The stumbling block for atheists.

[konan]

i think ur asking me if God made us with freewill? If so, yes He did

 

[konan]

bhsmte said:That would be; the illusion of free will.

I say:it's not an illusion if you weren't forced to make the decision

 

[bhsmte]

bhsmte said:That would be; the illusion of free will.

I say:it's not an illusion if you weren't forced to make the decision

How would one know if they were forced?

 

[konan]

kts said:But I can't do anything OTHER than what God has foreknowledge of, can I?

I say: the word is you WON'T do anything other than what God has foreknowledge of

 

[konan]

bhsmte said:How would one know if they were forced?

I say: the fact that I am a christian and I still do sinful acts tells me I'm not being forced.If God predestined me to be His, I would robotically fulfil His wishes. Besides there's another factor here, if God predestined us why would His Son have to die for us?

 

[bhsmte]

bhsmte said:How would one know if they were forced?

I say: the fact that I am a christian and I still do sinful acts tells me I'm not being forced.If God predestined me to be His, I would robotically fulfil His wishes. Besides there's another factor here, if God predestined us why would His Son have to die for us?

If behavior was predestined for you, you would not have knowledge you were being forced. Hence, the illusion of free will.

 

[konan]

b said:If behavior was predestined for you, you would not have knowledge you were being forced. Hence, the illusion of free will.

I say: true but my behavior is foreknown not predestined if there weren't freewill

 

[Chriliman]

You seem unable to grasp the contradiction between our future actions being completely known and our having free will.

That's because there is no contradiction. God's knowledge of someone's choice does not dictate that choice for them.

On the other hand, when God predestines someone to do something, His will is done, not theirs.

If I have no choice but to do what God has foreseen me do, then I have no free will. The two ideas are completely incompatible with each other.

There's a difference between seeing someone do something of their own accord and predestining someone do something of your accord.

 

[konan]

Well put chriliman

 

[bhsmte]

b said:If behavior was predestined for you, you would not have knowledge you were being forced. Hence, the illusion of free will.

I say: true but my behavior is foreknown not predestined if there weren't freewill

How is behavior foreknown, without it being predestined, magic?

 

[konan]

OK here's an example. I have a time machine and I went forward in time and saw u buy a lotto ticket, but nowhere in my viewing you do that did I cause you to. I go back to present day and I foreknow what you are going to do and never made you do it

 

[bhsmte]

OK here's an example. I have a time machine and I went forward in time and saw u buy a lotto ticket, but nowhere in my viewing you do that did I cause you to. I go back to present day and I foreknow what you are going to do and never made you do it

Can you jump in that time machine, and give me all the scores for tomorrow's games?

 

[konan]

I'm telling ya

 

[Kylie]

That's because there is no contradiction. God's knowledge of someone's choice does not dictate that choice for them.

If God knows I will have toast for breakfast tomorrow instead of eggs, then there's no way I can choose to have anything other than toast. Therefore I have no choice.

What part of that is wrong?

On the other hand, when God predestines someone to do something, His will is done, not theirs.

There's a difference between seeing someone do something of their own accord and predestining someone do something of your accord.

Yes, and I'm not saying where the accountability lies.

I'm saying that if it is known for a fact what will happen in the future, then the future cannot happen any other possible way. Thus, no choice.

 

[Kylie]

OK here's an example. I have a time machine and I went forward in time and saw u buy a lotto ticket, but nowhere in my viewing you do that did I cause you to. I go back to present day and I foreknow what you are going to do and never made you do it

That would seem to be a great way to achieve immortality.

You pop a day into the future and see me buy a lotto ticket. Now, I can't possibly die today. Because, if I die today, I won't exist tomorrow to buy the lotto ticket, will I? So I go and jump in front of a train. What will happen to save my life? Will my body become invulnerable?

it also means I can't choose to go to the local pub and lose all my money in the poker machines, since I'll need some money tomorrow to buy the lotto ticket.

Also, you will have access to information about your future that is in the past. Let's say that you set out on your time travel trip at lunchtime today. At 12:00, you jump in your time machine, travel 24 hours into the future, and see me buy the lotto ticket at 12:00 tomorrow. You remain there until 12:05, at which point you return to today, getting back at 12:05.

Now, during your five minutes in the future, someone could have said to you, "Congratulations, Konan? I heard you won a million dollars on a scratchy yesterday at 4pm." Now, when you return to today, you have the knowledge that you will win a million dollars on a scratchy within 4 hours of your return. Wouldn't you run out to buy a scratchy? And let's say that you winning makes me think, "Well, the chances of both Konan and I winning money are tiny, so I might as well not waste my money buying a lotto ticket." So I stay home and don't buy the ticket.

 

[konan]

That would seem to be a great way to achieve immortality.

You pop a day into the future and see me buy a lotto ticket. Now, I can't possibly die today. Because, if I die today, I won't exist tomorrow to buy the lotto ticket, will I? So I go and jump in front of a train. What will happen to save my life? Will my body become invulnerable?

it also means I can't choose to go to the local pub and lose all my money in the poker machines, since I'll need some money tomorrow to buy the lotto ticket.

Also, you will have access to information about your future that is in the past. Let's say that you set out on your time travel trip at lunchtime today. At 12:00, you jump in your time machine, travel 24 hours into the future, and see me buy the lotto ticket at 12:00 tomorrow. You remain there until 12:05, at which point you return to today, getting back at 12:05.

Now, during your five minutes in the future, someone could have said to you, "Congratulations, Konan? I heard you won a million dollars on a scratchy yesterday at 4pm." Now, when you return to today, you have the knowledge that you will win a million dollars on a scratchy within 4 hours of your return. Wouldn't you run out to buy a scratchy? And let's say that you winning makes me think, "Well, the chances of both Konan and I winning money are tiny, so I might as well not waste my money buying a lotto ticket." So I stay home and don't buy the ticket.

 

[konan]

Sure are a lot of choices being made in there. The point is its not that you can't make those choices, it's that you won't so God didn't force you

 

[Chriliman]

If God knows I will have toast for breakfast tomorrow instead of eggs, then there's no way I can choose to have anything other than toast. Therefore I have no choice.

What part of that is wrong?



Yes, and I'm not saying where the accountability lies.

I'm saying that if it is known for a fact what will happen in the future, then the future cannot happen any other possible way. Thus, no choice.

Yet, had you not made the choice then the foreknowledge of it wouldn't exist.

Again, just because someone knows your choices doesn't mean you can't make choices of your own accord. However, the knowledge that someone knows your choices may in some way effect what you choose to do next.

 

[Kylie]

Sure are a lot of choices being made in there. The point is its not that you can't make those choices, it's that you won't so God didn't force you

But if God knows what I will choice, I no longer have the choice to do anything else.

 

[Kylie]

Yet, had you not made the choice then the foreknowledge of it wouldn't exist.

Again, just because someone knows your choices doesn't mean you can't make choices of your own accord. However, the knowledge that someone knows your choices may in some way effect what you choose to do next.

You are missing my point.

In order for something to be a choice, there must be several possible options. Once the "choice" is known, then there is only ONE option. If there is only one option, it no longer meets the criteria for being a choice.