The spirits in prison

[Jermayn]

Agreed. Not sure what connection you're making here to my Abraham's bosom explanation?

I always though of Abraham's bosom as a place that Abraham's descendants who were obedient spent their time, waiting for the time of Jesus Christ. Either Abraham's bosom existed before Abraham and people were placed there because there was no law yet given, or there's a third place people could be sent to prior to Jesus's resurrection. That's just my thoughts though.

 

[Phil W]

In the OT, they did not think that dead folks imagine (nor think) anything.

Interesting, do you have any scripture for that?
It is sad that some have dreamed up doctrines dealing with second chances after death to still be saved in spite of the life lived.
Things like limbo and purgatory. Venial sins and mortal sins...as if there were any difference.
And then there are the indulgences...
All false doctrines designed to ease the fear of the Lord's upcoming wrath for their sins.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Interesting, do you have any scripture for that?

I don't remember where, but I think King David noted that the ones (believers and pagans) in sheol/ the grave, don't do anything, don't know anything, don't remember anything, don't praise the Lord, or something like that.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I always though of Abraham's bosom as a place that Abraham's descendants who were obedient spent their time, waiting for the time of Jesus Christ. Either Abraham's bosom existed before Abraham and people were placed there because there was no law yet given, or there's a third place people could be sent to prior to Jesus's resurrection. That's just my thoughts though.

If interested, as Abraham's bosom was a belief of one of the Jewish Saducees or Pharisees or other, Jesus was using that as an example to them, against their own beliefs, not as if it was real. This might be found explained in some websites, but difficult to find. It used to be easier to find.

 

[Phil W]

I don't remember where, but I think King David noted that the ones (believers and pagans) in sheol/ the grave, don't do anything, don't know anything, don't remember anything, don't praise the Lord, or something like that.

You are right, and I do remember that line of thought from somewhere.
Thanks for the memory boost.

 

[Jermayn]

If interested, as Abraham's bosom was a belief of one of the Jewish Saducees or Pharisees or other, Jesus was using that as an example to them, against their own beliefs, not as if it was real. This might be found explained in some websites, but difficult to find. It used to be easier to find.

Interesting. I'll have to look into that. Thanks.

 

[The Righterzpen]

I always though of Abraham's bosom as a place that Abraham's descendants who were obedient spent their time, waiting for the time of Jesus Christ. Either Abraham's bosom existed before Abraham and people were placed there because there was no law yet given, or there's a third place people could be sent to prior to Jesus's resurrection. That's just my thoughts though.

Well, we have no other place spoken of in Scripture regarding "holding of the (atoned) dead" other than Abraham's bosom; So that's a good question from that vanish point.

One possibility though is that God said to Abraham "That in your seed (Christ) shall all nations be blessed." So in that sense "all believing pre-resurrection dead" would fit too because those atoned for by Christ are still "Abraham's seed" because they are "in Christ".

Jesus also told the Pharisees that those who are Abraham's children are those who obeyed God, such as Abraham did. So, that makes sense too. There are several verses in the epistles about who is really a "Jew". (Those circumcised of the heart.)

"Abraham" means "exalted father" and "bosom" in the passage in Luke is "fold of the garment over the chest that creates a pocket". So to say these people are in "Exalted father's pocket" makes sense too.

Also could be a metaphoric way of saying they are "in the Father" / as being "in Christ in the Father". Jesus describes Himself as "in the bosom of the Father". Same type of usage of the word "bosom".

 

[Andrewn]

It was the waiting place for righteous spirits of Adam, Eve, Abraham, David, and many others who lived before and after Abraham's time. These righteous spirits couldn't be redeemed before the salvation that Christ offered on the cross. The Lord Jesus freed these spirits, with the repentant thief, as I described in message #4.

Thanks for the answer, but I can't agree with it. Those dead folks had their chance to live obediently and will pay the price. Men live, die, and then face the final judgement. (Heb 9:27)

It is sad that some have dreamed up doctrines dealing with second chances after death to still be saved in spite of the life lived.

You probably didn't understand my messages. No one here suggested "second chances after death." Do you believe that Adam, Eve, Abraham, David, and OT prophets are still in hades?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Did you 'dream' this up ?

Do you really believe that Adam, Eve, Abraham, David, and OT prophets are completely lost and doomed to eternal "pay the price?"

======================================

You probably didn't understand my message. No one here "dreamed up doctrines dealing with second chances after death."

It seems totally that the first quote above is dreamed up.

 

[Andrewn]

Did you 'dream' this up ?

Last night I fell asleep in a satellite dish… my dreams were broadcast all over the world.
Steven Wright

 

[Phil W]

Well, we have no other place spoken of in Scripture regarding "holding of the (atoned) dead" other than Abraham's bosom; So that's a good question from that vantage point.
One possibility though is that God said to Abraham "That in your seed (Christ) shall all nations be blessed." So in that sense "all believing pre-resurrection dead" would fit too because those atoned for by Christ are still "Abraham's seed" because they are "in Christ".
Jesus also told the Pharisees that those who are Abraham's children are those who obeyed God, such as Abraham did. So, that makes sense too. There are several verses in the epistles about who is really a "Jew". (Those circumcised of the heart.)
"Abraham" means "exalted father" and "bosom" in the passage in Luke is "fold of the garment over the chest that creates a pocket". So to say these people are in "Exalted father's pocket" makes sense too.
Also could be a metaphoric way of saying they are "in the Father" / as being "in Christ in the Father". Jesus describes Himself as "in the bosom of the Father". Same type of usage of the word "bosom".

You gotta remember though, "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:7-8)
Not all those descended from Abraham are counted "children of God".

 

[Phil W]

You probably didn't understand my messages. No one here suggested "second chances after death."

Those thinking that Jesus descended into hell to proselytize the already dead are thinking that.

Do you believe that Adam, Eve, Abraham, David, and OT prophets are still in hades?

From our perspective, yes, they are still in the grave.
From God's perspective, no.
God is not confined by time.

 

[The Righterzpen]

You gotta remember though, "Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed." (Rom 9:7-8)
Not all those descended from Abraham are counted "children of God".

Did you not read what I wrote? Because I basically said the same thing.

 

[Andrewn]

Those thinking that Jesus descended into hell to proselytize the already dead are thinking that.

Not true. The Righterzpen and I explained this several times already.

From our perspective, yes, they are still in the grave.

Ah, your'e an SDA. You believe that the spirit prison / hades is the grave. This explains your position. I don't think Yeshuaslavejeff would agree with you.

 

[Phil W]

Did you not read what I wrote? Because I basically said the same thing.

Yes, but I was just strengthening your POV.

 

[Phil W]

Not true. The Righterzpen and I explained this several times already.

You and I have differing beliefs...not so uncommon on a forum, eh?

Ah, your'e an SDA. You believe that the spirit prison / hades is the grave. This explains your position. I don't think Yeshuaslavejeff would agree with you.

I'm not SDA.
But I do think of hades as the grave.
Have you a quick scripture to nullify that belief?

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Last night I fell asleep in a satellite dish… my dreams were broadcast all over the world.
Steven Wright

It is possible to broadcast videos all over the world thru various media.
It is not possible, according to God's Word, Plan and Purpose, for anyone to get a so-called 'second chance' in the world to come, as that would contradict all of His Word, Plan and Purpose.

 

[Andrewn]

I'm not SDA. But I do think of hades as the grave.

I'm only aware of Adventists and JW's who believe that hades is the grave. Usually, JW's don't consider themselves Christians as you do.

Have you a quick scripture to nullify that belief?

Like you do, the Sadducees considered sheol / hades to be the grave: a place of "silence" to which all humans go. When they questioned the Lord Jesus, he answered:

Luk 20:37 Even Moses demonstrated that the dead are raised—in the passage about the burning bush, when he speaks of the Lord as the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob. 38 He isn’t the God of the dead but of the living. To him they are all alive.

Also in Mar 12:26-27 with slightly different wording. In saying this, the Lord sided with the Pharisees and they complemented his answer.

 

[Andrewn]

No one here suggested "second chances after death." Do you believe that Adam, Eve, Abraham, David, and OT prophets are still in hades?

It is not possible, according to God's Word, Plan and Purpose, for anyone to get a so-called 'second chance' in the world to come, as that would contradict all of His Word, Plan and Purpose.

Is this your only answer, regardless of the question?

 

[The Righterzpen]

Like you do, the Sadducees considered sheol / hades to be the grave: a place of "silence" to which all humans go.

I looked this up in the Hebrew once. (Place of silence.) And from what I came to understand; it would be more accurately translated as "place where they are not heard" more than it would be accurate to say they have no conscious existence.

They are "not heard" because they are condemned for their sin; (such as in the rich man pleading for mercy). Which this interpretation gives credence when in Jonah 2:2 he speaks of "I cried from the belly of hell and You heard me..." Who would God hear crying from the belly of hell but someone who has no sin. (Thus by implication shouldn't be there.) This jives with "You have not left my soul in hell, nor suffered your holy one to see corruption".

I agree with @Andrewn that "the grave" and Sheol / Hades are not the same place. The corpse goes into the grave; yet without the breath of life that makes the soul "living"; the consciousness of the soul is someplace other than "the grave".

Also, I'd have to look this up again; but I believe it's correct. In some of the places "grave" is used in English, it is actually the word "Sheol". (Other places it's a different word meaning "burial place".) So in the "Sheol" places I'd say it would be safe to assume the passages are referring to the consciousness of the dead.