The stumbling block for atheists.

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

We KNOW that coded information involves a coding mind.

Fallacious thinking. We once knew that only humans made and used tools - then we discovered that it wasn't true.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

What experiments do you use to test to see whether your immediate conclusion that a computer is evidence of intelligent design do you employ?

You could start by visiting one of the many factories where they are manufactured:

Of course you just immediately assume that it is and carry on and would consider my demand that you prove it nonsensical and even might tag me as feeble-minded for having brought it up.

I just proved it, with the picture posted above.


Now, what experiment should be conducted to test your ideas?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I am simply following your reasoning to its logical conclusion.

Not sure which reasoning you are using, but it certainly isn't Loudmouth's.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The problem isn't responding-it is responding only to be told by the same individuals that they don't understand. So since I am being asked to tell these individuals over and over the same thing only to have them say they don't understand, I will simply not participate in this thread. That should solve the problem.

BTW
These persons have been told on other threads what my position in reference to ID is and STILL insist that I repeat myself. I am not a machine. It comes across as an effort to annoy.

I submit that you haven't once been clear about your position.
Every post of you has been very vague. This is why people ask you questions.
They don't ask you questions "to annoy you" or to "feign not understanding".

They ask you questions because you aren't being clear.

Instead of simply answering the questions, you retreat in an extremely defensive corner and start accusing the people who ask questions of all kinds of things.

And yes, when you categorically act like that everytime your vague statements are questioned, people will start to draw conclusions based on that.

 

[4x4toy]

G

Dave please requote my post I accidently hit the post button before I was through

 

[Freodin]

Hi Dave . I was an Atheist and pondered pretty much the same questions as you .

This is a "stumbling block" for atheists (well, at least me). Not in regard to "believing in God", but to "taking Christians serious".

See, when you tell me that you had been an atheist, and "pondered pretty much the same questions"... and then go on and make a rambling post that shows not a hint of these questions we might have asked, or the conclusions we might have found... I don't believe you.

I won't deny that you have been an "atheist"... many people have varying definitions of what that terms means, and what it means to them. Definitions I for myself might disagree with.

But I think I can definitly say that you have never been an atheist like I am an atheist. And if the rest of your post is meant in any way to explain why you changed or how this answers your questions, I can also definitly say: you have no clue about atheists like me.

 

[quatona]

We KNOW that coded information involves a coding mind.

I was responding to a particular argument of yours. Simply moving the goalposts doesn´t address my point.

So I guess we have the same basis for belief-knowing.

No, we don´t. As I have pointed out.

The difference is that your KNOWING is a totally illogical basis for rejection of intelligent design

I´m not rejecting intelligent design. I´m just rejecting your arguments for the necessity of an ID.

BTW
Asking for the identity of a designer in order to accept that something was designed? Hopefully you are making a joke. Otherwise it raises suspicions of not playing with full deck.

I didn´t say anything about asking for the identity. I just pointed out the significant differences between knowing that computers is designed, and concluding that the universe must be designed.

 

[Dave RP]

G


Dave please requote my post I accidently hit the post button before I was through

Hi Dave . I was an Atheist and pondered pretty much the same questions as you . We are born to die . Along the way we live , so we exist . Can it be reasonable to assume God exists too ? That was one of the last questions I asked myself as an Atheist . So I heard testimony of people I knew before they got saved and changed . So I began to wonder if maybe there was something about all the millions of people who became Christians . Was I that much more intelligent than those folks to know better than God ? I was humbled at the thought of my arrogance .. Now if you were rich and a woman put on the show and married you for your money but didn't love you or cared, you're headed for trouble . But God seeks people who love him , so if we went by any thing but faith then thieves would sneak in . We are given a choice on purpose , free will to love God and his ways as demonstrated by Jesus or not on an even playing field .. If people knew there was hell waiting on them they would line up for God but the way God set it up is you must love the idea or reject .. If you accept the gift then you grow testimony of the truth .. As far as worshiping God goes , we are creatures who are made to worship and Jesus is worthy, kinda like a job and duty , far from vanity .. Jesus spoke of a woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair , God knows I love that kindness showed to my Savior .. The man was obedient to death for us to save us ..

 

[4x4toy]

This is a "stumbling block" for atheists (well, at least me). Not in regard to "believing in God", but to "taking Christians serious".

See, when you tell me that you had been an atheist, and "pondered pretty much the same questions"... and then go on and make a rambling post that shows not a hint of these questions we might have asked, or the conclusions we might have found... I don't believe you.

I won't deny that you have been an "atheist"... many people have varying definitions of what that terms means, and what it means to them. Definitions I for myself might disagree with.

But I think I can definitly say that you have never been an atheist like I am an atheist. And if the rest of your post is meant in any way to explain why you changed or how this answers your questions, I can also definitly say: you have no clue about atheists like me.

Well I can say I mocked Christians and God even cursing God with mock preaching and I tried to suck all the life I could out of them .. Kinda like beating up harmless girl scouts ..

 

[Freodin]

Well I can say I mocked Christians and God even cursing God with mock preaching and I tried to suck all the life I could out of them .. Kinda like beating up harmless girl scouts ..

I am aware how "ex-atheist" Christians usually portray their former position. It is a common narrative in the evangelical scene: the worse you (allegedly) were, the more impressive your "conversion", the higher your status now.

And nothing of that gives any hint to the questions you have (allegedly) asked, and the questions I have (and still do) ask, and the conclusions we drew/draw from that.

I mean no offence, but what you are doing here is telling us: "Hey, I have been where you are, and I have changed due to (something that only makes sense if you held that position already before, but which makes no sense had you really been where you claim)."

I can't find an ounce of reason for "conversion" in your post, and I seriously cannot understand how you - as a former atheist who asked the same questions - would think what you said should have any relevance for us.

 

[Strathos]

Funny how atheists always complain when Christians claim that those who deconverted from Christianity were never really Christians in the first place, but they do the same thing and claim that those who converted from atheism were never really true atheists.

 

[4x4toy]

I am aware how "ex-atheist" Christians usually portray their former position. It is a common narrative in the evangelical scence: the worse you (allegedly) were, the more impressive your "converstion", the higher your status now.

And nothing of that gives any hint to the question you have (allegedly) asked, and the questions I have (and still do) ask, and the conclusions we drew/draw from that.

I mean no offence, but what you are doing here is telling us: "Hey, I have been where you are, and I have changed due to (something that only makes sense if you held that position already before, but which makes no sense had you really been where you claim)."

I can't find an ounce of reason for "conversion" in your post, and I seriously cannot understand how you - as a former atheist who asked the same questions - would think what you said should have any relevance for us.

A very common reply , and if you ever experience conversion I will rejoice for and with you .. Peace Bro ..

 

[bhsmte]

The problem isn't responding-it is responding only to be told by the same individuals that they don't understand. So since I am being asked to tell these individuals over and over the same thing only to have them say they don't understand, I will simply not participate in this thread. That should solve the problem.

BTW
These persons have been told on other threads what my position in reference to ID is and STILL insist that I repeat myself. I am not a machine. It comes across as an effort to annoy.

Nothing go do with people not understanding and everything to do with your arguments not even coming close to supporting your claims. Google, cognitive dissonance.

 

[4x4toy]

Hi Dave . I was an Atheist and pondered pretty much the same questions as you . We are born to die . Along the way we live , so we exist . Can it be reasonable to assume God exists too ? That was one of the last questions I asked myself as an Atheist . So I heard testimony of people I knew before they got saved and changed . So I began to wonder if maybe there was something about all the millions of people who became Christians . Was I that much more intelligent than those folks to know better than God ? I was humbled at the thought of my arrogance .. Now if you were rich and a woman put on the show and married you for your money but didn't love you or cared, you're headed for trouble . But God seeks people who love him , so if we went by any thing but faith then thieves would sneak in . We are given a choice on purpose , free will to love God and his ways as demonstrated by Jesus or not on an even playing field .. If people knew there was hell waiting on them they would line up for God but the way God set it up is you must love the idea or reject .. If you accept the gift then you grow testimony of the truth .. As far as worshiping God goes , we are creatures who are made to worship and Jesus is worthy, kinda like a job and duty , far from vanity .. Jesus spoke of a woman who washed his feet with her tears and dried them with her hair , God knows I love that kindness showed to my Savior .. The man was obedient to death for us to save us ..

Thanx ..

 

[Freodin]

Funny how atheists always complain when Christians claim that those who deconverted from Christianity were never really Christians in the first place, but they do the same thing and claim that those who converted from atheism were never really true atheists.

Reading comprehension, dear Strathos, reading comprehension.

Case in point:

I won't deny that you have been an "atheist"... many people have varying definitions of what that terms means, and what it means to them. Definitions I for myself might disagree with.

But I think I can definitly say that you have never been an atheist like I am an atheist.

I would never claim that I am a "true" atheist, or that someone who doesn't believe like I do cannot be a "true" atheist. Atheism can be reduced to a very specific position within a very complex topic.
But obviously I can say that these persons are "doing atheism" very differently from how I do it.

So, try to understand the difference first before you slander atheists the next time.

 

[Dave RP]

Funny how atheists always complain when Christians claim that those who deconverted from Christianity were never really Christians in the first place, but they do the same thing and claim that those who converted from atheism were never really true atheists.

I do not hold those views. I know of only one Christian who lost their faith and I can confirm that they were a "true" Christian for many many years, but after the break up of his marriage he slowly lost his faith, and it was very painful for him. Personally I only know of one ex atheist who became a Christian, but I don't really know the full back story. He moved to the US, and then when I saw him 5 years later he was a Christian. He certainly seemed happy, and I know he had some significant issues with drug misuse historically so maybe Christianity helped him to get over those issues. I strongly believe that religion is a personal thing and can only be felt in the heart, those who truly believe do not do so from any logically analysis, but because they, in their heart of hearts, believe in god and that they have a personal relationship with their god. Good luck to them I say, but I do feel that these feelings should be kept personal and not thrust down other peoples throats.

 

[4x4toy]

I do not hold those views. I know of only one Christian who lost their faith and I can confirm that they were a "true" Christian for many many years, but after the break up of his marriage he slowly lost his faith, and it was very painful for him. Personally I only know of one ex atheist who became a Christian, but I don't really know the full back story. He moved to the US, and then when I saw him 5 years later he was a Christian. He certainly seemed happy, and I know he had some significant issues with drug misuse historically so maybe Christianity helped him to get over those issues. I strongly believe that religion is a personal thing and can only be felt in the heart, those who truly believe do not do so from any logically analysis, but because they, in their heart of hearts, believe in god and that they have a personal relationship with their god. Good luck to them I say, but I do feel that these feelings should be kept personal and not thrust down other peoples throats.

Why are you on a Christian Forum ?

 

[Freodin]

A very common reply , and if you ever experience conversion I will rejoice for and with you .. Peace Bro ..

I have high hopes that if I ever "experience conversation", I will have three things:
- The sources to demonstrate my former atheistic positions and questions - sources like this forum, where some 15 years of my thoughts are documented.
- A slew of reasonable explanations why I changed these positions and how my questions were either answered or shown to have been irrelevant.
- The integrity not to misrepresent my former position solely from my new interpretation.

 

[quatona]

Funny how atheists always complain when Christians claim that those who deconverted from Christianity were never really Christians in the first place, but they do the same thing and claim that those who converted from atheism were never really true atheists.

Except....nobody did that.

 

[quatona]

Why are you on a Christian Forum ?

Do you feel we shouldn´t be here?