The state of the Dead

[asiyreh]

So Mand there was just one small issue I wanted to discuss with you in your last post concerning suicide you said:-

But I know this as a fact. My best friend of over 20ty years killed himself, and came down from Haven and stopped me from killing myself.

Now I want to be very delicate here, I realize this must be a very difficult thing for you to bare. So please, please believe me when I say I'm writing this with the very best intentions.

Ok now guys, I live in the world, so I do realize that a certain flavour of spiritualism has crept into the belief system of the Christian church.

What do I mean by this?
Well, let me ask you Mand; has the Day of Christ and his Judgement yet come to pass?
The obvious answer is no, therefore do you believe it’s possible for your friend or any of your past loved ones to be in heaven yet?

...

Now I believe you believe whatever happened to you is true. I don’t doubt it for a second. Christ obviously has important work for you to do; here’s what I think may have happened. The angel of the Lord prevented you from taking your own life as Christ has work for you yet to complete. That’s lovely because you’re probably going to save someone’s soul and you must be here to do it. This makes me happy.

Getting back to the discussion for the moment I’m not going to attempt to knock down straw men. It is my belief that the dead are sleeping waiting for the Judgement. Not already in heaven. I’m willing to defend this position on biblical principles. If anyone believes the dead are in heaven and can influence what is happening in this world or hold to any other type of spiritual beliefs then I'd be willing to discuss them here and defend them based on scripture.

 

[Harry3142]

I Corinthians 15:20 tells us that Jesus Christ himself was the firstfruits of those who have 'fallen asleep'. No one was resurrected before him. However, we run into problems when we try to say that no one is alive apart from that person's body. this contradicts Scripture.

In Matthew 17:1-3. we are told that Jesus Christ met, and talked with, both Moses and Elijah. Elijah was taken into heaven while still alive, but Scripture tells us that Moses definitely died (Deuteronomy 34:1-8). So either the apostles were hallucinating, or what they saw was Moses' soul apart from his body, since Jesus himself had not died and been resurrected yet.

Also, if there is no life apart from the body, we have serious problems with this Scripture:

He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. (I Peter 3:18b-20a)

The SDA's teach that we will all be in an unconscious state together with our bodies until The End of Days. The JW's teach that we will actually be cloned; these bodies will have been disposed of completely beforehand and new bodies will have replaced them. But both of these sects insist that we must accept this teaching through believing that they have been divinely inspired to formulate this theology in contradiction of Holy Writ.

 

[asiyreh]

Bah I forgot to stipulate that part. There is actually a heavenly council who won't be judged along with the rest of us and are currently with Christ. The council is referred to in the book of revelations I believe. See I was so worried about upsetting Mand I forgot to check myself.

 

[mandelduke]

Good question! Maybe I should said Paradise or Abrahams Bosom. I say Heaven because of all the near death experiences I have studied in the last three years. They say that they either went to Heaven or hell. No Judgment Day will come after the thousand year rain. I have listed three scriptures that support your soul not going to sleep. I must say it is pleasant debating you Asiyreh:

 

[asiyreh]

Thanks Mand the pleasure is mine. I do love a good theological debate. These issues, I wouldn't assume they're salvation issues. It's not like we're saved by knowledge. However I do like to test them, see how they hold up. Harry's right I stole this particular teaching from the SDA. I do so love them little SDA's, but don't worry it's not like I'm about to become a vegetarian or anything.

Cows beware!

I think they're pretty cool though. I never could understand the book of revelation, for years I tried to understand it, to even make sense of it. Those guys they've got it down to a fine art form.

Pretty amazing stuff makes you really think. Anyone who likes a really good shock should try watching:-

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...uKN-ZUKEDOsbp4iKQ&sig2=nF2efwef0dvlmPR74GpOTw

That's part of a 36 part lecture series on the book of revelation btw. The series is called Total Onslaught and is available for free on youtube.

Couldn't sleep for two days after that!

Ammm anyways sorry Mand I digress. Yes NDEs this is a subject I researched quite a while back. Fascinating indeed and well if it draws people to Christ I'm all for it. They never really seem to have very much in the way of authentic Christian flavor though I noticed.
But nevertheless I began to look back through some of the stuff I had on these NDEs. I remembered one video I did like, from a Christian pastor.
Now I'm not suggesting this has anything to do with your personal experience, with the suicide, but I thought I'd post it anyways, as it strikes a chord with the message I'm trying to get across. I've extracted this 10 second segment from the hour long video. (Using tubechop)

http://www.tubechop.com/watch/440645

The pastor here is describing types of demons that he saw in his NDE. He describes an order of these demons who we're expect in mimicking departed people, as ghosts.
I'm not saying it's true; but I thought I post it because it matches what I'm trying to say about this spirituality, that's crept into the Christian church.

Oh and sorry Mand I couldn't find those three verses you said you posted for consideration. Could you post them again for me. Cheers bro.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Thanks Mand the pleasure is mine. I do love a good theological debate. These issues, I wouldn't assume they're salvation issues. It's not like we're saved by knowledge. However I do like to test them, see how they hold up. Harry's right I stole this particular teaching from the SDA. I do so love them little SDA's, but don't worry it's not like I'm about to become a vegetarian or anything.

Cows beware!

I think they're pretty cool though. I never could understand the book of revelation, for years I tried to understand it, to even make sense of it. Those guys they've got it down to a fine art form.

Pretty amazing stuff makes you really think. Anyone who likes a really good shock should try watching:-

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rc...uKN-ZUKEDOsbp4iKQ&sig2=nF2efwef0dvlmPR74GpOTw

That's part of a 36 part lecture series on the book of revelation btw. The series is called Total Onslaught and is available for free on youtube.

Couldn't sleep for two days after that!

Total Onslaught!! You watched that?

I think everyone should watch that. I can understand why you said you didn't sleep although I didn't have a problem sleeping.

Your original post is right too. Sure you can find a few scriptures which might appear to challenge that but anyone who is honest knows that the majority of scripture agrees that when you die it is like a sleep. You "sleep" until the resurrection.

The bible says the living know that they shall die but the dead knows nothing. Most of us believe the dead know everything.

 

[asiyreh]

I can understand why you said you didn't sleep although I didn't have a problem sleeping.

I live in N.Ireland, in a Roman Catholic family.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

I live in N.Ireland, in a Roman Catholic family.

Oh I see.

 

[mandelduke]

Oh I’m sorry I forgot to post them.

Luke 23:43
Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Luke 16:19-31
19 “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20 At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21 and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 “The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’
25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26 And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set in place, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’
27 “He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my family, 28 for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’
29 “Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’
30 “‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’
31 “He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’”


1 Peter 3:18-20
18 For Christ also suffered once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive in the Spirit. 19 After being made alive,[a] he went and made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits — 20 to those who were disobedient long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water,
Here is a webpage you may find interesting?
http://realchristianity.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/what-happens-immediately-after-death/

 

[asiyreh]

Lol no problem my man. Ok well I don't really want to turn this into a crazy debate, with us pointing the finger at each other, shouting and all that nasty stuff.

So what I'd like to do instead is just have a chat about these great verses you've selected here. I like us to maybe just deal with one verse at a time if that's ok with you. We'll have a chat about them individually, mull them over..

So obviously the most important verse, and therefore, not ironically the first, comes directly from Our Lord Jesus. Now at first glance it would definitely appear to dispute the theory of the dead asleep, waiting upon the judgement.

On the other hand verses such as these seem to affirm my theory.
Ok so I posted the texts of some of the verses below. Other I haven't bothered with, not because they're weaker but if you're interested you can unlock them yourself. And there's way more we're these came from.

Job 14:10
Job 14:14 - If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come.
Job 14:13 "If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
Psalm 6:5
Psalm 49:15 - But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
Daniel 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28-29 - “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John 3:13
Acts 2:29-34
2 Peter 3:4

Hmmm so it would appear we have a conflict here.

Or do we...

Ok so let's look at the text you've posed.


Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."Luke 23:43

Let's assume we accept your view is correct for a second. From your point of view Jesus is telling the thief he will arrive in heaven with him on that day. The Friday for arguments sake, we'll say it was Friday.

Did the thief die on the Friday, or were the Romans talking about breaking his bones to kill him faster the next day?

Opps.

Secondly did Christ ascend into heaven that day, or did he rest in the grave throughout the Sabbath and rise on the Sunday?

Hmmm lol???

Ok so now from your point of view not only is Christ in dispute with the verses I've listed, but worse than that, he's deliberately misled the thief. Neither Christ nor the thief went to heaven that day...

Uga???

So what's going on here?

Well you see that text you've given in the original Greek, is just one big large chunk. There's no punctuation in it. Well nothing that relates to the way we've punctuated it in English.

Also we must accept the language that Christ used, will place diffrent emphasis on certain phrases.

How could we best put this into a modern English?
Ok Consider for a second if Christ said to you -

Listen Mand, mark this day, for you will be with me in heaven.

So let's take a look at the verse again and see if that's possible.

It is and here's the difference between your point of view on this verse and mine. Look carefully now.

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."



Hehe funny... K I wait for you to write back before we go on.

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Lol no problem my man. Ok well I don't really want to turn this into a crazy debate, with us pointing the finger at each other, shouting and all that nasty stuff.

So what I'd like to do instead is just have a chat about these great verses you've selected here. I like us to maybe just deal with one verse at a time if that's ok with you. We'll have a chat about them individually, mull them over..

So obviously the most important verse, and therefore, not ironically the first, comes directly from Our Lord Jesus. Now at first glance it would definitely appear to dispute the theory of the dead asleep, waiting upon the judgement.

On the other hand verses such as these seem to up affirm my theory.
Ok so I posted the texts of some of the verses below. Other I haven't bothered with, not because they're weaker but if you're interested you can unlock them yourself. And there's way more we're these came from.

Job 14:10
Job 14:14 - If a man dies, will he live again? All the days of my hard service I will wait for my renewal to come.
Job 14:13 "If only you would hide me in the grave and conceal me till your anger has passed! If only you would set me a time and then remember me!
Psalm 6:5
Psalm 49:15 - But God will redeem my soul from the power of the grave: for he shall receive me. Selah.
Daniel 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
John 5:28-29 - “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done good will rise to live, and those who have done evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.
John 3:13
Acts 2:29-34
2 Peter 3:4

Hmmm so it would appear we have a conflict here.

Or do we...

Ok so let's look at the text you've posed.


Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."Luke 23:43

Let's assume we accept your view is correct for a second. From your point of view Jesus is telling the thief he will arrive in heaven with him on that day. The Friday for arguments sake, we'll say it was Friday.

Did the thief die on the Friday, or were the Romans talking about breaking his bones to kill him faster the next day?

Opps.

Secondly did Christ ascend into heaven that day, or did he rest in the grave throughout the Sabbath and rise on the Sunday?

Hmmm lol???

Ok so now from your point of view not only is Christ in dispute with the verses I've listed, but worse than that, he's deliberately misled the thief. Neither Christ nor the thief went to heaven that day...

Uga???

So what's going on here?

Well you see that text you've given in the original Greek, is just one big large chunk. There's no punctuation in it. Well nothing that relates to the way we've punctuated it in English.

Also we must accept the language that Christ used, will place diffrent emphasis on certain phrases.

How could we best put this into a modern English?
Ok Consider for a second if Christ said to you -

Listen Mand, mark this day, for you will be with me in heaven.

So let's take a look at the verse again and see if that's possible.

It is and here's the difference between your point of view on this verse and mine. Look carefully now.

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth today, you will be with me in paradise."



Hehe funny... K I wait for you to write back before we go on.

Good post bro. I have your back.

 

[chilehed]

...If anyone believes the dead are in heaven and can influence what is happening in this world or hold to any other type of spiritual beliefs then I'd be willing to discuss them here and defend them based on scripture.

I'm not sure you should be spoiling for a debate in this section of the forum. Wouldn't the involve a violation of the rules?

 

[Alive_Again]

Our departed family and friends who were Christians are definitely in Heaven as we speak. They look in on us from the cloud of witnesses who cheer us on. Those who have seen this say that sometimes God will allow one to speak.

Although I don't seek to contact our departed friends, examine the fruits. A devil will not come to you and keep you from destroying your God given life. Some who commit suicide do so out of great distress and if they are Christians, or even cry out to God, they might be saved. If a "spirit" speaks to you identifying itself as your friend or relative and what they say causes you to be saved, or to seek God, then I would hold that in my heart and just thank God someone intervened on His behalf (would have to be by permission from God) to save.

Always judge it by the fruits. Also, as a rule, don't seek these type of experiences out, but if it happens, look at what's being said and measure it by the revelation of God.