The study of 1 Enoch should not be placed in the Unorthodox Theology Forum

[SummaScriptura]

In the past when I have posted regarding connections between the Bible and 1 Enoch, my posts have been moved to the "Unorthodox Theology" Forum.

Am I the only one who thinks that should not be done? 1 Enoch is in the biblical canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, so in what manner is it to be considered "unorthodox"?

 

[Nilloc]

In the past when I have posted regarding connections between the Bible and 1 Enoch, my posts have been moved to the "Unorthodox Theology" Forum.

Am I the only one who thinks that should not be done? 1 Enoch is in the biblical canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, so in what manner is it to be considered "unorthodox"?

I agree that Enoch should be allowed to be discussed in the orthodox boards.

Perhaps the reason why some of them have been moved to the unorthodox board is because Enoch has been used by people who practice "magic" or some sort of witchcraft religion.

On the back of the translation I have, the genre of the book even says "Prophecy/Magic".

 

[SummaScriptura]

I agree that Enoch should be allowed to be discussed in the orthodox boards.

Perhaps the reason why some of them have been moved to the unorthodox board is because Enoch has been used by people who practice "magic" or some sort of witchcraft religion.

On the back of the translation I have, the genre of the book even says "Prophecy/Magic".

I have that edition too.

During the past 100 years since the Church has not been much interested in 1 Enoch, occultists have tried to appropriate the book to their uses.

Try as one might though, there is nothing in the book related to magic or the occult or a gnostic outlook. This is because the book was informed from another tradition, not an occult or gnostic one.

The more the books "secrets" become not secrets but shown as being in line with biblical truth, the more this incorrect classification should lessen.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Originally Posted by Gojira69 In the past when I have posted regarding connections between the Bible and 1 Enoch, my posts have been moved to the "Unorthodox Theology" Forum.

Am I the only one who thinks that should not be done? 1 Enoch is in the biblical canon of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, so in what manner is it to be considered "unorthodox"?

Has that changed since then?

 

[SummaScriptura]

Has that changed since then?

Apparently it has given the "live" status of numerous 1 Enoch threads that were not moved.

 

[Dale]

Why would anyone take Secrets of Enoch seriously?

To believe that Secrets of Enoch is a book of the Bible, you have to believe that it was written by the Enoch of Genesis before he was taken up into heaven. Noah must have carried a copy on the Ark.

Secrets of Enoch implies that God has a physical body and says that the Earth is less than 6,000 years old. Further, the Garden of Eden is orbiting between the Earth and the Moon, and so is the place of torment for mortals. I assume that Eden and the place of torment are invisible since we don't see them. Or maybe Eden is orbiting halfway between the Earth and the Sun. The author of Secrets of Enoch labors under the delusion that the Moon and the Sun are the same distance from Earth.

I don't know much about the beliefs of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church but I suggest they remove Secrets of Enoch from their Canon.

*

*

 

[SummaScriptura]

Why would anyone take Secrets of Enoch seriously?

To believe that Secrets of Enoch is a book of the Bible, you have to believe that it was written by the Enoch of Genesis before he was taken up into heaven. Noah must have carried a copy on the Ark.

Secrets of Enoch implies that God has a physical body and says that the Earth is less than 6,000 years old. Further, the Garden of Eden is orbiting between the Earth and the Moon, and so is the place of torment for mortals. I assume that Eden and the place of torment are invisible since we don't see them. Or maybe Eden is orbiting halfway between the Earth and the Sun. The author of Secrets of Enoch labors under the delusion that the Moon and the Sun are the same distance from Earth.

I don't know much about the beliefs of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church but I suggest they remove Secrets of Enoch from their Canon.

*

*

You're confused.

This thread is about 1 Enoch (notice the header), not the Secrets of Enoch, nor is it about Gone with the Wind.

 

[Dale]

Summa Scriptura:
"You're confused.

This thread is about 1 Enoch (notice the header), not the Secrets of Enoch, nor is it about Gone with the Wind. "

The full title is The Book of The Secrets of Enoch, and it is the same as 1 Enoch.

*

*

 

[Dale]

Here is what the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about the Ethiopian Church and the scriptures they use.


"Although converted to Christianity by missionaries of the Catholic Church, Ethiopia today professes Monophysitism. But subject to the influence of Egypt, it has adopted in the course of time the theory of the Egyptian Church regarding the human nature of Christ."


In other words, the Ethiopian Church is part of what the RCC calls the Monophysite heresy, they deny the Divinity of Christ.

"The Ethiopian Hierarchy is subject to the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria. This dependence on the Coptic Church is regulated by one of the Arabic canons found in the Coptic edition of the Council of Nicea. "


On the Bible used by this church:

"Its canon, too, is practically unsettled and fluctuating. A host of apocryphal or falsely ascribed writings are placed on the same level as the inspired books, among the most esteemed of which we may mention the Book of Henoch [alternate spelling of Enoch], the Kufale, or Little Genesis, the Book of the Mysteries of Heaven and Earth, the Combat of Adam and Eve, the Ascension of Isaias. "


Click here: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ethiopia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05566a.htm


*

*

 

[Musa80]

Here is what the New Advent Catholic Encyclopedia has to say about the Ethiopian Church and the scriptures they use.


"Although converted to Christianity by missionaries of the Catholic Church, Ethiopia today professes Monophysitism. But subject to the influence of Egypt, it has adopted in the course of time the theory of the Egyptian Church regarding the human nature of Christ."


In other words, the Ethiopian Church is part of what the RCC calls the Monophysite heresy, they deny the Divinity of Christ.

"The Ethiopian Hierarchy is subject to the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria. This dependence on the Coptic Church is regulated by one of the Arabic canons found in the Coptic edition of the Council of Nicea. "


On the Bible used by this church:

"Its canon, too, is practically unsettled and fluctuating. A host of apocryphal or falsely ascribed writings are placed on the same level as the inspired books, among the most esteemed of which we may mention the Book of Henoch [alternate spelling of Enoch], the Kufale, or Little Genesis, the Book of the Mysteries of Heaven and Earth, the Combat of Adam and Eve, the Ascension of Isaias. "


Click here: CATHOLIC ENCYCLOPEDIA: Ethiopia

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05566a.htm


*

*

Firstly, SummaScriptura is correct. You seem to be confusing two very different books. The things you described in your previous post are not part of 1 Enoch at all. Second, the New Advent site is old and a bit unreliable on some things. The monophysite claim is a really old misunderstanding. The Copts do not deny the divinity of Christ at all.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Summa Scriptura:
"You're confused.

This thread is about 1 Enoch (notice the header), not the Secrets of Enoch, nor is it about Gone with the Wind. "

The full title is The Book of The Secrets of Enoch, and it is the same as 1 Enoch.

*

*

Sorry, Dale, you're wrong.

Sadly, its not an uncommon understanding and I don't fault you for it. There is a lot of confusing and contradictory information about the history of the Book of Enoch (aka 1 Enoch, aka Ethiopic Enoch) 1 Enoch is the one attested to at the Dead Sea Scroll caves; it is the one attested to in the New Testament and in the writings of the ECFs. The problem I have with the "Secrets of Enoch" is though it is probably very old, it is not attested to in any 2nd Temple Jewish contexts. Also, no ECF refers to it, so I think it was written later than the time of Christ and the Apostles.

 

[SummaScriptura]

On another note, this thread should probably be allowed to die. I think it has been established the CF no longer moves threads concerning 1 Enoch to the Unorthodox Theology forum. If a mod should wish to lock it, that's fine by me.

 

[Siyha]

Sorry, I just can't let it die without poking at it a little more, in the hopes of understanding myself how the mods work here.

Most Christian traditions hold to the same standard canon, so going against that canon may be considered unorthodox.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Sorry, I just can't let it die without poking at it a little more, in the hopes of understanding myself how the mods work here.

Most Christian traditions hold to the same standard canon, so going against that canon may be considered unorthodox.

To which of the standard canons do you refer?

 

[&Abel]

I can't even believe what most christians are missing with 1 Enoch

I find new ways that it syncs with scripture practically everytime I use it for quotes

according to jubilees(which was found with 1 Enoch amongst the dead sea scrolls) Enoch was the first person with the ability to write therefore making his words the first scripture that ever existed

 

[SummaScriptura]

I can't even believe what most christians are missing with 1 Enoch

I find new ways that it syncs with scripture practically everytime I use it for quotes<snip>

Sometimes I get the impression with TBOE that its as if the entire OT was taken and shaken together and reassembled in a different order. Except that there are no Mosaic references whatsoever. Not even a mention of the Sabbath. Try to imagine a book of the Bible not informed by Moses and that gives you a feel for Enoch. And isn't that exactly what you'd expect from scripture ostensibly written before the flood?

Where the historical-critical folks go wrong is right here...

By incorrectly dating TBOE to a few centuries before Christ, scholars postulate the preposterous idea that there must have been a non-Mosaic brand of Judaism competing with the mainstream variety. Of course this is not even a problem if one dated the book from before the flood.

 

[SummaScriptura]

Sorry, I just can't let it die without poking at it a little more, in the hopes of understanding myself how the mods work here.

Most Christian traditions hold to the same standard canon, so going against that canon may be considered unorthodox.

To which of the standard canons do you refer?

Siyha, have you decided yet to which of the standard canons you are referring?

By the way, if you are using a Bible with only 66-books in it, please do not speak of any of the "standard canons" because there never was a canon of the Bible established by any communion of Christianity that laid down a canonical list of 66-books of the Bible.

So, which canon are you referring to?

 

[a_ntv]

Why would anyone take Secrets of Enoch seriously?

To believe that Secrets of Enoch is a book of the Bible, you have to believe that it was written by the Enoch of Genesis before he was taken up into heaven. Noah must have carried a copy on the Ark.

Secrets of Enoch implies that God has a physical body and says that the Earth is less than 6,000 years old. Further, the Garden of Eden is orbiting between the Earth and the Moon, and so is the place of torment for mortals. I assume that Eden and the place of torment are invisible since we don't see them. Or maybe Eden is orbiting halfway between the Earth and the Sun. The author of Secrets of Enoch labors under the delusion that the Moon and the Sun are the same distance from Earth.

I don't know much about the beliefs of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church but I suggest they remove Secrets of Enoch from their Canon.

Don't confuse the "Book of Enoch" (or "1 Enoch") with the "Secrets of Enoch" (or "Slavonic Enoch" or "2 Enoch")

1 Enoch was quoted as authoritative scripture in the Letter of Jude and there is little doubt that 1 Enoch was influential in molding New Testament doctrines about the Messiah, demonology, the resurrection, and eschatology. (2 Enoch is not as important as 1 Enoch, but it is nevertheless a very interesting 1 century text).

Further, 1 Enoch is considered as canonical scripture in the Ethiopian Church. It is part of the Bible for this Christian church. I suppose we shall respect all the Christian denominations (and the Ethiopian Church is for sure Christian).

By the way, 1 Enoch is a mystical text. None read it literally. For example it is considered a base text in the Jewish mysticism.

 

[a_ntv]

Do you know that in 1En10:12 there is a prophecy about the end of end of the times that will happens 70 generations after the food (i.e. Enoch time)?

Now if we read the genealogy of Christ in Luke, we found exactly 70 generations from Enoch to Jesus.

Because of we have the papyrus proof that such part of 1Enoch was written no later the 2 century B.C., for sure Luke knew and used 1Enoch in writing his Gospel (or 1Enoch is inspired because its prophecy is true)

 

[SummaScriptura]

When I made serendipitous discovery of that wonderous book known as The Book of Enoch, in September, 2006. I began asking God to show me whether I should receive that book as from Him. Specifically, I wondered if there were something of the prophetic to be found in its pages that would demonstrate the touch of the divine upon this book. Very soon I made a wonderful discovery in its pages.

In Enoch 10:11-15, we find the following prophecy, "And the Lord said unto Michael: 'Go, bind Semjaza and his associates who have united themselves with women so as to have defiled themselves with them in all their uncleanness. And when their sons have slain one another, and they have seen the destruction of their beloved ones, bind them fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth, till the day of their judgment and of their consummation, till the judgment that is for ever and ever is consummated. In those days they shall be led off to the abyss of fire: and to the torment and the prison in which they shall be confined for ever. And whosoever shall be condemned and destroyed will from thenceforth be bound together with them to the end of all generations."

It should be kept in mind that chapter 10 of Enoch is in the first section of the book, a section, upon which scholars agree, predates the Christian era.

In Luke 3:23-38, we have the genealogy of Jesus Christ. When one counts 70 generations from the time the command went forth in the days of Methuselah, to "bind [the sinning angels] fast for seventy generations in the valleys of the earth," it comes exactly to the generation of Jesus! Here we have a specific point of agreement between the New Testament and the exact prophecy found in the Book of Enoch, a book indisputably from antiquity. The prophecy was made that after 70 generations the judgment of the angels who had sinned would come to pass. If we believe the scripture proper, we believe that He who 'came to destroy the works of the devil' was born exactly 70 generations after Methuselah per Luke's gospel. The death of Jesus had a specific result that applied to the demonic forces in the world. Per Colossians 2:13-15, "God made [us] alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses, by canceling the record of debt that stood against us with its legal demands. This he set aside, nailing it to the cross. He disarmed the rulers and authorities and put them to open shame, by triumphing over them in him." (ESV)

It may be apparent then that the 'rulers and authorities' in heavenly places of which Paul writes were persuaded the condemnation of the sinning angels was imminent and they needed to get rid of the Son of God in order to frustrate the prophecy in Enoch's book. However, God had a hidden purpose in mind, 1 Corinthians 2:7-8, states, "But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory." The very thing intended by the "rulers of this age" to stop the plan of God was used to make that plan come to fruition.

The question may arise in the reader's mind, "how is it the final judgment of the angels prophesied by Enoch has not yet occurred?" A portion of the promise God made to the serpent in the garden has indeed been fulfilled; "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her offspring; he shall bruise your head, and you shall bruise his heel." (Gen. 3:15). Jesus, the 'seed of the woman' had been 'bruised in the heel' i.e., "hurt but recovered". By rising from the dead, Jesus triumphed over them. The time yet remains that Jesus, the 70th from Methuselah, will return and the remainder of that promise, "he will bruise your head" i.e., "hurt without recovery" will just as assuredly be fulfilled. Genesis 3:15 has been followed by John 3:16. Jesus has taken his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high from whence he shall come again. The 70th generation is the one in which the sinning angels are judged, because the One born 70th from Methuselah lives still! We are even now within the generation in which the angels will be finally and utterly condemned. And His word of encouragement to us is true, for, "The God of peace will soon crush Satan under your feet." (Rom. 16:20)

&#169; 2007 Bob Burns

From Luke 3:
1 Methuselah
2 Lamech
3 Noah
4 Shem
5 Arphaxad
6 Cainan
7 Shelah
8 Eber
9 Peleg
10 Reu
11 Serug
12 Nahor
13 Terah
14 Abraham
15 Isaac
16 Jacob
17 Judah
18 Perez
19 Hezron
20 Arni
21 Admin
22 Amminadab
23 Nahshon
24 Sala
25 Boaz
26 Obed
27 Jesse
28 David
29 Nathan
30 Mattatha
31 Menna
32 Melea
33 Eliakim
34 Jonam
35 Joseph
36 Judah
37 Simeon
38 Levi
39 Matthat
40 Jorim
41 Eliezer
42 Joshua
43 Er
44 Elmadam
45 Cosam
46 Addi
47 Melchi
48 Neri
49 Shealtiel
50 Zerubbabel
51 Rhesa
52 Joanan
53 Joda
54 Josech
55 Semein
56 Mattathias
57 Maath
58 Naggai
59 Esli
60 Nahum
61 Amos
62 Mattathias
63 Joseph
64 Jannai
65 Melchi
66 Levi
67 Matthat
68 Heli
69 Joseph
70 Jesus