The Statue of Mary

[benedictaoo]

So you're admitting you've been indoctrinated, based on your assumption that I've been indoctrinated?

Bene, you're my favorite Cajun. Are you an LSU football fan as well?

I'm a Saints fan- LSU's alright.

and sure we are all indoctrinated-- but I know my indoctrination comes from Christ and the apostles, I can historically prove this... yours comes from a 16th century Lawyer who broke from Christ's Church. I can also historically prove that.

You really need to investigate what gave him the authrty to do that.

 

[benedictaoo]

We believe the Catholic Church is the universal Church made up of all Christians.

The Roman Catholic Church is a denomination who claims superiority over the rest of christianity.

Pardon me Dave but.. lol.

 

[DD2008]

Yes, all scripture is inspired by God... doesn't say only scripture is inspried by God.

and if all scripture is inspired by God then why do you reject the 7 books? It's scripture.. no theologian alive disputes that, and Paul said all scripture is inspired so there you go.

We get the old testament from the witness of the Jews. the Septuagint was a greek translation with disputed books in it. Like our modern day ESV with apocrypha.

The traditional jews claim the 39 books of the OT as inspired. We believe them.

my bible says perfect not complete but yes scripture does perfect us (sanctfy us) and with scripture we are furnished (sanctified) to do every good work out there but there is no scripture that say it does solely.

Complete or perfect are both strong words that mean you don't need anything else.

In other words, ths is all you need to be perfect and complete.

I'm looking for that verse Dave, can you show it to me?

Here is is in the RSV translation.

2 Timothy 3:16-17

[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

You cannot change the meaning of the word complete or perfect. It is conclusive Bene.

You have no more God given authority to interpret the bible then I have. I'm just as good as you are to interpret.

The words are the words. I don't see how the meaning can change. It supports Sola Scriptura entirely.

What you need to do is give me a good reason why I should reject my interpretation that comes down to us from the apostles, the lens I read the bible through is that of the early Church.. I'm all ears, tell me why I should abandon that and and go for a 16th century revisionist interpretation instead

First of all the early Church was splintered all over the place and those who could actually get their hands on the entirety of scripture generally got a copy that wasn't even in their native tongue. One of the first major effors at the consolidation of scripture was to put it into a language that people understood, (Latin) so we have Jerome's Vulgate

Since the advent of the prinitng press and the advancement of translations into the vernaculars the knowledge of scripture has exploded.

There is a big difference between now and then in that regard.

You're view of the reformation seems narrow and one sided. Calvin didn't revise scripture. He simply expounded upon it and debated with others what he read there. He pretty much naild it. He just repeated what it said.

One must read scripture as a unified whole. The old covenant comes first then the new convenant...etc

 

[DD2008]

I'm a Saints fan- LSU's alright.

I'm an OU fan. And a disgruntled Dallas Cowboy fan.

and sure we are all indoctrinated-- but I know my indoctrination comes from Christ and the apostles, I can historically prove this... yours comes from a 16th century Lawyer who broke from Christ's Church. I can also historically prove that.

You really need to investigate what gave him the authrty to do that.

Actually my interpretation comes from reading scripture. I found out later that what I believe is what is called Calvinism.

I did not set out to learn about Calvinism or even learn in the complany of Calvinists.

Once I discovered that they agree with my views on scripture I took it like this Oh no! I'm a Calvinist!

Then I started to give ear to other Calvinists and have found the one I agree with most is R.C. Sproul.

I check everyone against scripture however.

So, I was indoctrinated by the bible.

 

[benedictaoo]

I'm an OU fan. And a disgruntled Dallas Cowboy fan.



Actually my interpretation comes from reading scripture. I found out later that what I believe is what is called Calvinism.

I did not set out to learn about Calvinism or even learn in the complany of Calvinists.

Once I discovered that they agree with my views on scripture I took it like this Oh no! I'm a Calvinist!

Then I started to give ear to other Calvinists and have found the one I agree with most is R.C. Sproul.

I check everyone against scripture however.

So, I was indoctrinated by the bible.

oh, okay.... sure.

well guess what- you and Calvin both disagree with the faith of the fathers. You do not make him right anymore then what he can make you right,

 

[PETE_]

The Doctrines of Grace were taught by Jesus and Paul, although I have no idea what that has to do with the statue of Mary

 

[benedictaoo]

The doctrine of grace was taught by Christ and Paul... but the doctrine of grace alone was taught by Luther and Calvin copied.

and what's with all this alone stuff? Scripture alone, faith alone, grace alone... y'all are one lonely bunch but God is not a loner- He's a family thus Mary is our mother. what family does not have a mother? A dysfunctional one... Gd is not dysfunctional.

and I am out.................................................................................................

 

[DD2008]

The doctrine of grace was taught by Christ and Paul... but the doctrine of grace alone was taught by Luther and Calvin copied.

and what's with all this alone stuff? Scripture alone, faith alone, grace alone... y'all are one lonely bunch but God is not a loner- He's a family thus Mary is our mother. what family does not have a mother? A dysfunctional one... Gd is not dysfunctional.

and I am out.................................................................................................

Nice talking to you.

See you around.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

I just wanted to say, Elijah and Moses appearing at the Transfiguration shows that the Saints in Heaven are not far from us and are alive, not dead in fact, this is a lot like the Mary apparitions!

 

[MoNiCa4316]

um...we all believe Scripture is inspired by God, surprise surprise..

so far no Protestant has been able to explain to me how it can say in the Bible that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth if sola scriptura is true.

why focus on that verse and ignore this one??

God is NOT the author of confusion.

that's right, He's not, that's why it makes sense that there would be one Church that teaches the same things, and not thousands of conflicting denominations. The idea that God is not the author of confusion supports Catholicism more than Protestantism. There is no confusion in official Church teaching.

Actually my interpretation comes from reading scripture. I found out later that what I believe is what is called Calvinism.

and how do you know that your personal interpretation of Scripture which coincides with Calvinism is correct? especially since it differs so much from how Christians have always understood Scripture before Calvinism came along? you do realize that Calvinism is a NEW teaching not apostolic.. not supported by the ECFs..

 

[MamaZ]

I just wanted to say, Elijah and Moses appearing at the Transfiguration shows that the Saints in Heaven are not far from us and are alive, not dead in fact, this is a lot like the Mary apparitions!

Problem with that is that they were talking with Jesus and if you will notice who they were and the reasoning behind who they were. They were not there to speak to the disciples but to Christ himself.. Unlike the Mary aparations..

 

[MamaZ]

oh, okay.... sure.

well guess what- you and Calvin both disagree with the faith of the fathers. You do not make him right anymore then what he can make you right,

were are we told to follow the faith of the fathers? For scripture teaches us that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. And if scripture can fully equip a man why would I need the faith of fathers? I get my doctrine also from the scriptures.. I didn't even know anything about calvinism until I came here.. I believed in predestination as scripture teaches us. Its just that calvin believed the scriptures instead of the faith of men..

 

[PETE_]

Protestant has been able to explain to me how it can say in the Bible that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth if sola scriptura is true.

According to 1 Timothy 3:15 and 2 Timothy 2:19 the church functions as a stable platform for the message of the gospel. The term pillar carries the idea of strength and support, as does foundation. The church is to be the unshakable repository of the truth. Since the gospel is the truth, it must be upheld at all costs.http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=50965506#_ftn2

 

[Polycarp1]

According to 1 Timothy 3:15 and 2 Timothy 2:19 the church functions as a stable platform for the message of the gospel. The term pillar carries the idea of strength and support, as does foundation. The church is to be the unshakable repository of the truth. Since the gospel is the truth, it must be upheld at all costs.http://christianforums.com/showthread.php?p=50965506#_ftn2

Note, sir, that it is the Gospel, the Good News of salvation and redemption in Christ, that is the truth that is to be upheld at all costs-- not any one denominational theology or ecclesiology, the Bible, or any other created thing. I for one feel that's an important distinction to make.

As in this example: no Christian has any objection to seeking the intercession of the saints, that is, asking one's brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for oneself or for one's concerns. The really large issue raised here is whether it is appropriate, or even possible, to ask the saints of the Church Triumphant, that is, the saints who have gone to their reward, to do likewise. Notice that we are not talking about canonized Saints, but the members of the church, the communion of saints.

 

[MoNiCa4316]

Problem with that is that they were talking with Jesus and if you will notice who they were and the reasoning behind who they were. They were not there to speak to the disciples but to Christ himself.. Unlike the Mary aparations..

but there is no reason why they couldn't have spoken to the disciples if they had a reason to. There's nothing in the Bible against that.

were are we told to follow the faith of the fathers? For scripture teaches us that faith comes from hearing and hearing from the word of God. And if scripture can fully equip a man why would I need the faith of fathers? I get my doctrine also from the scriptures.. I didn't even know anything about calvinism until I came here.. I believed in predestination as scripture teaches us. Its just that calvin believed the scriptures instead of the faith of men..

because there are different ways to INTERPRET Scripture.. and the Protestant interpretation is modern. It's different than how all Christians have always interpreted the Bible since the early Church days. Are you saying that they were all wrong?

It says in the Bible that the Church is the pillar and the foundation of all truth. If sola scriptura was right, wouldn't you expect it to say this about the Bible? But it says about the Church... this goes right against sola scriptura.

 

[PETE_]

Note, sir, that it is the Gospel, the Good News of salvation and redemption in Christ, that is the truth that is to be upheld at all costs-- not any one denominational theology or ecclesiology, the Bible, or any other created thing. I for one feel that's an important distinction to make.

As in this example: no Christian has any objection to seeking the intercession of the saints, that is, asking one's brothers and sisters in Christ to pray for oneself or for one's concerns. The really large issue raised here is whether it is appropriate, or even possible, to ask the saints of the Church Triumphant, that is, the saints who have gone to their reward, to do likewise. Notice that we are not talking about canonized Saints, but the members of the church, the communion of saints.

I wasnt saying anything about the saints, just trying to answer Monica

 

[DD2008]

because there are different ways to INTERPRET Scripture.. and the Protestant interpretation is modern. It's different than how all Christians have always interpreted the Bible since the early Church days. Are you saying that they were all wrong?

Here is a good article about what the early Church believed about Sola Scriptura: http://www.christiananswers.net/q-eden/sola-scriptura-earlychurch.html

Here is an excerpt from the article


"The Early Church Fathers (Ignatius, Polycarp, Clement, the Didache, and Barnabus) taught doctrine and defended Christianity against heresies. In doing this, their sole appeal for authority was Scripture."

 

[DD2008]

um...we all believe Scripture is inspired by God, surprise surprise..

so far no Protestant has been able to explain to me how it can say in the Bible that the Church is the pillar and foundation of truth if sola scriptura is true.

why focus on that verse and ignore this one??..

1Timothy 3:15
[15] if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth.

This scripture says that the church is the pillar and bulwark of truth.

What is that truth? The Church holds it up, it mustn't be hard to find. It must be obvious. Is it anything that a bishop or a council decides they will declare to be the truth?

No.

The very next verse answers our question:

1Timothy 3:16
[16] Great indeed, we confess, is the mystery of our religion: He was manifested in the flesh,
vindicated in the Spirit,
seen by angels,
preached among the nations,
believed on in the world,
taken up in glory.

The Gospel is the truth that the Church holds up! Christ. Christ came in the flesh and persevered through all that was put before him. He was believed upon and taken up in glory. The gospel of Christ is the truth of the Church.

The gospel was preached by the apostles and their teachings are recorded in inspired scripture. To say that scripture is inspired by God means that it is true. It is trustworthy. We can believe it because God's hand is on it. The very truth that the church holds up is found within it. Without the scriptures the Church wouldn't have apostolic teaching.

So when the bible says this it is very important.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.


Scripture is inspired by God and makes a man complete equipped for every good work. There is nothing that needs to be added to it.

It would be wonderful if we could hear the word of mouth teachings of the eyewitnesses of Christ who were graced with the prophetic word first hand. But that isn't possible. We have their teachings in the form of writing inspired by God. It is inspired therefore it is inerrant therefore it is infallible. God doesn't make mistakes and gave us complete scripture by the inspiration and power of the Holy Spirit. Now you can get a bible anywhere.

In the bible it says nothing about prayers to anything other than God.

BUt it does say that the spirit interceeds for us.

Romans 8:26
[26] Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us withsighs too deep for words.

Christ did teach us to pray to God.

Matthew 6:9
[9] Pray then like this: Our Father who art in heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.

It tells us ther is one mediator between God and man.

1 Timothy 2:5
[5] For there isoneGod, and there isone mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,

And gives plenty of warnings against idolatry:

Leviticus 26:1
[1] "You shall make for yourselves no idols and erect nogravenimage or pillar, and you shall not set up a figured stone in your land, to bow down to them; for I am the LORD your God.

Revelation 19:10
[10] Then I fell down at his feet to worship him, but he said to me, "You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brethren who hold the testimony of Jesus. Worship God." For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

Paul said don't go beyond the letter:

1 Corinthians 4:6
[6] I have applied all this to myself and Apol'los for your benefit, brethren, that you may learn by us not to go beyond what is written, that none of you may be puffed up in favor of one against another.

Christ said scripture cannot be broken:

John 10:35
[35] If he called them gods to whom the word of God came (and scripture cannot be broken),

The gospel is recorded in holy inspired scripture that has the hand of God on it. There is no other earthly authority that is above the written word of God. The Church is subject to that which it upholds as the pillar and that is the scriptures that contain the Holy Gospel.

Prayer to anyone other than God and building statues to them to bow before isn't scriptural.

 

[Thekla]

2 Timothy 3:16-17

Conclusively prooves sola scriptura.

Scripture makes a man COMPLETE! God didn't leave anything out.

It needs not say anything else it nailed it.

complete in the sense of "equipped", not completed (teleios)
-- as the previous verse notes, righteous (as Zachariah, Symeon, etc.)

 

[DD2008]

complete in the sense of "equipped", not completed (teleios)
-- as the previous verse notes, righteous (as Zachariah, Symeon, etc.)

Exactley.

Completely equipped for every good work. Every good work means just that.