The stumbling block for atheists.

[Radrook]

How many times have you tried to evidence your intelligent designer by pointing to the fact that scientists don't know how life originated? At least 10, by my count.

That is a blatant lie since my belief in an ID, as I repeatedly explain but to no avail, isn't based on your supposed inability to detect how life originated. Lying is a Devil-like characteristic.
John 8:44

 

[KCfromNC]

How do you know about the undetectable light spectrum if it cannot be detected by the senses?

By repeatable measurements using various scientific devices. Come on, have you really never heard of an X-Ray machine?

 

[KCfromNC]

Strawman since I am not against theistic evolution.

You accept the versions which dismiss ID as non-scientific?

Also, tagging things as natural doesn't nullify the evidence of a planning mind.

What evidence is that?

 

[Radrook]

By repeatable measurements using various scientific devices. Come on, have you really never heard of an X-Ray machine?

Ultimately the senses MUST be employed in order to gain knowledge.

 

[Radrook]

You accept the versions which dismiss ID as non-scientific?



What evidence is that?

Again!

I am not arguing against the concept of an intelligent designer employing whatever method he chooses to organize a process leading to the creation of living things. What I do not accept is that the whole process created itself mindlessly and mindlessly led to the production of such a thing as the human brain among other such things.

Please don't ask me the same question again on another thread.

 

[Ana the Ist]

How do you know about the undetectable light spectrum if it cannot be detected by the senses?

We have machines that can detect it.

I'm gonna take a wild guess and say you don't have any machines that detect miracles?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ultimately the senses MUST be employed in order to gain knowledge.

According to the poster, miracles can't be detected by the senses.

 

[Michael]

How do miracles "appear" if, according to you, they cannot be detected by the senses?

Presumably the same way that "dark energy" and "dark matter" miraculously appear in the sky yet cannot be detected directly by the senses, or in labs here on Earth?

"Science" has never limited itself to things that can be directly detected by our senses, as M-theory can attest.

 

[Michael]

According to the poster, miracles can't be detected by the senses.

In that case, inflation, quantum theories of gravity, and SUSY theories must be a "miracles".

 

[Michael]

Even if "miracles" can't be directly detected in the lab, or directly by human senses, the "effect" of said "miracle" (inflation) might be detectable.

 

[Speedwell]

I am not arguing against the concept of an intelligent designer employing whatever method he chooses to organize a process leading to the creation of living things.

Yet you have embraced and argue for a specific ID model and are less than friendly to theists who see it some other way.

What I do not accept is that the whole process created itself mindlessly and mindlessly led to the production of such a thing as the human brain among other such things.

You don't accept it, but there are very many--including Christians and other theistic evolutionists--who do accept it for what they consider to be sound scientific and mathematical reasons. If you are going to convince them of the correctness of your view you are going to have to come up with something more. How does the "design" get into the objects? When the "designer" shows up periodically to nudge evolution along, how does that look, exactly?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Presumably the same way that "dark energy" and "dark matter" miraculously appear in the sky yet cannot be detected directly by the senses, or in labs here on Earth?

"Science" has never limited itself to things that can be directly detected by our senses, as M-theory can attest.

I'm afraid I'm not knowledgeable enough on dark matter to get what you're saying....

If you're saying miracles are detected in the same manner as dark matter....then how is dark matter detected?

 

[Ana the Ist]

In that case, inflation, quantum theories of gravity, and SUSY theories must be a "miracles".

I'm assuming that the poster meant "things done directly by god" as miracles. I'm not sure that a "theory" of any kind would qualify.

 

[Radrook]

Yet you have embraced and argue for a specific ID model and are less than friendly to theists who see it some other way.You don't accept it, but there are very many--including Christians and other theistic evolutionists--who do accept it for what they consider to be sound scientific and mathematical reasons. If you are going to convince them of the correctness of your view you are going to have to come up with something more. How does the "design" get into the objects? When the "designer" shows up periodically to nudge evolution along, how does that look, exactly?

As I said, I am not challenging theistic evolution nor arguing against it. I am merely proposing that the inference of intelligent design ion nature is a totally justifiable one. No, I am not attempting to convince theistic evolutionists to abandon their particular views. To me it's sufficient that their views include an intelligent designer.

BTW
The explanation about how evolution works within the theistic parameters belongs to the theistic evolutionists who propose it.

 

[Speedwell]

To me it's sufficient that their views include an intelligent designer.

But in general they do not. My impression is that the theistic evolutionist community is at odds with the ID community. Certainly I can be considered a theistic evolutionist and I have no use whatever for ID.

 

[Strathos]

Again!

I am not arguing against the concept of an intelligent designer employing whatever method he chooses to organize a process leading to the creation of living things. What I do not accept is that the whole process created itself mindlessly and mindlessly led to the production of such a thing as the human brain among other such things.

Please don't ask me the same question again on another thread.

Perhaps an analogy is in order. Consider prophecies, such as those in the Bible. Just because a prophecy is destined to be fulfilled doesn't mean that the people involved in fulfilling it don't have free will and make their own independent decisions to arrive at that point.

In the same manner, just because God always planned for humans and human civilization to exist, that doesn't mean that He didn't use natural processes to create them, with many different factors and possibilities along the way. Yet God knows how it will end up.

 

[Radrook]

Perhaps an analogy is in order. Consider prophecies, such as those in the Bible. Just because a prophecy is destined to be fulfilled doesn't mean that the people involved in fulfilling it don't have free will and make their own independent decisions to arrive at that point.

In the same manner, just because God always planned for humans and human civilization to exist, that doesn't mean that He didn't use natural processes to create them, with many different factors and possibilities along the way. Yet God knows how it will end up.

Again!

I am not arguing against the concept of an intelligent designer employing whatever method he chooses to organize a process leading to the creation of living things. What I do not accept is that the whole process created itself mindlessly and mindlessly led to the production of such a thing as the human brain among other such things.

Please don't ask me the same question again on another thread.

 

[Strathos]

Again!

I am not arguing against the concept of an intelligent designer employing whatever method he chooses to organize a process leading to the creation of living things. What I do not accept is that the whole process created itself mindlessly and mindlessly led to the production of such a thing as the human brain among other such things.

Please don't ask me the same question again on another thread.

No one is claiming that the process 'created itself'.

 

[Radrook]

No one is claiming that the process 'created itself'.

Atheists don't exist?

 

[Radrook]

fits all the necessary prerequisites fot the miraculous

Presumably the same way that "dark energy" and "dark matter" miraculously appear in the sky yet cannot be detected directly by the senses, or in labs here on Earth?
M-theory can attest.

Funny how it's only miraculous when they say it's miraculous. The Big Bang which meets all the prerequisites for the miraculous isn't even called miraculous. Instead the words "unimaginable" "spectacular" "mind boggling" are cunningly preferred in order to avoid giving the "wrong" impression.