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gluadys

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TwinCrier said:
If evolution is not a theory "regarding the origin of living things" then I suggest we strike all reference to it from now onin this particular forum as this is origins theology.

"Origins" theology presumably is inclusive of the origins of many things, not just life from non-life.

In science, cosmology deals with the origin of the universe, of stars and galaxies, and of solar systems and planets.

And evolution does deal with the origin of species and biological diversity.

Presumably "origins theology" has something to say about both of these as well as about abiogenesis (origin of living things from non-living things).

Just don't confuse one kind of origin with another. The sticker is wrong in identifying evolution with the origin of living things. It should say, if it is used at all, origin of diverse species.
 
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Micaiah

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Ah, I see the source of the error now and apologize for inadvertently strengthening it by the discussion of genes.

The original statement was "Organisms vary and these variations are inherited by their offspring."

You have equated "variations" with "mutations" and I should have corrected that in my last post.

By choosing "variations" rather than "mutations" Gould is following Darwin who knew nothing of modern genetics, not even that genes exist or that they change. So Darwin knew nothing of the cause of variations. But he still observed correctly that characteristics vary.

You are quite right in saying that not all mutations are inherited, since mutations outside of germ cells are excluded. Not all mutations cause variations either, even when they do occur in the germ cells.

However, the statement is not about mutations. It is about variations. That is to say, it is about the phenotypic, not genotypic, differences in organisms of the same species.

Genetics explains the source and mechanism of variation, but the existence and inheritabilty of variation is known by observation independently of genetics.

With that explanation, can we stick with statement 1 in its original wording?
So YEC's who assert men have one less rib than women were correct after all.
 
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Micaiah

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Well, it is true that not all variations are inherited by every child. In sexually reproducing populations, each child receives only half of each parent's genes. But overall, in a population, it would be correct to say that variations are inherited. It would also be obviously correct to say that each individual inherits only part of the variations extant in the population, or even in its parents.
An admission of error - on your part. Apparently not that time, maybe this time.
 
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Micaiah

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And the original statement was: 2. Organisms produce more offspring than can possibly survive.

The problem with your re-wording is that it no longer applies to all populations, but only to a sub-set of populations. What we want is a statement that applies to populations that are shrinking as well as stable or growing. Using "survive" instead of "die" makes statement 2 universal. Ok?
Say granny had five children, and all survived to give birth to children. I think she just invalidated Gould's(???) statement, and demonstrated it is not a statement of fact.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
So YEC's who assert men have one less rib than women were correct after all.

1. No, they are not. As any comparative X-ray of a man and a woman will verify.

2. In any case, Adam's loss of a rib would be an aquired characteristic and not inheritable. He would still pass his genes for a full set of ribs to his offspring (including Eve).

3. Where did this non-sequitor come from? Answer the question asked, please.
 
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Micaiah

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gluadys said:
1. No, they are not. As any comparative X-ray of a man and a woman will verify.

2. In any case, Adam's loss of a rib would be an aquired characteristic and not inheritable. He would still pass his genes for a full set of ribs to his offspring (including Eve).

3. Where did this non-sequitor come from? Answer the question asked, please.
Here are your (Gould's) three statements again, which you claim are facts.

1. Organisms vary and these variations are inherited by their offspring.

2. Organisms produce more offspring than can possibly survive.

3. On average, offspring that vary most strongly in directions favoured by the environment will survive and propogate. Favorable variations will therefore accumulate in populations by natural selection.
Adam's phenotypic variation was not hereditable. Strike 1. Hereditable phenotypical change is passed on through the genes of an animal, unless you know other ways.
 
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Micaiah

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gluadys said:
No, she hasn't. She is not a population.
Where is the word population in the second statement? You at least need to add that word. At best the statement is vague. And suppose a population has recently been decimated by an attack of wild animals. There are 6 survivors. They have 2 offspring, and both those offspring survive to reproduce. Again your argument has been invalidated. Strike 2.
 
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gluadys

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Are you having fun, Micaiah? You are certainly giving me LOL.

I think you know your way around this debate well enough by now to predict the responses to your scenarios. However, on the off chance that some innocent reader thinks you have actually made a point........

Micaiah said:
Here are your (Gould's) three statements again, which you claim are facts.

No, I am not claiming they are facts. I presented them, as per your request, as a list of "the basic tenets of the theory [scientists] consider to be so well proven scientifically that it can be assumed to be fact."

Whether scientists are correct in holding these statements to be fact is a matter to be established by the evidence.

Personally, I think it is pretty obvious that they are.

So let's review. The statements offered are these:

1. Organisms vary and these variations are inherited by their offspring.

2. Organisms produce more offspring than can possibly survive.

3. On average, offspring that vary most strongly in directions favoured by the environment will survive and propogate. Favorable variations will therefore accumulate in populations by natural selection.

These statements are presented as "basic tenets of the theory [of evolution]".

Since they are presented as basic tenets of the theory of evolution, it follows that they are to be interpreted within the context of evolution--i.e. a context of population (or species) change.


Now to your scenarios:

Adam's phenotypic variation was not hereditable. Strike 1. Hereditable phenotypical change is passed on through the genes of an animal, unless you know other ways.

In losing a rib, Adam did not acquire a phenotypic change. A phenotypic change requires an underlying genetic change. Keep 1.

Where is the word population in the second statement? You at least need to add that word.

The word "population" is implied by the fact that we are talking about evolution, which in the context of biology is a change in the characteristics of a population over time.

And suppose a population has recently been decimated by an attack of wild animals. There are 6 survivors. They have 2 offspring, and both those offspring survive to reproduce. Again your argument has been invalidated. Strike 2.

Just as the experience of a single individual does not invalidate 2, neither does the experience of a single generation. Suppose the 2 offspring are both the same gender? What does it matter if they survive to reproductive age? The species has still produced two more offspring than survive to reproduce, because they are incapable of mating and will die without offspring of their own.

Over time, all successfully reproducing organisms will eventually produce more offspring than can survive on the available resources. Keep 2.

I note that you have not discussed #3. Since that is the actual hypothesis (1 & 2 being observations) I would think you would concentrate your attention there.
 
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Micaiah

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Have a look back over the discussion. I said evolution was not fact. You responded that it was wrong to say evolution was not fact. I then asked you to give the basic tenets of evolution with a view to examining whether they were facts.

You then said:

No, I am not claiming they are facts. I presented them, as per your request, as a list of "the basic tenets of the theory [scientists] consider to be so well proven scientifically that it can be assumed to be fact."

Whether scientists are correct in holding these statements to be fact is a matter to be established by the evidence.

Personally, I think it is pretty obvious that they are.
So you are not claiming they were facts, but then say they were so well established they could be considered facts. Then that you believed that they were facts.

You then indicated that item 3 was a hypothesis. We both agree it is not a fact.

Hardly worth discussing the matter any further. Your own statements are confused and contradictory. Your three statements are not statements of fact. As mentioned before, they are accepted in a modified form by YEC's, and hence they do not encapsulate the basic premises required for 'slime to scientist' evolution.

Evolution as an explanation of origins is not fact. As AIG state, it is better considered a hypothesis. The sticker said it well, and the evolutionists equivocation of terms evident in this discussion, and their sneaky attempts to promote theory as fact is good reason to have such a sticker in the text book. Personally, I'd scale down or eliminate evolution from the science course.
 
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gluadys

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Micaiah said:
Have a look back over the discussion. I said evolution was not fact. You responded that it was wrong to say evolution was not fact. I then asked you to give the basic tenets of evolution with a view to examining whether they were facts.

No,you said nothing about examining them. If you wish to begin examining them, I think that is a good idea.

What you asked for was basic tenets considered to be facts.

That is what you got.

Now that you have them, you may wish to begin examining them to see if the scientists are correct in considering them to be facts.

Take point 1.

The issue you have been debating so far is not whether this is a fact, but what variations are. You at first assumed that variations=mutations.

They don't.

You then tried to assert that an acquired characteristic=a phenotypic variation.

It doesn't.

So by "variation" we are referring to "an inheritable change in the phenotype which expresses a change in the genotype".

We are not referring to all changes in the genes; only those that are expressed in the phenotype. And we are not referring to acquired non-inheritable somatic changes.

If that is clear we can now ask whether or not the following statement is true.

Organisms vary.

Yes or no, Michaiah. Do organisms in a population show differences from one another or are they all likely to be identical?

Organisms vary. These variations are inherited by their offspring.

Yes or no, Michaiah. Is that or is that not a fact?
 
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Micaiah

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I find it difficult to have a discussion with someone who cannot make up their mind about what they mean, and whose thoughts seem so confused. Hardly surprising you have so much difficulty accepting the plain assertions of fact recorded in Genesis.

Lets just leave the conversation here. Thanks.
 
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Vance

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The statement that evolution is a fact as well as a theory is in reference to two different things. The fact is that of evolutionary development of species over billions of years. This is considered fact by scientists in the relevant fields, not theory. the theory is how this fact of evolutionary development occured. The theory is that this fact of evolutionary development occurs via the mechanics of natural selection, genetic mutation, genetic drift, punctuated equilibrium, etc.

Even without the theory of evolution as an explanation, we would still have the fact that species have developed over billions of years. This is so well founded by the data that it is now considered scientific fact. If the TOE was found to NOT be the explanation, we would simply have to keep looking for the best explanation of the facts of evolutionary development.

Again, to say that evolution is a theory, not a fact, is a horrible mistatement of basic science regarding what a theory is and what a fact is. Those who perpetuate such bad science should be ashamed of themselves.
 
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Micaiah

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The statement that evolution is a fact as well as a theory is in reference to two different things. The fact is that of evolutionary development of species over billions of years. This is considered fact by scientists in the relevant fields, not theory. the theory is how this fact of evolutionary development occured.
So you agree that the statements promoted by one of your team members as fact were wrong. Thankyou. Now why should we accept what you assert as being any better.
 
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Vance

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Micaiah said:
So you agree that the statements promoted by one of your team members as fact were wrong. Thankyou. Now why should we accept what you assert as being any better.
I am not sure what statements you are referring to. Even the theory of evolution, the theory that a group of mechanisms working together is the explanation for the fact of evolution development, is made up of a series of data facts. It is a fact, for instance, that natural selection takes place. It is a fact that genetic mutation takes place. It is a fact that new species have developed. We have observed this in action. The theory is that these same mechanisms which we observe causing changes today are also the cause of the change in species over the billions if years of the development of life on earth.

So:

1. We have a fact of evolutionary development over billions of years.

2. We also have a scientific theory of how this development happened that seems to fit the facts we have extremely well.

3. We have no other scientifically sound explanation for these facts of evolutionary development.

4. Both the facts of evolutionary development, and the theory of evolution to explain those facts, are entirely consistent with Christian belief and the account in Genesis unless you insist on a strictly literal, historic reading.

I just don't see what the problem is.
 
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Gold Dragon

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Micaiah said:
I hope Gluadys reads your post.

Timeout - Welcome back from your holiday Vance. Hope it was pleasant for you.

Ding Ding. Back into the ring.
I don't see any conflict between what Gluadys and Vance wrote either. Would you care to point out the apparent contradiction to you and we can clarify where you misunderstood.
 
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Vance

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Here is a good discussion of this topic. This is where scientists are coming from, and what we mean when we say it is both fact and theory. You can ignore what we say we believe and you can just maintain your strawman version of TE and evolution since it is much easier to attack, or you can read this :

When non-biologists talk about biological evolution they often confuse two different aspects of the definition. On the one hand there is the question of whether or not modern organisms have evolved from older ancestral organisms or whether modern species are continuing to change over time. On the other hand there are questions about the mechanism of the observed changes... how did evolution occur? Biologists consider the existence of biological evolution to be a fact. It can be demonstrated today and the historical evidence for its occurrence in the past is overwhelming. However, biologists readily admit that they are less certain of the exact mechanism of evolution; there are several theories of the mechanism of evolution. Stephen J. Gould has put this as well as anyone else:
In the American vernacular, "theory" often means "imperfect fact"--part of a hierarchy of confidence running downhill from fact to theory to hypothesis to guess. Thus the power of the creationist argument: evolution is "only" a theory and intense debate now rages about many aspects of the theory. If evolution is worse than a fact, and scientists can't even make up their minds about the theory, then what confidence can we have in it? Indeed, President Reagan echoed this argument before an evangelical group in Dallas when he said (in what I devoutly hope was campaign rhetoric): "Well, it is a theory. It is a scientific theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science--that is, not believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was." Well evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape-like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered.

Moreover, "fact" doesn't mean "absolute certainty"; there ain't no such animal in an exciting and complex world. The final proofs of logic and mathematics flow deductively from stated premises and achieve certainty only because they are not about the empirical world. Evolutionists make no claim for perpetual truth, though creationists often do (and then attack us falsely for a style of argument that they themselves favor). In science "fact" can only mean "confirmed to such a degree that it would be perverse to withhold provisional consent." I suppose that apples might start to rise tomorrow, but the possibility does not merit equal time in physics classrooms.

Evolutionists have been very clear about this distinction of fact and theory from the very beginning, if only because we have always acknowledged how far we are from completely understanding the mechanisms (theory) by which evolution (fact) occurred. Darwin continually emphasized the difference between his two great and separate accomplishments: establishing the fact of evolution, and proposing a theory--natural selection--to explain the mechanism of evolution.

- Stephen J. Gould, " Evolution as Fact and Theory"; Discover, May 1981

Gould is stating the prevailing view of the scientific community. In other words, the experts on evolution consider it to be a fact. This is not an idea that originated with Gould as the following quotations indicate:
Let me try to make crystal clear what is established beyond reasonable doubt, and what needs further study, about evolution. Evolution as a process that has always gone on in the history of the earth can be doubted only by those who are ignorant of the evidence or are resistant to evidence, owing to emotional blocks or to plain bigotry. By contrast, the mechanisms that bring evolution about certainly need study and clarification. There are no alternatives to evolution as history that can withstand critical examination. Yet we are constantly learning new and important facts about evolutionary mechanisms. - Theodosius Dobzhansky "Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution", American Biology Teacher vol. 35 (March 1973) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, J. Peter Zetterberg ed., ORYX Press, Phoenix AZ 1983

Also:
It is time for students of the evolutionary process, especially those who have been misquoted and used by the creationists, to state clearly that evolution is a fact, not theory, and that what is at issue within biology are questions of details of the process and the relative importance of different mechanisms of evolution. It is a fact that the earth with liquid water, is more than 3.6 billion years old. It is a fact that cellular life has been around for at least half of that period and that organized multicellular life is at least 800 million years old. It is a fact that major life forms now on earth were not at all represented in the past. There were no birds or mammals 250 million years ago. It is a fact that major life forms of the past are no longer living. There used to be dinosaurs and Pithecanthropus, and there are none now. It is a fact that all living forms come from previous living forms. Therefore, all present forms of life arose from ancestral forms that were different. Birds arose from nonbirds and humans from nonhumans. No person who pretends to any understanding of the natural world can deny these facts any more than she or he can deny that the earth is round, rotates on its axis, and revolves around the sun. The controversies about evolution lie in the realm of the relative importance of various forces in molding evolution.

- R. C. Lewontin "Evolution/Creation Debate: A Time for Truth" Bioscience 31, 559 (1981) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism, op cit.

This concept is also explained in introductory biology books that are used in colleges and universities (and in some of the better high schools). For example, in some of the best such textbooks we find:
Today, nearly all biologists acknowledge that evolution is a fact. The term theory is no longer appropriate except when referring to the various models that attempt to explain how life evolves... it is important to understand that the current questions about how life evolves in no way implies any disagreement over the fact of evolution. - Neil A. Campbell, Biology 2nd ed., 1990, Benjamin/Cummings, p. 434

Also:
Since Darwin's time, massive additional evidence has accumulated supporting the fact of evolution--that all living organisms present on earth today have arisen from earlier forms in the course of earth's long history. Indeed, all of modern biology is an affirmation of this relatedness of the many species of living things and of their gradual divergence from one another over the course of time. Since the publication of The Origin of Species, the important question, scientifically speaking, about evolution has not been whether it has taken place. That is no longer an issue among the vast majority of modern biologists. Today, the central and still fascinating questions for biologists concern the mechanisms by which evolution occurs. - Helena Curtis and N. Sue Barnes, Biology 5th ed. 1989, Worth Publishers, p. 972

One of the best introductory books on evolution (as opposed to introductory biology) is that by Douglas J. Futuyma, and he makes the following comment:
A few words need to be said about the "theory of evolution," which most people take to mean the proposition that organisms have evolved from common ancestors. In everyday speech, "theory" often means a hypothesis or even a mere speculation. But in science, "theory" means "a statement of what are held to be the general laws, principles, or causes of something known or observed." as the Oxford English Dictionary defines it. The theory of evolution is a body of interconnected statements about natural selection and the other processes that are thought to cause evolution, just as the atomic theory of chemistry and the Newtonian theory of mechanics are bodies of statements that describe causes of chemical and physical phenomena. In contrast, the statement that organisms have descended with modifications from common ancestors--the historical reality of evolution--is not a theory. It is a fact, as fully as the fact of the earth's revolution about the sun. Like the heliocentric solar system, evolution began as a hypothesis, and achieved "facthood" as the evidence in its favor became so strong that no knowledgeable and unbiased person could deny its reality. No biologist today would think of submitting a paper entitled "New evidence for evolution;" it simply has not been an issue for a century. - Douglas J. Futuyma, Evolutionary Biology, 2nd ed., 1986, Sinauer Associates, p. 15

There are readers of these newsgroups who reject evolution for religious reasons. In general these readers oppose both the fact of evolution and theories of mechanisms, although some anti-evolutionists have come to realize that there is a difference between the two concepts. That is why we see some leading anti-evolutionists admitting to the fact of "microevolution"--they know that evolution can be demonstrated. These readers will not be convinced of the "facthood" of (macro)evolution by any logical argument and it is a waste of time to make the attempt. The best that we can hope for is that they understand the argument that they oppose. Even this simple hope is rarely fulfilled. There are some readers who are not anti-evolutionist but still claim that evolution is "only" a theory which can't be proven. This group needs to distinguish between the fact that evolution occurs and the theory of the mechanism of evolution.

We also need to distinguish between facts that are easy to demonstrate and those that are more circumstantial. Examples of evolution that are readily apparent include the fact that modern populations are evolving and the fact that two closely related species share a common ancestor. The evidence that Homo sapiens and chimpanzees share a recent common ancestor falls into this category. There is so much evidence in support of this aspect of primate evolution that it qualifies as a fact by any common definition of the word "fact."

In other cases the available evidence is less strong. For example, the relationships of some of the major phyla are still being worked out. Also, the statement that all organisms have descended from a single common ancestor is strongly supported by the available evidence, and there is no opposing evidence. However, it is not yet appropriate to call this a "fact" since there are reasonable alternatives.

Finally, there is an epistemological argument against evolution as fact. Some readers of these newsgroups point out that nothing in science can ever be "proven" and this includes evolution. According to this argument, the probability that evolution is the correct explanation of life as we know it may approach 99.9999...9% but it will never be 100%. Thus evolution cannot be a fact. This kind of argument might be appropriate in a philosophy class (it is essentially correct) but it won't do in the real world. A "fact," as Stephen J. Gould pointed out (see above), means something that is so highly probable that it would be silly not to accept it. This point has also been made by others who contest the nit-picking epistemologists.
The honest scientist, like the philosopher, will tell you that nothing whatever can be or has been proved with fully 100% certainty, not even that you or I exist, nor anyone except himself, since he might be dreaming the whole thing. Thus there is no sharp line between speculation, hypothesis, theory, principle, and fact, but only a difference along a sliding scale, in the degree of probability of the idea. When we say a thing is a fact, then, we only mean that its probability is an extremely high one: so high that we are not bothered by doubt about it and are ready to act accordingly. Now in this use of the term fact, the only proper one, evolution is a fact. For the evidence in favor of it is as voluminous, diverse, and convincing as in the case of any other well established fact of science concerning the existence of things that cannot be directly seen, such as atoms, neutrons, or solar gravitation .... So enormous, ramifying, and consistent has the evidence for evolution become that if anyone could now disprove it, I should have my conception of the orderliness of the universe so shaken as to lead me to doubt even my own existence. If you like, then, I will grant you that in an absolute sense evolution is not a fact, or rather, that it is no more a fact than that you are hearing or reading these words.

- H. J. Muller, "One Hundred Years Without Darwin Are Enough" School Science and Mathematics 59, 304-305. (1959) reprinted in Evolution versus Creationism op cit.

In any meaningful sense evolution is a fact, but there are various theories concerning the mechanism of evolution.

[from www.talkorigins.org]
 
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