The story as I understand it

[Zaac]

Exactly. So if God didn't want us to do such things, why make us capable of them in the first place?

Again. Free will to choose. God couldn't very well give us free will and then limit our ability to choose to obey or disobey

Particularly when, in the case of Adam and Eve, he gave no forewarning of the fact that they were wrong

Sure He did. The Bible says 15 The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. 16 And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die." Genesis 2:15-17

The penalty was clear.

I think you're not quite getting my point. The point is that if he doesn't want us to do such things, why make us capable of them in the first place?

Again, for the same reason that you don't FORCE someone to love you

Why make us such that we would WANT to do them?

He didn't. He made us in His image: HOLY. Man CHOSE to disobey and became aware of right and wrong. It was only after that first sin that man wanted to do that which is wrong.

You might as well put a biscuit in front of a puppy and smack him when he starts to eat it.

That's why you train up a puppy in the way that he is to go. Once he yields to the authority of his master, he will eat when he is supposed to no matter what is placed in front of him.

OK, but you're not addressing my point. God wouldn't need to be a judge if he didn't make us capable of sinning in the first place.

So God should have prevented us from doing whatever we want to do? If He had done that, we wouldn't be able to CHOOSE to love Him.

If he loved us and didn't want us to suffer, why would he create a punishment to torment us for doing things that he made us enjoy doing and at the same time forbade?

He didn't make us to enjoy sinning. God created man in His image:HOLY. Absent of sin. Man CHOSE to sin and eat of the tree of the knowledge of right and wrong. It is after man ate of that tree that he came to enjoy doing the wrong things.

I can only see that as cruel.

What's cruel about letting you do what you want to do?Would you have wanted parents who didn't give you the ability to make choices?

I'm walking along. Someone sets a vase directly in front of me, so that I can't help but break it. Is it still my fault?

Why can't you help breaking it? You could have stopped or gone around it.

Yet according to Christianity, we are all born sinners. It doesn't matter if we've never moved a muscle or spoken a word, we still deserve to be punished. Isn't that right? And isn't it because of the sin of Adam and Eve?

They brought the capacity to know sin into the world. The punishment that we deserve, we deserve because of our own sin.

Do you mean because Jesus is actually God? Still, how can Jesus expect people to accept him when he hasn't revealed himself to them?

He reveals Himself all the time. Some folks just don't want to acknowledge that He does.

I wasn't asking about that. I was asking about why, if God hated sin so much, he would make us capable of it in the first place.

Because perfect love demands a choice be made to love instead of forced.

In case you were wondering, I said that Adam and Eve never existed because there was never a time when there were only two humans in existence. It's demonstrably impossible.

Not to the One Who created man.

Did what, love God?

Yep.

Then what's the problem?

They later CHOSE to disobey.

Hold on. Here's what's happening here. People have two choices: either love God, or burn forever in a lake of fire. And you're saying they're NOT forced to love him?

They aren't. Some would rather choose to burn in that Lake of Fire than choose to love God. If folks are so bent on not loving God that they would rather burn in a Lake of Fire for eternity, how is that forcing them?

He presents a way for them to NOT burn forever. They CHOOSE to reject that Way.

If you are paying forever, then you are not paying at all. It's not payment if there's no possibility of the payment ever being completed.

If the crime doesn't go away, why should the payment?

I made no such suggestion. I simply asked how a crime could be considered eternal.

If you sin against God, and God is eternal, why wouldn't an unforgiven crime not be eternal?

And that's why I hold the Abrahamic God to be entirely unloving. He created us with the will and desire to do things, and at the same time forbade those things on pain of eternal torment.

He gave you a way to avoid that eternal torment. If you reject it, how is that God's fault?

Here's an example. Let's say you have kids. You tell those kids that you love them, and that they are free to love you back, only if they do not you will lock them in the basement forever. And that there is fire and brimstone and crocodiles in the basement. Is that a loving action?

[/QUOTE]


And how will these kids demonstrate their love for you? If to stay upstairs in my presence, the kids have to demonstrate their love for me or be placed in the basement because they have not demonstrated their love for me, who has shown a lack of love, them or me? I gave them an opportunity. If they don't want it, what can I do other than separate them from me just as they have already been? If I can only have those who love me upstairs, then how would those who don't get to be anyplace but not upstairs?

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

If God is responsible for evil, it certainly doesn't change my moral obligation as to how I treat others. But it changes any obligation I might have to God. Why should I worship a diety who has even a taint of evil? How could I trust such a God with my salvation?

If God is responsible because we have been created with the free will affording evil acts then how can God be faulted for creating people? If we were created with no capacity for evil acts that would mean we would not have free will and ultimately mean God didn't create anything but toys on a string. It would also mean we wouldn't even have the ability to ponder the idea of God. At the end of the day, it is up to each individual to make their own choices because if God could be explained and proven like a mathematical equation then there would be no God.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Presumably that's directed to the one person who's posted here that had that definition of evil (absence of God).

Who is that person or where is that post? I haven't seen that claim stated in this thread.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

That's not the question. The question is that if these things are so abominable, why did God make us capable of them in the first place? And then why would he punish us for doing something that he made us capable of doing in the first place? It's like putting a delicate vase right in the path of a clumsy toddler and then punishing him for breaking it. It's entrapment.

Comparing adults with the knowledge of right and wrong with a clumsy toddler is highly intellectually dishonest.

As for the claim of "entrapment." Well, that's clearly looking for a scapegoat and trying to use the gift of free will as an excuse to not own our decisions and actions. You can't do whatever you want, knowing it is wrong, then use the get out of jail free card that says "God gave me the ability to do it so it's not my fault, it's God's fault."

Again, not the question. I asked why God punished all of humanity for the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus wasn't around then, was he?


And further, why are we being punished for the sin of people who never existed?

Guess this is evidence one doesn't have to be a Christian to act like a Christian Fundamentalist.

So God created a bunch of thinking beings with free will, in the hope that they would all start loving him? That would be lovely, accept that God punishes anyone who doesn't love him with eternal fire. Isn't that precisely the same as forcing people to love him?

God is not a blackmail artist. Again, this is trying to abdicate the responsibilities and consequences of our own actions.

What does that mean? How can a crime be infinite? It certainly isn't infinite in time, as a crime takes a finite amount of time to commit. It isn't infinite in detriment, because it harms a finite amount of people. In what possible way can a crime be infinite?

Well, if you murder someone that person has infinitely been removed from earth. (Insert Shrek smiley)

Guilt has no timetable.

 

[Tinker Grey]

On evil: God not create evil, evil arises from Gods absence. Read plato hierarcy of existence and early church fathers.

If God is omnipresent and evil is the absence of God; whence evil?

Who is that person or where is that post? I haven't seen that claim stated in this thread.

Here ya go.

 

[CreedIsChrist]

If God is responsible because we have been created with the free will affording evil acts then how can God be faulted for creating people? If we were created with no capacity for evil acts that would mean we would not have free will and ultimately mean God didn't create anything but toys on a string. It would also mean we wouldn't even have the ability to ponder the idea of God. At the end of the day, it is up to each individual to make their own choices because if God could be explained and proven like a mathematical equation then there would be no God.

Has hell frozen over? I actually agree with you

 

[morningstar2651]

Speaking of abdicating the responsibilities of our own actions...

It's a coward's gesture to fling an innocent life before God to die for his own redemption.

"I don't want to die for my own sins, let someone else die for them instead."

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Here ya go.

Please cite the post where I made the claim you said I made. I think you mis-read my post if it's the one iam thinking of.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Speaking of abdicating the responsibilities of our own actions...

It's a coward's gesture to fling an innocent life before God to die for his own redemption.

"I don't want to die for my own sins, let someone else die for them instead."

Is this referencing the Crucifixion? If so, that was God keeping God's promise. It's also seriously misunderstanding what the Crucifixion means in terms of Atonement.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Please cite the post where I made the claim you said I made. I think you mis-read my post if it's the one iam thinking of.

Please re-read my previous response to you. The first quote in that post is from St.Asia who made the claim. The second quote is my resposne to St.Asia. The third is your request for the information about where this exchange came from.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Please re-read my previous response to you. The first quote in that post is from St.Asia who made the claim. The second quote is my resposne to St.Asia. The third is your request for the information about where this exchange came from.

That's too much work. How about whomever had a question directly quote the post they were questioning? This isn't the $100,000 Pyramid.

 

[Tinker Grey]

OK, just for you

• St. Asia said in post 42:

  On evil: God not create evil, evil arises from Gods absence. Read plato hierarcy of existence and early church fathers.

• I replied in post 53:

  If God is omnipresent and evil is the absence of God; whence evil?

• CrankitUp in post 54 essentially asked if that was in response to someone. To which I replied, yes.
• You asked who it was. To which I replied by giving you the posts in question.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

OK, just for you

• St. Asia said in post 42:
• I replied in post 53:
• CrankitUp in post 54 essentially asked if that was in response to someone. To which I replied, yes.
• You asked who it was. To which I replied by giving you the posts in question.

Ahhh...thank you. The problem with the question is assuming "omnipresent" means nothing else can exist.

 

[chingchang]

Awesome thread...right up my alley. I haven't had a chance to read the entire thread...but I would like to comment on the OP observations/questions....

1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.

2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.

Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

As the story goes...they were commanded to not eat from that tree. The did eat from the tree...enter the first sin. God set the mark...they missed...according to the account in Genesis from the OT.

3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.

4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

Great question. I think the answer is Jesus Christ. In other words...we don't have to endure eternal punishment...he provides us a way out. That is my understanding to date.

5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.

7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

No...not in my mind...but I don't have the mind of God. I think some of the conditions you described in 5, 6 and 7 are a tad flawed with regard to the broader message of the Bible. As a related note...I do not believe that people will suffer eternal hell fire...or what is called the "traditional" view of hell. That is impossible to reconcile with what the Apostle John wrote..."God is love". In addition...all of the examples of God's wrath in the OT are of total destruction...not endless torture.

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

The student. I say that because I personally believe...from experience...that God will reveal himself to all that truly seek him. In addition...the Bible says that we need no man to teach us.

8. In effect, god

a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.
​

It is my understanding that he created humans with free will...and therefore the ability to make the wrong choice (i.e. disobey). But...of course we'll disobey...just like my kids occasionally do. We're born that way! That said...when we obtain the knowlege of what God wants from us...and then we continue to disobey...what then? In the case of Adam and Eve...he specifically told them what not to do...and it was only one thing.

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.
​

It would seem that way.

c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

The Bible says that everyone will give an account for their "deeds". So...I don't think he ignores it...he just forgives it. Like a judge who decides to have mercy on someone...because he can if he wants to. I don't completely understand it.
​

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

I think you have it mostly right. But...there are all kinds of theories as to the creation "account". The Gnostic Christians believed that the God that created Adam and Eve was a lesser God...one capable of error and not the "Most High" God that was Jesus' Father. Some of them believed Jesus was shown to us by the "Most High" as an act of love to give us the way (Jesus said "I am the way...the truth....etc.) of escape from this world. There are several other ways of understanding the creation account...many view it as allegorical...meaning it wasn't an actual event. Here is another one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_seed

Crazy stuff. I sure would like to know the truth...but I don't NEED to know. I accept on faith that Jesus was who he claimed to be. I also believe that my right-standing with God is based on my belief in Jesus and not anything I do or don't do.

Love is the answer.

Hugs,
chingchang

 

[soul_biscuit]

As the story goes...they were commanded to not eat from that tree. The did eat from the tree...enter the first sin. God set the mark...they missed...according to the account in Genesis from the OT.

And they were punished forever. And not just them, but the entirety of humanity. What justice is there in punishing everyone for the crime of two.

Great question. I think the answer is Jesus Christ. In other words...we don't have to endure eternal punishment...he provides us a way out. That is my understanding to date.

Yep. He provides us all a way out of a punisment imposed onto all of us by God for a crime that two people who never existed (simple reasoning reveals this) committed.

No...not in my mind...but I don't have the mind of God. I think some of the conditions you described in 5, 6 and 7 are a tad flawed with regard to the broader message of the Bible. As a related note...I do not believe that people will suffer eternal hell fire...or what is called the "traditional" view of hell. That is impossible to reconcile with what the Apostle John wrote..."God is love". In addition...all of the examples of God's wrath in the OT are of total destruction...not endless torture.

Can't argue with this. Condemnation to burn in eternal fire is certainly not compatible with the notion of a loving God.

To my limited mind, of course.

The student. I say that because I personally believe...from experience...that God will reveal himself to all that truly seek him. In addition...the Bible says that we need no man to teach us.

This is an interesting point to me. God only reveals himself to those who truly seek him. Therefore, if he did not reveal himself to you, you were not truly seeking him. Do you see the problem I'm having? It sounds to me like the No True Scotsman fallacy. If you didn't find him, it's because you weren't looking hard enough, not because he's not there.

It is my understanding that he created humans with free will...and therefore the ability to make the wrong choice (i.e. disobey). But...of course we'll disobey...just like my kids occasionally do. We're born that way! That said...when we obtain the knowlege of what God wants from us...and then we continue to disobey...what then? In the case of Adam and Eve...he specifically told them what not to do...and it was only one thing.

You've just revealed the whole problem. Parents didn't program their children to disobey. As you say, we're born that way. We have desires and impulses that cause us to stray occasionally. God doesn't have hthat excuse. He made us! Any flaws in our being are manifestly his fault. If Adam and Eve had not been made with the curiosity to eat the fruit, God wouldn't have had to forbid it to them.

I think you have it mostly right. But...there are all kinds of theories as to the creation "account". The Gnostic Christians believed that the God that created Adam and Eve was a lesser God...one capable of error and not the "Most High" God that was Jesus' Father. Some of them believed Jesus was shown to us by the "Most High" as an act of love to give us the way (Jesus said "I am the way...the truth....etc.) of escape from this world. There are several other ways of understanding the creation account...many view it as allegorical...meaning it wasn't an actual event. Here is another one...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serpent_seed

Crazy stuff. I sure would like to know the truth...but I don't NEED to know. I accept on faith that Jesus was who he claimed to be. I also believe that my right-standing with God is based on my belief in Jesus and not anything I do or don't do.

This is something I came here to understand. How can believers be satisfied with not knowing that their beliefs are true? It is very important to me that my beliefs are true. That's why I'm so interested in science. Science produces knowledge that we an rely upon almost without question, because it is supported by experiment. Further, errors and weaknesses are sure to be ferreted out by other scientists seeking grant money and a name for themselves. It's a self-correcting mechanism that leads to a closer grasp of the truth with every turn of the dial.

What is the basis of a believer's certainty?

 

[Washington]

The student. I say that because I personally believe...from experience...that God will reveal himself to all that truly seek him. In addition...the Bible says that we need no man to teach us.

But to want to "truly seek him" one must be first be convinced that such a quest is worthwhile, which is up to others to do. I'm sure you wouldn't go digging up your back yard for buried treasure unless you've been convinced that such a thing actually existed, and to be convinced would no doubt take a very good deal of inducement, Same with the unbeliever. It's hardly his fault if no one brings the proper convincing evidence to the table. One size does not fit all, so it's up to the tailor, not the prospective customer, to make sure it does.

 

[MedicinalFrog]

I'm going to borrow from God and the State for the OP. Bakunin does a wonderful job of telling the story of Original Sin:

"Yes, our first ancestors, our Adams and our Eves, were, if not gorillas, very near relatives of gorillas, omnivorous, intelligent and ferocious beasts, endowed in a higher degree than the animals of another species with two precious faculties - the power to think and the desire to rebel.

These faculties, combining their progressive action in history, represent the essential factor, the negative power in the positive development of human animality, and create consequently all that constitutes humanity in man.

The Bible, which is a very interesting and here and there very profound book when considered as one of the oldest surviving manifestations of human wisdom and fancy, expresses this truth very naively in its myth of original sin. Jehovah, who of all the good gods adored by men was certainly the most jealous, the most vain, the most ferocious, the most unjust, the most bloodthirsty, the most despotic, and the most hostile to human dignity and liberty - Jehovah had just created Adam and Eve, to satisfy we know not what caprice; no doubt to while away his time, which must weigh heavy on his hands in his eternal egoistic solitude, or that he might have some new slaves. He generously placed at their disposal the whole earth, with all its fruits and animals, and set but a single limit to this complete enjoyment. He expressly forbade them from touching the fruit of the tree of knowledge. He wished, therefore, that man, destitute of all understanding of himself, should remain an eternal beast, ever on all-fours before the eternal God, his creator and his master. But here steps in Satan, the eternal rebel, the first freethinker and the emancipator of worlds. He makes man ashamed of his bestial ignorance and obedience; he emancipates him, stamps upon his brow the seal of liberty and humanity, in urging him to disobey and eat of the fruit of knowledge.

We know what followed. The good God, whose foresight, which is one of the divine faculties, should have warned him of what would happen, flew into a terrible and ridiculous rage; he cursed Satan, man, and the world created by himself, striking himself so to speak in his own creation, as children do when they get angry; and, not content with smiting our ancestors themselves, he cursed them in all the generations to come, innocent of the crime committed by their forefathers. Our Catholic and Protestant theologians look upon that as very profound and very just, precisely because it is monstrously iniquitous and absurd. Then, remembering that he was not only a God of vengeance and wrath, but also a God of love, after having tormented the existence of a few milliards of poor human beings and condemned them to an eternal hell, he took pity on the rest, and, to save them and reconcile his eternal and divine love with his eternal and divine anger, always greedy for victims and blood, he sent into the world, as an expiatory victim, his only son, that he might be killed by men. That is called the mystery of the Redemption, the basis of all the Christian religions. Still, if the divine Savior had saved the human world! But no; in the paradise promised by Christ, as we know, such being the formal announcement, the elect will number very few. The rest, the immense majority of the generations present and to come, will burn eternally in hell. In the meantime, to console us, God, ever just, ever good, hands over the earth to the government of the Napoleon Thirds, of the William Firsts, of the Ferdinands of Austria, and of the Alexanders of all the Russias.

...

God admitted that Satan was right; he recognized that the devil did not deceive Adam and Eve in promising them knowledge and liberty as a reward for the act of disobedience which he bad induced them to commit; for, immediately they had eaten of the forbidden fruit, God himself said (see Bible): "Behold, man is become as of the Gods, knowing both good and evil; prevent him, therefore, from eating of the fruit of eternal life, lest he become immortal like Ourselves."

All in all, I'd say you were pretty close.

 

[chingchang]

What is the basis of a believer's certainty?

I'm all-for science...as I believe an un-biased persuit into science simply explains what God has created in a way that we can understand (technically...I'm a 'scientist' by profession). Discovery is awesome. Experiment creates experience...no? This believer's certainty comes from experience. I was an atheist...seeking truth...and my best friend became a 'believer'. I was open to hearing what he had to say...and witnessed positive change occurring in his life. So...I made a choice to believe (from my perspective) and then had a profound vision (not a dream). It is this unshakeable vision...the change that has occurred in my life and the testimony of others that is the basis for my certainity. I am not certain that the Bible is without error...but I am certain of my experience...which is based on Biblical precepts. Because of this experience...I want to know more...and have spent years being puffed-up with Godly wisdom but have done a poor job putting it to the test and living it. No more though...as I realize what truly matters is relationships (love). So...that is my new focus with Jesus Christ as the pattern. We can debate about the Bible...but one thing nobody can take away from me is my experience.

Free Hugs!
chingchang

 

[Polycarp_fan]

And a few questions.


1. God creates two humans who occupy a perfect, sin-free world.

2. Sin-free humans are deceived into making a wrong choice.

Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

3. God is disgusted with the choice the humans have made and decides to punish them for it.

4. Not only does he visit this punishment on the two, but all their progeny to follow, Plus the rest on the animate world.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.

7. Henceforth, anyone who is gets dealt this card and and plays it, may, at the discretion of god, be granted dispensation from hell. Those who never see the card (the ignorant) or find it seriously lacking in rational (the unconvinced) are sent to hell.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

8. In effect, god

a: chose to make humans fallible through no individual fault of their own.

b: chose to use this fallibility as a means to send them to hell.

c: Ignores this fallibility when judging those who choose not to recognize his Get Out Of Jail Free card for what it is.

​

In effect, god is saying, "Yes I made everyone fallible, and for many of you this failing will send you to eternal suffering. But keep in mind: because I am a good, moral god who can only do good, the suffering you do is good.

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

Or then again, you could just go with 0 x 0 = people.

Other than that, you're not really going to shake away the trust a Christian has in the Biblical record leading to Christ Jesus.

 

[chingchang]

But to want to "truly seek him" one must be first be convinced that such a quest is worthwhile, which is up to others to do. I'm sure you wouldn't go digging up your back yard for buried treasure unless you've been convinced that such a thing actually existed, and to be convinced would no doubt take a very good deal of inducement, Same with the unbeliever. It's hardly his fault if no one brings the proper convincing evidence to the table. One size does not fit all, so it's up to the tailor, not the prospective customer, to make sure it does.

Nah...you don't have to be convinced. Maybe desperate? Willing to try? Just because something seems unbelievable doesn't mean it didn't happen. I realize it seems foolish. There actually is a substantial amount of evidence for the life of Jesus...and adequate evidence (IMHO) for the resurrection. Various authors have presented this evidence in a way that would keep the 'unbelieving' interested long-enough to consider all of it (check Amazon.com). The Bible has a lot to say about 'faith'. Ultimately...even though the available evidence may not be sufficient for some...it still takes faith to believe what seems like foolishness. We all have that ability. We exercise faith everyday...it's just that the Gospel of Jesus Christ is so ridiculous by our modern standards that it exceeds our personal threshold for faith-exercising. Understandibly so.

Free Hugs,
CC