The stumbling block for atheists.

[dad]

Judas chose to betray Jesus, but the Bible says, quite explicitly, that his choice was foreordained by God.

God knew it would happen. Did God stop David from killing Bathsheba's husband? No. Will He stop the AntiChrist from ruling? No. If there was no free choice, that would swing both ways...good or evil.

 

[dad]

This indicates that you don't understand the difference between foreknowledge and hindsight, and the implications of that difference.

Knowing what will happen does not mean we make it that way. It means we know.

Logic is not mathematics. Your 'calculation' is meaningless.

Yours kinda sucks too.

Another irrelevant example that misses the point. It's beginning to look like deliberate obfuscation.

I do not see how seeing the future means we overrode free will and orchestrated it all that way.

 

[dad]

Did God know if you would be saved before He created the universe? Could God have created a universe where that outcome would be different?

Could you walk across the USA, and then swim till you died in the Atlantic ocean? We do not need to do everything we 'could' do! Otherwise you might stab yourself in the eye with a fork.

 

[lesliedellow]

God knew it would happen. Did God stop David from killing Bathsheba's husband? No. Will He stop the AntiChrist from ruling? No. If there was no free choice, that would swing both ways...good or evil.

Was the crucifixion part of God's plan?

Did he just leave it to chance whether or not somebody would betray Jesus?

Like it or not, predestination is both explicit and implicit in Christianity.

 

[Gene Parmesan]

Could you walk across the USA, and then swim till you died in the Atlantic ocean? We do not need to do everything we 'could' do! Otherwise you might stab yourself in the eye with a fork.

You can directly answer my questions. They aren't that difficult.

Did God know if you would be saved before He created the universe? Could God have created a universe where that outcome would be different?

 

[dad]

Was the crucifixion part of God's plan?

Did he just leave it to chance whether or not somebody would betray Jesus?

Like it or not, predestination is both explicit and implicit in Christianity.

No. Just because Judas was susceptible to sin and Satan as a weak link, does not mean God made him do it. Jesus knew about it. But He knew everything! Jesus said after Satan entered Judas due to a choice Judas made, what THOU doest, do quickly. Satan cannot possess anyone if they chose Jesus.

 

[dad]

You can directly answer my questions. They aren't that difficult.

So could you. Could God make another universe? You kidding? That was a weeks work. But He made this one.

 

[lesliedellow]

No. Just because Judas was susceptible to sin and Satan as a weak link, does not mean God made him do it. Jesus knew about it. But He knew everything! Jesus said after Satan entered Judas due to a choice Judas made, what THOU doest, do quickly. Satan cannot possess anyone if they chose Jesus.

Did God intend Judas to betray Jesus, or was the crucifixion a major calamity for God, which he had to tray and put right as best he could?

 

[dad]

Did God intend Judas to betray Jesus, or was the crucifixion a major calamity for God, which he had to tray and put right as best he could?

He knows the heart of man, and what would happen. That doesn't mean we do not actually chose.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

Knowing what will happen does not mean we make it that way.

I didn't say it did.

I do not see how seeing the future means we overrode free will and orchestrated it all that way.

Me neither. The point is that if you correctly know someone's future action, then by definition, they cannot do otherwise. It doesn't necessarily mean that you determine that, it simply means that the action is inevitable.

 

[dad]

The point is that if you correctly know someone's future action, then by definition, they cannot do otherwise. It doesn't necessarily mean that you determine that, it simply means that the action is inevitable.

That is above our paygrade. What we do know is that we have the choice. How God knows the future we don't know. To Him, it is known. To us, it is open. We have the real ability to chose. To us it is not inevitable.

 

[FrumiousBandersnatch]

That is above our paygrade. What we do know is that we have the choice. How God knows the future we don't know. To Him, it is known. To us, it is open. We have the real ability to chose. To us it is not inevitable.

Ah, the GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways) defence - faith trumps reason and logic...

So much for reasoned argument.

 

[durangodawood]

That is above our paygrade......

I agree with this.

Its silly how people insist that statements about God should make sense.

 

[bhsmte]

Ah, the GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways) defence - faith trumps reason and logic...

So much for reasoned argument.

Ever notice, when some interpret anything good as being directly because of God, but when something bad happens, they say; who can figure out God's intentions?

 

[dad]

Ah, the GWIMW (God Works In Mysterious Ways) defence - faith trumps reason and logic...

So much for reasoned argument.

Man has limited ability to reason. We cannot limit God. We cannot deny free choice. All through the bible it is about choosing. We cannot say that God did not allow choice just because He knows what it will be.

 

[dad]

I agree with this.

Its silly how people insist that statements about God should make sense.

Love makes sense. God is love.

 

[durangodawood]

Love makes sense. God is love.

Perhaps that aspect of God is not above our pay grade.

Other aspects clearly are beyond our reckoning, at least according to you and many other Christians. But I would expect that certain statements about God would be true yet not sensible.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I realize that the so-called lack of evidence is a popular explanation, but I'm trying to get at the root cause.

It's called original sin.

 

[dad]

Perhaps that aspect of God is not above our pay grade.

Other aspects clearly are beyond our reckoning, at least according to you and many other Christians. But I would expect that certain statements about God would be true yet not sensible.

OK. To the natural mind the things of God and the spirit are often counter intuitive.

 

[lesliedellow]

No. Just because Judas was susceptible to sin and Satan as a weak link, does not mean God made him do it. Jesus knew about it. But He knew everything! Jesus said after Satan entered Judas due to a choice Judas made, what THOU doest, do quickly. Satan cannot possess anyone if they chose Jesus.

You did not answer the question, although it ie esy to understand why. So I will try again:

Was the crucifixion and ressurection God intended to happen?

Did he leave it to chance?