The spirits in prison

[Andrewn]

I looked this up in the Hebrew once. (Place of silence.) And from what I came to understand; it would be more accurately translated as "place where they are not heard" more than it would be accurate to say they have no conscious existence. They are "not heard" because they are condemned for their sin; (such as in the rich man pleading for mercy). Which this interpretation gives credence when in Jonah 2:2 he speaks of "I cried from the belly of hell and You heard me..." Who would God hear crying from the belly of hell but someone who has no sin. (Thus by implication shouldn't be there.) This jives with "You have not left my soul in hell, nor suffered your holy one to see corruption".

This sounds like a good description of pharisaic beliefs. I still think the sadducees believed sheol / hades was a place of silence. The sadducees were literalists and based their views on verses that imply complete silence, even for a saint like David:

Ps 6:4 Turn, O Lord, and deliver my nefesh. Save me because of your mercy. 5 For in death no one remembers you. In sheol who praises you?

Of course, theirs was a misinterpretation and verses like the ones you quoted show that "spirits" in sheol / hades are conscious.

 

[The Righterzpen]

This sounds like a good description of pharisaic beliefs. I still think the sadducees believed sheol / hades was a place of silence.

Interesting; (I think you are correct.) There's a verse Matthew 22:23 that speaks of the sadducees not believing in a resurrection at all. So it makes sense that they would believe that not only do the unregenerate dead have no conscience. Apparently they didn't believe anyone did.

That comes out of Greek philosophy. (Hellenization) Which makes sense too because the sadducees were far more sympathetic to the greater Greco-Roman culture than the pharisees were.

 

[Andrewn]

The corpse goes into the grave; yet without the breath of life that makes the soul "living"; the consciousness of the soul is someplace other than "the grave".

Praise God that after Christ's salvations our spirits no longer have to wait in the spirit prison / hades but rather in paradise.

I like the expressions you used for eternal life:

- the breath of life that makes the soul "living."
- the consciousness of the soul.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Is this your only answer, regardless of the question?

Yahweh's Word is truth, regardless of the question. Most answers are not truth on the forum.

 

[Phil W]

I'm only aware of Adventists and JW's who believe that hades is the grave. Usually, JW's don't consider themselves Christians as you do.


Like you do, the Sadducees considered sheol / hades to be the grave: a place of "silence" to which all humans go. When they questioned the Lord Jesus, he answered:

Luk 20:37 Even Moses demonstrated that the dead are raised—in the passage about the burning bush, when he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 He isn’t the God of the dead but of the living. To him they are all alive.

Also in Mar 12:26-27 with slightly different wording. In saying this, the Lord sided with the Pharisees and they complemented his answer.

If the dead are raised, (And they will be), from where are they raised?
Isn't it from the grave?
I feel that grave and hades-sheol and even hell are interchangeable words.
Please be advised that this isn't anything I have studied at length.
As for those seemingly raised already, I did mention earlier that God is not confined by time, so can deal with the dead, as raised, whenever He wants.

 

[Andrewn]

If the dead are raised, (And they will be), from where are they raised? Isn't it from the grave? I feel that grave and hades-sheol and even hell are interchangeable words.

Physical death is separation of human spirit and flesh. The general resurrection is rejoining of their spirit to their flesh. The flesh is raised from the grave. The spirit joins the flesh:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. Books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one by his works.

As for those seemingly raised already, I did mention earlier that God is not confined by time, so can deal with the dead, as raised, whenever He wants.

Interesting you raise this point. Are you thinking of Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the Jerusalem saints?

 

[Phil W]

Physical death is separation of human spirit and flesh. The general resurrection is rejoining of their spirit to their flesh. The flesh is raised from the grave. The spirit joins the flesh:

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, standing before God. Books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the Book of Life. The dead were judged according to their works as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead who were in it, and Death and Hades delivered up the dead who were in them. And they were judged, each one by his works.

Ok...

Interesting you raise this point. Are you thinking of Enoch, Elijah, Moses, and the Jerusalem saints?

Neither Enoch nor Elijah died. Both were taken up to God.
I was thinking of the 24 elders seated around the throne of God in Revelations too.

 

[Andrewn]

I was thinking of the 24 elders seated around the throne of God in Revelations too.

Interesting, I've always thought of them as a symbol rather than people already raised.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Praise God that after Christ's salvations our spirits no longer have to wait in the spirit prison / hades but rather in paradise.

I like the expressions you used for eternal life:

- the breath of life that makes the soul "living."
- the consciousness of the soul.

Well it is Biblical language; "breath of life" and "living soul".

But of greater gratitude definitely! I'm whole heartedly with you here. No longer spirits in prison. Even now; though we still be alive. We've been freed from both the prison of our own sin, as well as the prison of condemnation that would rightfully bring upon us!

 

[The Righterzpen]

Neither Enoch nor Elijah died. Both were taken up to God.
I was thinking of the 24 elders seated around the throne of God in Revelations too.

Interesting, I've always thought of them as a symbol rather than people already raised.

Interesting. I never thought of them as literally physically raised either; but that doesn't mean that they're not?

Symbolically, I've heard people say they represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. (Don't know if that's true or not; I'll have to look up "24 elders" in the Bible.) But if they represented those two groups literally raised; not sure how one would make that concept fit in context of Revelation seeing how not all the 12 apostles were physically deceased at that point. So in that sense, I'm not inclined to think they are those specific individuals; although granted, they may be specific individuals?

 

[Phil W]

Interesting. I never thought of them as literally physically raised either; but that doesn't mean that they're not?

Symbolically, I've heard people say they represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. (Don't know if that's true or not; I'll have to look up "24 elders" in the Bible.) But if they represented those two groups literally raised; not sure how one would make that concept fit in context of Revelation seeing how not all the 12 apostles were physically deceased at that point. So in that sense, I'm not inclined to think they are those specific individuals; although granted, they may be specific individuals?

For all we know, they may be Christians who haven't even been born yet.
I tend to think it is more likely stalwarts of the faith of the OT...Elijah, Noah, and Moses etc.

 

[Andrewn]

I never thought of them as literally physically raised either; but that doesn't mean that they're not? Symbolically, I've heard people say they represent the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles. (Don't know if that's true or not; I'll have to look up "24 elders" in the Bible.)

This is the usual interpretation. But, thanks to google, I found that JW's believe the 24 elders are indeed saints who were resurrected between 1918 & 1935:

"since Jesus was enthroned in the fall of 1914, the resurrection of his faithful anointed followers began three and a half years later, in the spring of 1918."

"the correct identity of the great crowd [Rev 7:9-15] was revealed to God’s anointed servants on earth in 1935. If one of the 24 elders was used to convey that important truth, he would have had to be resurrected to heaven by 1935 at the latest. That would indicate that the first resurrection began sometime between 1914 and 1935."

"The identity of that great crowd is revealed to John by one of the 24 elders, and these elders represent the 144,000 joint heirs with Christ in their heavenly glory."

“The First Resurrection”—Now Under Way! — Watchtower ONLINE LIBRARY

 

[The Righterzpen]

This is the usual interpretation. But, thanks to google, I found that JW's believe

......

I looked up "24 elders" and the only word for word verbatim combination of "24" and "elders" shows up in Revelation.

1 Chronicles 27:1-15 though, speaks of "chief fathers and captains and officers who serve the king" ruled in "courses" (like the priests' service in the temple) through the year of 24 thousand to a course. Each course was a month long.

So translate this into the language in Revelation. At the point the "lamb that was slain" appears in heaven to open the scrolls, the 24 seats are filled by the elders. The "1000 year reign of the lamb" begins with the resurrection. And so thus the 24 elders who are ruling with the Lamb for that "course" take their seats.

Compare this to we (the saints) "live and reign with Christ 1000 years".

Besides these though; there are some interesting other "24" references.

The curtains in the tabernacle / temple was 20 cubits long and 4 cubits wide. (Exodus 26:2) The gate of the court is 20 cubits high with 4 pillars and 4 sockets. (Exodus 27:16)

Upon dedication 24 oxen bullocks were offered for the peace offering; (and 60 rams, goats and lambs) Numbers 7:88

24 thousand died in the plague. Numbers 25:9

A second giant that David slew (Goliath's brother) had 24 fingers and toes. 2 Samuel 21:19-21, 1 Chronicles 20:6

Baasha reigned over Israel 24 years; commencing in the 3rd year of Asa king of Judah. This was shortly after the dividing of the kingdom. They were both the 3rd king of the individual kingdoms. Asa was the first obedient king of Judah. Israel had no obedient to God kings following Solomon. All obedient kings ruled between 20 and 40 years. One reigned 42 years. (Uzziah)

Of the disobedient kings in Judah; Manasseh ruled 52 years. Everyone else was under 20. Of Israel only one other evil king also ruled 51 years (Jeroboam II - but he was a co-regent). Jehu was the next longest reigning wicked king in Israel at 28 years. Everyone else was under 20 there too. (Most reigning about 10 years.)

Saul, David and Solomon all reigned 40 years a piece.

So seems of an "interesting coincidence" that all "righteous rulers" "rule" 24 to 40 years whereas wicked rulers ruling over 24 years is an anomaly.

24 thousand returned to Israel ahead of everyone else to erect the temple. 6 thousand of those were officers and judges 1 Chronicles 23:4

On the 24th day of the month, upon returning from Babylon, Israel was assembled to hear the reading of the law. Nehemiah 9:1-3

And that is the last reference to the number 24.

So if we look at this for "general themes" 24 is the minimum years of rulership for the righteous. 24 is also a number of judgement. (24 finger and toe enemy, 24 thousand die in a plague) 24 is also a number of call to repentance. (24th day of the month is the reading of the law hence coming out of captivity)

So, 24 seems to be symbolic of redemption and the commencement of being a king reigning in the kingdom.

So based on all this; I'd conclude that the 24 elders are symbolic of all the saints that reign with Christ throughout the course of history. It's an "office" a believer "courses through" more than it's any individual person.

 

[Andrewn]

So, 24 seems to be symbolic of redemption and the commencement of being a king reigning in the kingdom. So based on all this; I'd conclude that the 24 elders are symbolic of all the saints that reign with Christ throughout the course of history. It's an "office" a believer "courses through" more than it's any individual person.

Interpreters have noted a correspondence to 1Ch 24:1-10. This passage describes how King David divided Aaron's descendants into 24 priestly divisions, which served according to a weekly rotation system. This allowed each division to serve for two weeks each year. The Priest Zechariah belonged to the division of Abijah, which was the eighth division.

 

[The Righterzpen]

Interpreters have noted a correspondence to 1Ch 24:1-10. This passage describes how King David divided Aaron's descendants into 24 priestly divisions, which served according to a weekly rotation system. This allowed each division to serve for two weeks each year. The Priest Zechariah belonged to the division of Abijah, which was the eighth division.

Yes, definitely a common thread there. Not sure how I missed that in Chronicles 24? (unless it's written "four and twenty") and I read too fast?

Interesting juxtaposed as to how the elders were divided into 12 courses of 2400. The priests were 24 course of (how ever many were suitable). Hum??? Wonder what that means?