The stumbling block for atheists.

[TagliatelliMonster]

I'm not saying you're wrong in regards to foreknowledge. I agree that the concept of foreknowledge has to be based on actual events that actually come to pass.

Owkay.

Then we can get to the main point: perfect foreknowledge about everything can not exist in a universe where there is free will.

To know what my actions will be before I can even think about them, means that I never had free choice. At best, I'ld have the illusion thereof.

And yes, that goes for god(s) as well.

Having free choice implies the potential of making any choice. Knowing my choice before I am even presented with a choice, means my choices are pre-determined. Which would contradict the "free" part.

 

[Chriliman]

Owkay.

Then we can get to the main point: perfect foreknowledge about everything can not exist in a universe where there is free will.

To know what my actions will be before I can even think about them, means that I never had free choice. At best, I'ld have the illusion thereof.

And yes, that goes for god(s) as well.

Having free choice implies the potential of making any choice. Knowing my choice before I am even presented with a choice, means my choices are pre-determined. Which would contradict the "free" part.

Okay, but I'm saying every choice you or anyone ever makes can be known and you'd still have the ability to choose whatever you desire in any moment.

Lets go back to your child throwing a piece of paper in the trash. Lets say you know your child really well and he is very obedient and you know he's capable of throwing something in the trash. You have enough confidence in your knowledge of the situation to say your son will throw the piece of paper in the trash and it turns out that he does <this is important

What this scenario is suggesting is that your knowledge is accurate even in predicting future events, this is how I prefer to think of foreknowledge. It's not that you've witnessed your son doing something before he does it meaning he really has no choice but to do it, but rather that you have enough knowledge and confidence in what your son is capable of to confidently say he will do it. The fact that he does it, confirms your knowledge is and was accurate.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

It's not logical you say? But you are a man who is hopelessly inept at logic...

For example?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...It's not that you've witnessed your son doing something before he does it meaning he really has no choice but to do it, but rather that you have enough knowledge and confidence in what your son is capable of to confidently say he will do it. The fact that he does it, confirms your knowledge is and was accurate.

Yes; however, in that situation however confident you are, you cannot be certain - your son could surprise you by doing something different.

Bit if you had absolute certainty (perfect foreknowledge), it would logically imply that your son could not do otherwise, his predicted action would, by definition, be inevitable. That doesn't necessarily mean you make him do it; that particular outcome would just be inevitable.

 

[dad]

It's not logical you say? But you are a man who is hopelessly inept at logic...

Regardless of what I say, GOD says your natural 'wisdom' is foolishness.

 

[Kylie]

Okay, but I'm saying every choice you or anyone ever makes can be known and you'd still have the ability to choose whatever you desire in any moment.

Lets go back to your child throwing a piece of paper in the trash. Lets say you know your child really well and he is very obedient and you know he's capable of throwing something in the trash. You have enough confidence in your knowledge of the situation to say your son will throw the piece of paper in the trash and it turns out that he does <this is important

What this scenario is suggesting is that your knowledge is accurate even in predicting future events, this is how I prefer to think of foreknowledge. It's not that you've witnessed your son doing something before he does it meaning he really has no choice but to do it, but rather that you have enough knowledge and confidence in what your son is capable of to confidently say he will do it. The fact that he does it, confirms your knowledge is and was accurate.

But you don't know 100% for sure that he will, do you?

 

[Chriliman]

Yes; however, in that situation however confident you are, you cannot be certain - your son could surprise you by doing something different.

Bit if you had absolute certainty (perfect foreknowledge), it would logically imply that your son could not do otherwise, his predicted action would, by definition, be inevitable. That doesn't necessarily mean you make him do it; that particular outcome would just be inevitable.

Right, so in either case, foreknowledge, whether it's 100% certain or not, and freedom of the will can coexist.

 

[Chriliman]

But you don't know 100% for sure that he will, do you?

That would depend if you actually witnessed the future before it happened. In this case you haven't, but you're extremely confident that he'll do it because of what you know about him and the situation.

 

[Kylie]

That would depend if you actually witnessed the future before it happened. In this case you haven't, but you're extremely confident that he'll do it because of what you know about him and the situation.

So God HAS seen the future then?

 

[Chriliman]

So God HAS seen the future then?

God has and is and will experience all time, so yes.

It has also been pointed out above that even though God experiences all time, this does not mean free will can't exist, it just means you don't yet know what choices you'll make in the future, but eventually they will be known because you will have made them.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Right, so in either case, foreknowledge, whether it's 100% certain or not, and freedom of the will can coexist.

Uncertain foreknowledge and freedom of the will are not contradictory, but 100% certain foreknowledge and freedom of the will are contradictory - unless you're happy to accept 'freedom of the will' as the feeling that you exercise free will although your choices are, for all practical purposes, deterministic.

This is my preferred interpretation of free will - personally, I rather want my actions to be determined by the result of my lifetime development, experiences and learning, determined by my state of mind, emotional and rational, determined by the long-term interaction of my genetic inheritance with the environment. These are the things that make me who and what I am - if my choices were not determined by these things, they wouldn't be my choices..

 

[Radrook]

With power comes responsibility.

Luke 12:48
New International Version
.... From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

 

[Chriliman]

Uncertain foreknowledge and freedom of the will are not contradictory, but 100% certain foreknowledge and freedom of the will are contradictory -

Then what did you mean by the below? My bold.

Bit if you had absolute certainty (perfect foreknowledge), it would logically imply that your son could not do otherwise, his predicted action would, by definition, be inevitable. That doesn't necessarily mean you make him do it; that particular outcome would just be inevitable.

If you don't make him do it, then he did it of his own volition, albeit with some influence from you, but the fact that he did it of his volition is how it became inevitable.

This is my preferred interpretation of free will - personally, I rather want my actions to be determined by the result of my lifetime development, experiences and learning, determined by my state of mind, emotional and rational, determined by the long-term interaction of my genetic inheritance with the environment. These are the things that make me who and what I am - if my choices were not determined by these things, they wouldn't be my choices..

Would you object if you eventually came to know God through your experience of life and death?

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

...If you don't make him do it, then he did it of his own volition, albeit with some influence from you, but the fact that he did it of his volition is how it became inevitable.

It would mean his 'volition' was deterministic - entirely determined by events at least as far back as the first certain foreknowledge of them; i.e. inevitable given the circumstances. Those events would also involve his brain activity.

At this point, a lot hangs on your precise definition of 'free will' or 'volition'; my own preference is a roughly compatibilist one, with free will involving not feeling constrained or coerced in one's choices (while acknowledging that the concept of 'choice' is an implicit acknowledgment of incomplete knowledge of the context), and volition involving goal-oriented thinking. I suspect your definition is different (e.g. libertarian), but I don't know the detail - care to clarify?

Would you object if you eventually came to know God through your experience of life and death?

Of course not; why would I object to knowing something through experience?

I don't anticipate it happening, as I think death is the cessation of experience; but I'd accept the counterfactual - how could I not?

 

[Kylie]

God has and is and will experience all time, so yes.

It has also been pointed out above that even though God experiences all time, this does not mean free will can't exist, it just means you don't yet know what choices you'll make in the future, but eventually they will be known because you will have made them.

You seem unable to grasp the contradiction between our future actions being completely known and our having free will.

If I have no choice but to do what God has foreseen me do, then I have no free will. The two ideas are completely incompatible with each other.

 

[konan]

Owkay.

Then we can get to the main point: perfect foreknowledge about everything can not exist in a universe where there is free will.

To know what my actions will be before I can even think about them, means that I never had free choice. At best, I'ld have the illusion thereof.

And yes, that goes for god(s) as well.

Having free choice implies the potential of making any choice. Knowing my choice before I am even presented with a choice, means my choices are pre-determined. Which would contradict the "free" part.

 

[konan]

1. Having foreknowledge is not the same as being predestined. God knows what decision you will freely make of ur own accord

 

[Kylie]

1. Having foreknowledge is not the same as being predestined. God knows what decision you will freely make of ur own accord

But I can't do anything OTHER than what God has foreknowledge of, can I?

 

[bhsmte]

You seem unable to grasp the contradiction between our future actions being completely known and our having free will.

If I have no choice but to do what God has foreseen me do, then I have no free will. The two ideas are completely incompatible with each other.

That would be; the illusion of free will.

 

[bhsmte]

1. Having foreknowledge is not the same as being predestined. God knows what decision you will freely make of ur own accord

And according to you, God made a person that way, correct?