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If eternal punishment is but a flash in the pan before non existence, is that punishment enough?
I'm not convinced one way or the other. I just pointed out that the Gospel writers reported the Apostles thought they were seeing a ghost.But I think you are looking for Bible confirmation that ghosts are really dead people instead of what the Bible says about the ghost and the "familiar spirit" in 1 Sam 28??
I sort of remember when the Apostles saw Jesus walking on the water they thought it was a ghost. Why would the Gospel writer write that? Hmmmmm Can this be taken as a confirmation on the existence of ghosts?
I'm not convinced one way or the other. .
apples and oranges,
In the light of eternity, the fires that consume sin and sinners is but "a flash in the pan". It doesn't matter that it takes a thousand years or mere minutes to consume, it is over when it is finished consuming. Their existence, their sins, their thoughts even in the minds of those who live on will be erased. That is how tears are wiped away, long before the fire is kindled, the state of the dead from the book of the dead have been poured over and decreed their length of suffering for their sins before their life is snuffed out by the "eternal flames" in the lake of fire. As scripture says.."But a flash in the pan"?? is it your claim that anything short of infinite torture as the just reward for finite sin -- is "but a flash in the pan"?? In what real life scenario has that ever been true?
ok, you are in the no ghost camp. But please, dont base it in sola scriptura nonsense by saying the Lord didnt explicitly say so.I am not convinced that extreme inference is sufficient substitute for "thus sayeth the Lord" which is what would actually be needed to establish such an extreme idea as "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints"
Correction - that was the mere quote of the text - that is causing that reaction you express.
Just to be sure, you realize i was being sarcastic, right?
I am not convinced that extreme inference is sufficient substitute for "thus sayeth the Lord" which is what would actually be needed to establish such an extreme idea as "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints"
ok, you are in the no ghost camp. But please, dont base it in sola scriptura nonsense by saying the Lord didnt explicitly say so.
I guess the Gospel writers (3 of them) were odd.The claim that "dead people come around as ghosts to mess with you even in the case of dead saints" is "off the charts" if all it has to support it - is the shifting sand of "sounds about right to me but not to folks that see that sort of thing as odd"
Ah, now all the SS people have another arrow in the quiver, it doesnt make sense to me so we dont need bible textsuch an extreme belief would need an actual Bible text for it.
Christ came to show us the way so we may have real life! He spoke of those who had no knowledge of God as dead already. Let the dead go bury their dead. God is Life! When His light, love and spirit fills the believer, by faith, then we are saved by grace! The in dwelling Spirit is what gives Life! Once one believes, lives by faith, not by sight, trusting, knowing God's righteous right arm, is with them it opens an amazing new realm! Glory to God, Jesus prayed we too would be one as He and the Father, all of Us One! John 17:21 Then real life, everlasting life occurs! God is with us, is us! We are to overcome the seen, believing in the unseen, Doing what Christ said, loving God and one another, having Faith!The State of the Dead
Psalm 6:5 KJV — For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?
Psalm 88:10 KJV — Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.
Psalm 115:17 KJV — The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.
Ecclesiastes 9:5,6
5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Job 7:9,10
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
The Dead Are Dead/Sleep
2 Samuel 12:21-23
21 Then said his servants unto him, What thing is this that thou hast done? thou didst fast and weep for the child, while it was alive; but when the child was dead, thou didst rise and eat bread.
22 And he said, While the child was yet alive, I fasted and wept: for I said, Who can tell whether GOD will be gracious to me, that the child may live?
23 But now he is dead, wherefore should I fast? can I bring him back again? I shall go to him, but he shall not return to me.
John 11:11-14
11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.
14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.
The Wicked Dead:
Psalm 37:20 KJV — But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Psalm 68:2 KJV — As smoke is driven away, so drive them away: as wax melteth before the fire, so let the wicked perish at the presence of God.
Revelation 20:11-15
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Malachi 4:1-3
1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.
2 But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.
3 And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet in the day that I shall do this, saith the LORD of hosts.
The Righetous Dead:
1 Thessalonians 4:13-16
13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
Only the Righteous Live Forever:
Romans 6:23 KJV — For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Genesis 3:22 KJV — And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
Revelation 2:7 KJV — He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.
Job 7:9,10
9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.
10 He shall return no more to his house, neither shall his place know him any more.
Job 14:10-12
10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
If eternal punishment is but a flash in the pan before non existence, is that punishment enough? If the punishment is as long as it is for Satan, even he comes to ashes, as the fire consumes him from within until there is nothing left. So it is with all who follow him. The eternal punishment is the "forever" part. The punishment itself is like a flame going out after the fuel for the flame is gone.
The bible is clear. Let me ask you this, Would a merciful God allow someone to burn forever? How would you feel if your loved one is burning and burning with no end in sight while you live peace? Satan would love that but not God. There is no such teaching as eternal life for a sinner. I served God out of fear, but that is not what he desires. He wants it to be out of love.
You are right when you say that God wants us to serve him out of love, but I have to disagree with you on Hell.
Matthew 25:46 ESV
And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
How can their punishment end, when it is eternal. I don't believe that God likes it, and this is why he sent his son, so that we those who would except him would be spared from his wrath. God is the God of mercy, but he is also the God of justice.
If a soul is extinguished by God, the person cannot be extended, healed or made to receive life. That is the eternal punishment, to never live again. God is not sadistic, but argued for mercy and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). God is against cruelty. Jesus taught and healed. He broke bread for thousands. He did not crucify his opponents. His kingdom was not likened to the kingdoms of the world who fought for dominion.That is exactly the same reason why there is no eternal punishment. How could you punish someone who's life is but a vapour, equally as a spirit who has lived for thousands of years, and caused untold evil?
If a soul is extinguished by God, the person cannot be extended, healed or made to receive life. That is the eternal punishment, to never live again. God is not sadistic, but argued for mercy and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). God is against cruelty. Jesus taught and healed. He broke bread for thousands. He did not crucify his opponents. His kingdom was not likened to the kingdoms of the world who fought for dominion.
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