed.

Since Jesus talked a lot about judgement, but never really described the whole scheme, it seems reasonable to assume he was using ideas that a 1st Cent Jewish audience would have understood. As I understand it, 1st Cent ideas weren't uniform. But his view seems consistent with one known Jewish view:most people are saved, but a few are not. Those who are may suffer, but not for more than a year.

My own speculation is that the suffering is not like a prison sentence, or traditional purgatory, but a symbol of regret, and possibly also 1 Cor 3 (which seems to be a one-time act, not an amount of time you serve).

To the common complaint "how could Hitler be saved," my reading of 1 Cor 3 is that everything that led to his horrors would be purged. He might end up being reset to before he went wrong, like a 2 year old version of himself. Even Christians, Paul tells us, will lose everything in us that isn't built on Christ.

 

[miggles]

i think hell is eternal darkness. you die and you are totally ALONE. you wander around in total darkness for eternity. never meeting up with another soul or thing. it's nothingness. it's like being blind and deaf. it's a conscious death. the lake of fire is for satan and the fallen angels. it's what i understand.

 

[Mustaphile]

I think I've been influenced by some Eastern philosophies in this area, but I tend to think that if we can't let go of the idea of self, then we are in a state of suffering. Concepts like purgatory seem to hint at this idea in that we need to have the last vestiges of an illusory identity with self (the flesh) purged so that we can be in the presence of God in a selfless state and be 'married' to God.

The stories of the difficulties of rich man's difficulties getting into heaven, the renunciation of family in pursuit of God, appear to me to be associated with difficulty of identifying with God when we have such strong conceptions of self.

I explored the idea of universal salvation, but that is like the Platonic ideal. It doesn't exist in a material sense, but it points to a place where we can all aspire to be. Having arrived though, we might find there is no materiality about it at all!

 

[SkyWriting]

Christians usually fall within three different views on the subject of hell. Eternal torment, Annihilation, and Universal Reconciliation.

I have heard/read people say "If there is no hell, why believe in God/Jesus?"

And I always think. "Is God not worth loving because of who he is? and what he has created?" Maybe it's because over the last few years, I have gained an extreme appreciation for the small things. Like the five senses, the ability to see and comprehend beauty, the ability to taste my favorite foods, the ability to read a fun fantasy novel, the ability to feel sensation.
There is something sublime about it.

I am not OK with the idea of Eternal torture room hell. But for many Christians, this seems to be the norm. But Universal Reconciliation is look at as controversial, Why? Is belief in Eternal torment really necessary?

Annihilation seems to be the more accepted alternate view, it is still controversial for some Christians, But won't get nearly as big of a negative reaction from many Christians as U.R.

The torment will not end until both death and Hell are annihilated in the lake of fire.
And torment only exists while people are still living. After physical death, people sleep until judgment day.

 

[Basil the Great]

i think hell is eternal darkness. you die and you are totally ALONE. you wander around in total darkness for eternity. never meeting up with another soul or thing. it's nothingness. it's like being blind and deaf. it's a conscious death. the lake of fire is for satan and the fallen angels. it's what i understand.

If Hell exists, I view it as a very dark and lonely place.

 

[Strivax]

So, one of the reasons I like to be a progressive liberal is that I am allowed to come up with theories about stuff like this that make sense to me. Be warned, though, they may make no sense to you.

So, Heaven and Hell. My current thinking is that they are the same place: the presence of God. The good, of course, will love that, and find themselves vindicated, and find thus their Heaven. The evil will not be so happy. For the Hitlers, Stalins, Pol Pots and (I anticipate) Putins of the world do not like what is good, still less what is supremely good. For them, the presence of God will be Hell.

However, being a soft hearted sort of a Strivax, I hope that even these evil people will still have the chance to repent, atone, and eventually join the communion of the good. Their first step in their redemption, of course, is to recognise the truth about themselves. They may, for all eternity, be unable to bring themselves to do that. Their decision, their problem. Even if they can, they will still have a tough row to hoe. Repentance is not easy, nor atonement, and God, in my experience, is no sentimental pushover.

Best wishes, Strivax.

 

[Der Alte]

I looked around but could not find anything which says I can't post here. I have discussed this topic for a long time.
“αιωνιος/aionios” occurs 72x in the N.T.
“aionios” is translated world only 3 times in the N.T. [1%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “eternal” 42 times in the N.T.[52%]
“aionios” is correctly translated “everlasting” 25 times in the N.T.[34.7%]
Jesus used “aionios” twenty eight [28] times, [38.8% of total] Jesus never used “aionios” to refer something common, ordinary/mundane which was not/could not be “eternal.”
…..Some people claim that “αιων/aion//αιωνιος/aionios never mean eternity/eternal,” because a few times they refer to something which is not eternal e.g. “world.”
However, neither word is ever defined/described, by adjectives or descriptive phrases, as meaning a period less than eternal, as in the following NT verses.

John 3:15
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal [aionion] life.
John 3:16
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting [aionion] life. ​

In these two verses Jesus parallels “aionion” with “should not perish,” twice. Believers could eventually perish in a finite age, by definition “aionion life” here means eternal or everlasting life.

John 10:28
(28) I give them eternal [aionios] life, and they shall never [aion] perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.​

In this verse Jesus parallels “aionios” and “aion” with “[not] snatch them out of my hand”, and “never perish.” If “aion/aionios” means “age(s), a finite age,” that is not the opposite of “[not] snatch them out of my hand’/never perish” “Aionios life” by definition here means “eternal life.”

Romans 1:20
(20) For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal [aidios] power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Romans 16:26
(26) But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting [aionios] God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:​

In Rom 1:20, above, Paul refers to God’s power and Godhead as “aidios.” Scholars unanimously agree “aidios” unquestionably means eternal, everlasting, unending etc. In Rom 16:26, Paul, the same writer, in the same writing, refers to God as “aionios.” Paul has used “aionios” synonymous with “aidios.” In this verse, by definition, “aionios” means eternal, everlasting etc.
.....Now having established the meaning of the word "aionios."

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:
The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive
…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. A noun cannot be translated as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of continuous, uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. In the same way English speaking scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[Der Alte]

Christians usually fall within three different views on the subject of hell. Eternal torment, Annihilation, and Universal Reconciliation.
I have heard/read people say "If there is no hell, why believe in God/Jesus?"
And I always think. "Is God not worth loving because of who he is? and what he has created?" Maybe it's because over the last few years, I have gained an extreme appreciation for the small things. Like the five senses, the ability to see and comprehend beauty, the ability to taste my favorite foods, the ability to read a fun fantasy novel, the ability to feel sensation.
There is something sublime about it.
I am not OK with the idea of Eternal torture room hell. But for many Christians, this seems to be the norm. But Universal Reconciliation is look at as controversial, Why? Is belief in Eternal torment really necessary?
Annihilation seems to be the more accepted alternate view, it is still controversial for some Christians, But won't get nearly as big of a negative reaction from many Christians as U.R.

The correct biblical term is not "eternal torment" but "eternal punishment" Matthew 25:46
Please see my post # 27 immediately above on the meaning of "aionios" "eternal" and "kolasis.""punishment."

 

[Der Alte]

Annihilationism and Universalism are not truly "no hell"
Personally, I think Annihilationism is the most biblical. What I find hypocritical about proponents of Eternal Conscious Torment is that they accuse Annihilationists of trying to whitewash the doctrine of Hell whereas most ECTers firmly reject a the view of Hell as a literal lake of fire, despite the fact that both Jude and 2 Peter cite Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of God's future judgement. Was S&G literally burnt to ashes? The main argument that Hell can't be literal because it cannot both be a place of fire and a place of darkness suffers from a severe lack of imagination and committing the black-and-white fallacy. Not to mention, a "Hell" consisting of both darkness and fire can be found in other world religions, such as Zoroastrianism.
Judaism had no concept of an "immortal soul." That comes from Greek philosophy. According to Romans 2, immortality is a gift given only to the righteous.

My ¢¢, Below are quotes from three Jewish sources; the 1917 Jewish Encyclopedia, 1972 Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud. Which to date have not been, and I am convinced cannot be, refuted.
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…..It is very enticing to claim that the Christian concept of "Hell" was somehow derived from or influenced by Dante's 14th century writing “Inferno,” or some later writing. But according to these three sources, at least 16 centuries before Dante even scribbled one line, among the יהודים /Yehudim/ιουδαιων/Youdaion/Jews in Israel, before and during the time of Jesus, there was a significant belief in a place of everlasting torment of the wicked and they called it both sheol and gehinnom. Sheol and gehinnom are written Hades and Gehenna, respectively, in both the 225 BC LXX and the NT.
As can be seen by the citations in this post The Jews later called both Sheol/Hades, and Ge Hinnom/Gehenna, “Hell.”
…..There were different factions within Judaism; Sadducees, Pharisees, Essenes etc. and different beliefs about resurrection, hell etc. These differing beliefs do not disprove anything in this post.

[1]1925 Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch … in the "valley of the sons of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). … the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a);[“Soon” in this paragraph would be about 700 BC +/-, DA]​

Note: This is according to the ancient Jews, centuries before the Christian era, NOT any assumed/alleged bias of “modern” Christian translators. DA
…..This refutes the false narrative that the eleven [11] times Jesus mentioned “Gehenna” He was referring to the valley of GeHinnom/Gehenna where trash and bodies were supposedly always burning. It never happened!

”(I)n general …sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai [30 BC-90 AD] wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell(B.M. 83b).
“But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab [Talmud]. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
“… heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b).[Talmud] “When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; [Talmud] comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch [x. 6, xci. 9, etal] also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment.
"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according toIsa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b)[Talmud].
Link: Jewish Encyclopedia Online
Note, scripture references are highlighted in blue.
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[2]1972 Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.; ). Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Link:
Gehinnom
http://www.jevzajcg.me/enciklopedia/Encyclopaedia Judaica, v. 07 (Fey-Gor).pdf
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[3]Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [i.e. followers of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. Xxxii, 11]:
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written[Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.
Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Link: Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.​

When Jesus taught e.g.,

• “Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:” Matthew 25:41
• "these shall go away into eternal punishment, Matthew 25:46"
• "the fire of hell [Γέεννα/gehenna] where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, 3 times Mark 9:43-48"
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Matthew 13:42, Matthew 13:50
• “But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.” Matthew 18:6 [A fate worse than death. DA]
• “Not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. …And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.” Matthew 7:23
• “woe unto that man by whom the Son of man is betrayed! it had been good for that man if he had not been born. ” Matthew 26:24 [A fate worse than death]
• “But I say unto you, that it shall be more tolerable in that day for Sodom, than for that city.” Luke 10:12​

[A fate worse than death. DA]
…..These teachings tacitly reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell, c.f. Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and Talmud, supra.
In Matt. 18:6, 26:24 and Luk 10:12, see above, Jesus teaches there is a punishment worse than death or nonexistence.
…..A punishment worse than death, without mercy, is also mentioned in Hebrews 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. [A fate worse than death. DA] ​

…..“how much sorer punishment,””Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord,””It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God” these deprecations certainly do not sound like everyone will be saved, no matter what.
…..Jesus is quoted as using the word death 17 times in the gospels, if He intended to say “eternal death,” in Matt 25:46, that is what He would have said but He didn’t, He said “eternal punishment/aionios kolasis.”
….The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, see Acts of the Apostles 23:8. They knew that everybody died; rich, poor; young, old; good, bad; men, women; children, infants; sick, healthy, and knew that it was permanent and often it did not involve punishment.
When Jesus taught, e.g., “eternal punishment” the Sadducees would not have understood it as simply death, it very likely would have meant something worse to them.
…..Re: Matt 25:46 concerning “punishment” one early church father wrote,

“Then these reap no advantage from their punishment, as it seems: moreover, I would say that they are not punished unless they are conscious of the punishment.” Justin Martyr [A.D. 110-165.] Dialogue with Trypho Chapter 4​

…..Jesus attended Temple and synagogues for about 25 years +/-. He undoubtedly knew what the Jews believed about the fate of the unrighteous. He opposed the Jewish leaders many times, If the Jewish teaching on hell was wrong, why wouldn’t Jesus tell them there was no hell, no eternal punishment etc? Why would Jesus teach “eternal punishment,” etc. to Jews who believed, e.g.

"The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"[/i] ([Judith xvi:17]Judith xvi. 17).
Link: Judith, CHAPTER 16​