The Spin Is So Bad, I'm Dizzy

[rambot]

It is Hamas devaluing human life. No conscientious leader of a nation goes into a war knowing--and Hamas certainly knows--that they will suffer a 10:1 casualty rate against the enemy. That's why the Cold War worked and ultimately why it ended.

So what is Hamas supposed to do?
It's not like Israelis and the Israeli government have treated them that well. Are they supposed to take that day in day out abuse? How many UN resolutions against Israel need to occur?

If Israel has been treating Hamas so well, (NO idea the level of ignorance needed to hold that opinion), why does Hamas consistently have no trouble getting soliders into their army?

 

[Chesterton]

So what is Hamas supposed to do?
It's not like Israelis and the Israeli government have treated them that well. Are they supposed to take that day in day out abuse? How many UN resolutions against Israel need to occur?

So long as Hamas was pretending to have peaceful intentions, Israel was treating Gazans quite well, offering more and more access to good paying jobs inside Israel. And look what it got Israel. Many of the Gazan civilians who worked in the border towns gave detailed information to Hamas about the Oct. 7 targets.

If Israel has been treating Hamas so well, (NO idea the level of ignorance needed to hold that opinion), why does Hamas consistently have no trouble getting soliders into their army?

Because Palestinian children are taught to hate and kill Jews from the day they're born. Look up the Gazan children's TV show "Tomorrow's Pioneers".

 

[rambot]

So long as Hamas was pretending to have peaceful intentions, Israel was treating Gazans quite well, offering more and more access to good paying jobs inside Israel. And look what it got Israel.

1) Remember: These people are not permitted to move outside of their sections freely. That alone suggests they aren't getting treated well.
2) Their property randomly gets annexed by Jewish settlers with 0 consequence or renumeration.
3) There are PLENTLY of instances of folks being held without a criminal trial OR without charges even being laid.
4) Children are also getting held without charges.
5) Israel controls EVERYTHING going into the areas. There are examples of Israeli soldiers destroying the few food goods that have been delivered into Gaza (during peace time). Those same soldiers, without basis, threaten Gazans who challenge them on this destruction.

Many of the Gazan civilians who worked in the border towns gave detailed information to Hamas about the Oct. 7 targets.

You have a source that isn't rabidly pro Israel to support that?

 

[rambot]

It is Hamas devaluing human life. No conscientious leader of a nation goes into a war knowing--and Hamas certainly knows--that they will suffer a 10:1 casualty rate against the enemy. That's why the Cold War worked and ultimately why it ended.

Interesting.... So it's Hamas' fault that Israel has a moral obligation to kill 10 times as many Gazans as Israeli's die? And they have that right because Israelis DO value the lives of Gazans.

All the sense being made is making ME dizzy now.


Like that abused wife. She should know better than to call the police because her partner would then really beat the snot out of her. She should really smarten up and stop trying to hold him accountable for his misdeeds!

 

[Chesterton]

1) Remember: These people are not permitted to move outside of their sections freely. That alone suggests they aren't getting treated well.
2) Their property randomly gets annexed by Jewish settlers with 0 consequence or renumeration.
3) There are PLENTLY of instances of folks being held without a criminal trial OR without charges even being laid.
4) Children are also getting held without charges.
5) Israel controls EVERYTHING going into the areas. There are examples of Israeli soldiers destroying the few food goods that have been delivered into Gaza (during peace time). Those same soldiers, without basis, threaten Gazans who challenge them on this destruction.

You have a source that isn't rabidly pro Israel to support that?

Out of the 5 things, you mentioned two half-truths. Anyway, go buy a home in a neighborhood where you're surrounded by neighbors sworn to kill you from the moment you move in. Walk a mile in Israel's shoes then maybe I'll care about your opinion.

 

[RDKirk]

So what is Hamas supposed to do?
It's not like Israelis and the Israeli government have treated them that well. Are they supposed to take that day in day out abuse? How many UN resolutions against Israel need to occur?

If Israel has been treating Hamas so well, (NO idea the level of ignorance needed to hold that opinion), why does Hamas consistently have no trouble getting soliders into their army?

Hamas took particularly heinous actions which seem specifically designed to provoke maximum rage in Israel without actually doing any substantive damage to Israel's military ability to retaliate. That's like pulling hair in a fist fight.

My suspicion is that Hamas had been given reason to believe the inevitable heavy-handed Israeli retaliation would expand into a wider multi-front Arab-Israeli war.

But that didn't happen; no other Muslim nations joined the fight.

Who might have given them that encouragement? I'd suspect Hezbollah (which is Shia Muslim like Iran, not Wahabbi Muslim like Saudi Arabia). What Hezbollah gains, at least, is a disruption in the current Israel-Saudi armistice process, which would free Saudi military resources to engage in the proxy Saudi Arabia-Iran war. Hezbollah has for about a decade been preaching of a "Wahabbi (Saudi)-Zionist" conspiracy. Already, Saudi Arabia has had to put that armistice with Israel on hold, even if they aren't joining a fight against Israel.

Hezbollah also gains from increased negative world opinion against Israel, because most of the world (like you) views this as a body-for-body, tit-for-tat spat instead of as the existential conflict that Israel sees it.

 

[rambot]

Hamas took particularly heinous actions which seem specifically designed to provoke maximum rage in Israel without actually doing any substantive damage to Israel's military ability to retaliate. That's like pulling hair in a fist fight.

My suspicion is that Hamas had been given reason to believe the inevitable heavy-handed Israeli retaliation would expand into a wider multi-front Arab-Israeli war.

But that didn't happen; no other Muslim nations joined the fight.

Who might have given them that encouragement? I'd suspect Hezbollah (which is Shia Muslim like Iran, not Wahabbi Muslim like Saudi Arabia). What Hezbollah gains, at least, is a disruption in the current Israel-Saudi armistice process, which would free Saudi military resources to engage in the proxy Saudi Arabia-Iran war. Hezbollah has for about a decade been preaching of a "Wahabbi (Saudi)-Zionist" conspiracy. Already, Saudi Arabia has had to put that armistice with Israel on hold, even if they aren't joining a fight against Israel.

Hezbollah also gains from increased negative world opinion against Israel, because most of the world (like you) views this as a body-for-body, tit-for-tat spat instead of as the existential conflict that Israel sees it.

I appreciate this post, but it's all opinion....though I supposed the whole discussion really is just opinion anyways.

Out of the 5 things, you mentioned two half-truths. Anyway, go buy a home in a neighborhood where you're surrounded by neighbors sworn to kill you from the moment you move in. Walk a mile in Israel's shoes then maybe I'll care about your opinion.

Utter nonsense this post. Seriously, why bother to post it? There's nothing substantive here other than a misguided attempt to suggest I am unaware about Israel's struggles.

If I was wrong, it would require no effort on your part to disprove anything so..... why would I care about your opinion? It seems to be SO weak and you aren't even willing to disprove something that is SO obviously wrong (or a lie...characterize it how you will)...

 

[RDKirk]

I appreciate this post, but it's all opinion....though I supposed the whole discussion really is just opinion anyways.

Some things we know:

1. We know that Hezbollah supports Hamas, and is one of the few entities that openly does. They have said so.

2. We know that Hezbollah is also associated with Iran. They have said so.

3. We know that Hezbollah is opposed to the Israel-Saudi accords. They have said so.

4. We know that Iran has been in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia for decades.

I used the words "I suspect" in my concept that Hezbollah is attempting to keep "the enemy of my enemy from becoming the ally of my enemy."

In all the players in this situation, Hezbollah is the only one that wins.

 

[rambot]

4. We know that Iran has been in a proxy war with Saudi Arabia for decades.

I know you have a more extensive background with your work experience (IIRC), but I did not really know about this: What has that "proxy war" looked like?

 

[RDKirk]

I know you have a more extensive background with your work experience (IIRC), but I did not really know about this: What has that "proxy war" looked like?

Iran–Saudi Arabia proxy conflict - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[rambot]

Israeli Supreme Court rejects challenge to open-fire rules

From 5 years ago.
But yeah. Israel treats them well.

 

[RDKirk]

View attachment 340148



Israeli Supreme Court rejects challenge to open-fire rules

From 5 years ago.
But yeah. Israel treats them well.

I don't know how the Israeli Supreme Court works, and probably neither do you, but there could be purely technical reasons why the court rejected that request.

 

[rambot]

I don't know how the Israeli Supreme Court works, and probably neither do you, but there could be purely technical reasons why the court rejected that request.

Could be but it's not.

They wanted to continue to be able to shoot at protestors.

 

[RDKirk]

Could be but it's not.

They wanted to continue to be able to shoot at protestors.

Describe to me how it was not, since you're so confident.

How are propositions presented to the Israeli Supreme Court? In the US Supreme Court, organizations don't just submit requests for summary rulings...that's called "legislation," and the courts don't do legislation. There would have to be a lawsuit filed in lower courts, there would have to be an aggrieved party with legal standing, et cetera.

So, how is it done in the Israeli Supreme Court? What were the details of this case? What were the legal arguments?

 

[rambot]

Describe to me how it was not, since you're so confident.

How are propositions presented to the Israeli Supreme Court? In the US Supreme Court, organizations don't just submit requests for summary rulings...that's called "legislation," and the courts don't do legislation. There would have to be a lawsuit filed in lower courts, there would have to be an aggrieved party with legal standing, et cetera.

So, how is it done in the Israeli Supreme Court? What were the details of this case? What were the legal arguments?

I didn't include the source for fun.

Why should I defend against your hypothetical?

Article said the ruling was unanimous.

 

[Chesterton]

Could be but it's not.

They wanted to continue to be able to shoot at protestors.

Ah, your expert legal mind has figured out that Israelis just want to shoot at innocent people. Or maybe you've fallen for the current wave of neo-Nazi Jew hating propaganda.

 

[Chesterton]

...there would have to be an aggrieved party with legal standing, et cetera.

That would be my first guess, although there could be many other things. A "human rights group" can't just walk into a court and request things on behalf of other people.

 

[Ana the Ist]

1) Remember: These people are not permitted to move outside of their sections freely. That alone suggests they aren't getting treated well.

1. Remember, Palestine has arguably only ever engaged in one pursuit since their creation, the destruction of Israel.

2) Their property randomly gets annexed by Jewish settlers with 0 consequence or renumeration.

2. Some is annexed, some bought, regardless...it's funny to watch people complain about this but not the 13,000 rockets and mortars fired at Israeli citizens for the past 10 years.

3) There are PLENTLY of instances of folks being held without a criminal trial OR without charges even being laid.

I'm sure there are...lots of justice systems are worse than ours. Not that long ago...you could be detained and interrogated for 3 months in Japan. Ever wonder how they got that high confession rate?

4) Children are also getting held without charges.

Probably the best thing to happen to them if true. Gaza is no place for children atm.

5) Israel controls EVERYTHING going into the areas. There are examples of Israeli soldiers destroying the few food goods that have been delivered into Gaza (during peace time). Those same soldiers, without basis, threaten Gazans who challenge them on this destruction.

Yup. When you commit two extended periods of terrorism, launch rockets at your neighbors regularly, and reject anything short of the destruction of your neighbor, you might end up treated like criminals.

You have a source that isn't rabidly pro Israel to support that?

Does anyone really need one?

 

[Ana the Ist]

Ah, your expert legal mind has figured out that Israelis just want to shoot at innocent people. Or maybe you've fallen for the current wave of neo-Nazi Jew hating propaganda.

Remember way back like....2 years ago when people on the left were lecturing everyone about racism and how to fix it?

I feel bad for any Jewish students who bought that....now being chased around campus.

The left has become lousy with racists ever since they adopted identity politics.

 

[rambot]

Ah, your expert legal mind has figured out that Israelis just want to shoot at innocent people. Or maybe you've fallen for the current wave of neo-Nazi Jew hating propaganda.

I already explained, they wanted to continue to be able to shoot protestors.

They felt the protestors that they were holding behind their barbed wire fences were a danger so they wanted to be able to shoot them when they didn't have weapons.

You don't need a legal mind to be able to read a link. Anyone could do it. Even you if you'd want.