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And they were punished forever. And not just them, but the entirety of humanity. What justice is there in punishing everyone for the crime of two.
Yep. He provides us all a way out of a punisment imposed onto all of us by God for a crime that two people who never existed (simple reasoning reveals this) committed.
Can't argue with this. Condemnation to burn in eternal fire is certainly not compatible with the notion of a loving God.
To my limited mind, of course.
This is an interesting point to me. God only reveals himself to those who truly seek him. Therefore, if he did not reveal himself to you, you were not truly seeking him. Do you see the problem I'm having? It sounds to me like the No True Scotsman fallacy. If you didn't find him, it's because you weren't looking hard enough, not because he's not there.
You've just revealed the whole problem. Parents didn't program their children to disobey. As you say, we're born that way. We have desires and impulses that cause us to stray occasionally. God doesn't have hthat excuse. He made us! Any flaws in our being are manifestly his fault. If Adam and Eve had not been made with the curiosity to eat the fruit, God wouldn't have had to forbid it to them.
This is something I came here to understand. How can believers be satisfied with not knowing that their beliefs are true?
It is very important to me that my beliefs are true. That's why I'm so interested in science. Science produces knowledge that we an rely upon almost without question, because it is supported by experiment. Further, errors and weaknesses are sure to be ferreted out by other scientists seeking grant money and a name for themselves. It's a self-correcting mechanism that leads to a closer grasp of the truth with every turn of the dial.
What is the basis of a believer's certainty?
I've never heard of any ... and I've looked for it fairly thoroughly.There actually is a substantial amount of evidence for the life of Jesus
I suspect that your definition of 'adequate' and mine would differ substantially....and adequate evidence (IMHO) for the resurrection.
Why is this an argument in favour of faith? Why would anyone want to believe 'what seems like foolishness'?Ultimately...even though the available evidence may not be sufficient for some...it still takes faith to believe what seems like foolishness.
Andreusz said:Why is this an argument in favour of faith? Why would anyone want to believe 'what seems like foolishness'?
Ahhh...thank you. The problem with the question is assuming "omnipresent" means nothing else can exist.
I think by St.Asia's follow-up statement that he/she doesn't think that your God is omnipresent. It's hard to tell since the poster didn't use verbs.
Who do you think is assuming omnipresent means nothing else can exist?
St.Asia said that evil was the absence of God. How can something omnipresent be absent? That is my question.
An entity being omnipresent doesn't mean nothing else exists and that is the only way your conclusion may be true because you're using a false dilemma.
P1: God is omnipresent.
P2: Evil is the absence of. God.
C: God cannot be omnipresent because if that were true then evil could not exist.
Omnipresence doesn't mean that presence is the only entity in existence.
God not omniprescent for the Catholic.
{Bolding Added}Taking as the basis of classification the ways by which the attributes are developed, they are divided into positive and negative. Among the negative attributes are simplicity, infinity, immutability. The chief positive attributes are unity, truth, goodness, beauty, omnipotence omnipresence, intellect and will, personality. Some authors divide them into incommunicable and communicable. The former class comprises those which belong to God alone (e.g., all-wise, self-existent, omnipotent) to the latter belong those which are predicable, analogically, of God and creatures as good, just, intelligent. Again, the divine nature considered either as static or as the source activity; hence another division into quiescent and active. Finally, some perfections involve a relation to things distinct from God, while others do not; and from this standpoint theologians divide the attributes into absolute and relative. The various classifications adopted by modern Protestant theologians are due partly to the results of philosophical speculation and partly to new conceptions of the nature of religion. Schleiermacher, e.g., derives the attributes of God from our threefold consciousness of absolute dependence, of sin, and of grace. Others, with Lipsius, distinguish the metaphysical attributes from the psychological and the ethical. A simpler division groups omnipotence, omnipresence, eternity, omniscience, and unity as the metaphysical predicates, justice and goodness as the moral attributes. The fundamental attribute is, according to Ritschl, love; according to Professor Royce, omniscience. The main difficulty with these writers centres about the idea of God as a personal being.
Maybe no translate well into Khmer.
Example of paradox:
God is in all things by his power, inasmuch as all things are subject to his power; he is by his presence in all things, inasmuch as all things are bare and open to his eyes; he is in all things by his essence, inasmuch as he is present to all as the cause of their being (Summa Theologica I, 8, 3)
This is a good example of the debate. Though I cannot at present point to a specific author, many have asserted that it is not adequate to assert that God is present merely because of his knowledge.
I have a question about your original meaning. Did you mean 1) that anywhere God is not present there is evil, OR 2) that God's absence allows the possibility of evil?
Water is omnipresent in the Atlantic Ocean. Is water the only thing that exists in the ocean?
And a few questions.
1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.
2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.
Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?
3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.
4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.
Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?
5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.
6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.
7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.
Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?
Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?
8. In effect, god
a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.
b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.
c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.
Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?
*sigh*
One more time:
P1) God is omnipresent. This means God is everywhere. There is nowhere where God is not.
P2) Evil can only exist where God is not.
C) There is nowhere where evil can exist since there is no place where God is not.
To be clear, I don't think that P2 is correct. However, P1 is a given in Christian circles and P2 was what was presented by St.Asia. (C) follows, I think, from P1 and P2. Since Evil does exist and from a Christian perspective, P1 must be true, then P2 must be false.
The original statement by another person was P2. So where does God not exist?
Analogy didn't really work there.
What part about God being omnipresent doesn't mean "nothing else can exist" is confusing?
Harry Potter MOVIES? Oh no, please stick to the novels - they are WAAAAAAAAY better than their crappy Hollywood adaptations!If you watch any of the Harry Potter movies, I often see it as a Biblical metaphor.
No.
Yes
Have you read Hebrews 11?
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went forth to a place which he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went, although he did not know or trouble his mind about where he was to go. 9 By faith he dwelt as a temporary resident in the land which was designated in the promise in a strange country, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs with him of the same promise.
10 For he was looking forward to the city which has fixed and firm foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God.
13 These people all died controlled and sustained by their faith, but not having received the tangible fulfillment of [God's] promises, only having seen it and greeted it from a great distance by faith, and all the while acknowledging and confessing that they were strangers and temporary residents and exiles upon the earth.
14 Now those people who talk as they did show plainly that they are in search of a fatherland (their own country).
15 If they had been thinking with [homesick] remembrance of that country from which they were emigrants, they would have found constant opportunity to return to it.
16 But the truth is that they were yearning for and aspiring to a better and more desirable country, that is, a heavenly [one]. For that reason God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.
(AMP)
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