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The Soul - When Does It Awake ?

Apple Sky

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Believe it or not I remember being in the Womb, I remember awaking just as I were about to be born & thinking to my self, 'I don't want to go anywhere, I want to stay here asleep where it's nice and warm'.

So I reckon the soul awakens the moment a baby is about to be born.

There is an interesting article about the soul in the book 'The Legend of the Jews' by Louis Ginzberg It reads;

THE SOUL OF MAN
The care which God exercised in fashioning every detail of the body of man is as naught in comparison with His solicitude for the human soul. The soul of man was created on the first day, for it is the spirit of God moving upon the face of the waters. Thus, instead of being the last, man is really the first work of creation.


This spirit, or, to call it by its usual name, the soul of man, possesses five different powers. By means of one of them she escapes from the body every night, rises up to heaven, and fetches new life thence for man.
With the soul of Adam the souls of all the generations of men were created. They are stored up in a promptuary, in the seventh of the heavens, whence they are drawn as they are needed for human body after human body.

The soul and body of man are united in this way: When a woman has conceived, the Angel of the Night, Lailah, carries the sperm before God, and God decrees what manner of human being shall become of it--whether it shall be male or female, strong or weak, rich or poor, beautiful or ugly, long or short, fat or thin, and what all its other qualities shall be.
Piety and wickedness alone are left to the determination of man himself.

Then God makes a sign to the angel appointed over the souls, saying, "Bring Me the soul so-and-so, which is hidden in Paradise, whose name is so-and-so, and whose form is so-and-so." The angel brings the designated soul, and she bows down when she appears in the presence of God, and prostrates herself before Him. At that moment, God issues the command, "Enter this sperm." The soul opens her mouth, and pleads: "O Lord of the world! I am well pleased with the world in which I have been living since the day on which Thou didst call me into being. Why dost Thou now desire to have me enter this impure sperm, I who am holy and pure, and a part of Thy glory?" God consoles her: "The world which I shall cause thee to enter is better than the world in which thou hast lived hitherto, and when I created thee, it was only for this purpose."

The soul is then forced to enter the sperm against her will, and the angel carries her back to the womb of the mother. Two angels are detailed to watch that she shall not leave it, nor drop out of it, and a light is set above her, whereby the soul can see from one end of the world to the other. In the morning an angel carries her to Paradise, and shows her the righteous, who sit there in their glory, with crowns upon their heads. The angel then says to the soul, "Dost thou know who these are?" She replies in the negative, and the angel goes on: "These whom thou beholdest here were formed, like unto thee, in the womb of their mother. When they came into the world, they observed God's Torah and His commandments. Therefore they became the partakers of this bliss which thou seest them enjoy. Know, also thou wilt one day depart from the world below, and if thou wilt observe God's Torah, then wilt thou be found worthy of sitting with these pious ones. But if not, thou wilt be doomed to the other place."

In the evening, the angel takes the soul to hell, and there points out the sinners whom the Angels of Destruction are smiting with fiery scourges, the sinners all the while crying out Woe! Woe! but no mercy is shown unto them. The angel then questions the soul as before, "Dost thou know who these are?" and as before the reply is negative. The angel continues: "These who are consumed with fire were created like unto thee. When they were put into the world, they did not observe God's Torah and His commandments. Therefore have they come to this disgrace which thou seest them suffer. Know, thy destiny is also to depart from the world. Be just, therefore, and not wicked, that thou mayest gain the future world."

file:///T|/Web%20Pages/Chip/E-Books/misc/Legends/loj104.htm (4 of 22)12/18/2004 9:12:10 AM Chapter II: Adam
Between morning and evening the angel carries the soul around, and shows her where she will live and where she will die, and the place where she will buried, and he takes her through the whole world, and points out the just and the sinners and all things. In the evening, he replaces her in the womb of the mother, and there she remains for nine months. When the time arrives for her to emerge from the womb into the open world, the same angel addresses the soul, "The time has come for thee to go abroad into the open world." The soul demurs, "Why dost thou want to make me go forth into the open world?" The angel replies: "Know that as thou wert formed against thy will, so now thou wilt be born against thy will, and against thy will thou shalt die, and against thy will thou shalt give account of thyself before the King of kings, the Holy One, blessed be He." But the soul is reluctant to leave her place. Then the angel fillips the babe on the nose, extinguishes the light at his head, and brings him forth into the world against his will.
Immediately the child forgets all his soul has seen and learnt, and he comes into the world crying, for he loses a place of shelter and security and rest.

When the time arrives for man to quit this world, the same angel appears and asks him, "Dost thou recognize me?" And man replies, "Yes; but why dost thou come to me to-day, and thou didst come on no other day?" The angel says, "To take thee away from the world, for the time of thy departure has arrived." Then man falls to weeping, and his voice penetrates to all ends of the world, yet no creature hears his voice, except the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] alone. Man remonstrates with the angel, "From two worlds thou didst take me, and into this world thou didst bring me." But the angel reminds him: "Did I not tell thee that thou wert formed against thy will, and thou wouldst be born against thy will, and against thy will thou wouldst die? And against thy will thou wilt have to give account and reckoning of thyself before the Holy One, blessed be He."

 

RandyPNW

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Believe it or not I remember being in the Womb, I remember awaking just as I were about to be born & thinking to my self, 'I don't want to go anywhere, I want to stay here asleep where it's nice and warm'.

So I reckon the soul awakens the moment a baby is about to be born.

There is an interesting article about the soul in the book 'The Legend of the Jews' by Louis Ginzberg It reads;
Well, I suppose your story is designed to entertain, but the important question remains: when does the soul awake? Since the unborn child, or fetus, is viewed as viable at an earlier stage, and a future baby at any stage, it is murder to destroy it apart from exceptional cases.

It doesn't matter how "awake" it is. "Woke" people can conceive of it any way they like, but it is based on their own imagination, and not God's revelation.

Obviously, consciousness takes place only at birth, and not before. That goes without saying. One can "murder" an unconscious being, including fetuses.
 
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Apple Sky

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Obviously, consciousness takes place only at birth, and not before.

I suppose, first we must ask, 'What is the soul' ?

Is it consciousness ?

Adam was just a body until God breathed the breath of life into him.
 
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RandyPNW

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I suppose, first we must ask, 'What is the soul' ?

Is it consciousness ?

Adam was just a body until God breathed the breath of life into him.
I should think the soul has "material substance," even though it is not "physical" in terms of earthly elements. It is "who we are" as individual personalities, designed to be encased in bodies for expression in the earthly realm.

So yes, having a soul we have consciousness. Even in our sleep we have a certain level of consciousness--even if it is not an "awake" kind of consciousness. Dreams are a form of consciousness, lacking awareness in the full real life sense.

When we die we do not lose consciousness either. Because we are "souls," we maintain consciousness forever, even when we are "unconscious." I know--sounds like a contradiction! Don't know how else to put it?
 
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Apple Sky

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When we die we do not lose consciousness either. Because we are "souls," we maintain consciousness forever, even when we are "unconscious." I know--sounds like a contradiction! Don't know how else to put it?

I know, the soul is very hard to describe.

In the story in the OP it states that when we die we are visited by the same angel who we recognize from when we were a fetus, this angel takes us home, hopefully home is heaven.

People who have had a NDE tell of seeing a bright light & of someone who they recognize, so do we all have our very own guardian angel ?

Each night when we sleep the soul is allowed to wonder off on it's own to experience what we call dreams, are these dreams to rectify our wrongs & to replenish us for the next day which is the present a gift from God ?

:praying:
 
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RandyPNW

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I know, the soul is very hard to describe.

In the story in the OP it states that when we die we are visited by the same angel who we recognize from when we were a fetus, this angel takes us home, hopefully home is heaven.

People who have had a NDE tell of seeing a bright light & of someone who they recognize, so do we all have our very own guardian angel ?

Each night when we sleep the soul is allowed to wonder off on it's own to experience what we call dreams, are these dreams to rectify our wrongs & to replenish us for the next day which is the present a gift from God ?

:praying:
In Job we hear it said that Dreams are sometimes a warning from God in the night. God seems to bring back issues that we've been facing so as to confront them as potential threats to our spirituality. Nightmares can be either persecution from the Enemy or warnings that we've been getting too close to the occult.

My former church in CA, Melodyland Christian Center, had a pastor, Ralph Wilkerson, who broke ground in writing about Death experiences--"Beyond and Back." I don't recall what was in the book, but I believe it contained a number of similarities from one person's experience to another.

I don't know how much stock to place in these claimed experiences, but I do find them fascinating. We all hope to experience what we believe--a life after death with the Lord forever and eternal blessedness. We know this by faith because faith has as its object God Himself. He is the anchor for our soul.

Job 33.15 In a dream, in a vision of the night,
when deep sleep falls on people
as they slumber in their beds,
16 he may speak in their ears
and terrify them with warnings,
17 to turn them from wrongdoing
and keep them from pride,
18 to preserve them from the pit,
their lives from perishing by the sword.
 
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RDKirk

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Well, I suppose your story is designed to entertain, but the important question remains: when does the soul awake? Since the unborn child, or fetus, is viewed as viable at an earlier stage, and a future baby at any stage, it is murder to destroy it apart from exceptional cases.

It doesn't matter how "awake" it is. "Woke" people can conceive of it any way they like, but it is based on their own imagination, and not God's revelation.

Obviously, consciousness takes place only at birth, and not before. That goes without saying. One can "murder" an unconscious being, including fetuses.
I'm not sure about consciousness occurring only at birth and not before. Consciousness is not a binary state...there is a spectrum between being comatose and being fully awake. Even a sleeping person has some level of consciousness.

It has been noted that newborn babies cry with the same accent as their mothers...the cries of French newborns are consistent and clearly different from the cries of German newborns.
 
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RandyPNW

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I'm not sure about consciousness occurring only at birth and not before. Consciousness is not a binary state...there is a spectrum between being comatose and being fully awake. Even a sleeping person has some level of consciousness.

It has been noted that newborn babies cry with the same accent as their mothers...the cries of French newborns are consistent and clearly different from the cries of German newborns.
Did God design women to carry a fetus through for months only to have the fetus killed? Consciousness has little bearing on that point. But it is at least merciful to put someone out before killing them. Murder is murder--fetus or infant. Pre-infanticide--the terms are game-playing.
 
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RandyPNW

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I know, the soul is very hard to describe.

In the story in the OP it states that when we die we are visited by the same angel who we recognize from when we were a fetus, this angel takes us home, hopefully home is heaven.

People who have had a NDE tell of seeing a bright light & of someone who they recognize, so do we all have our very own guardian angel ?

Each night when we sleep the soul is allowed to wonder off on it's own to experience what we call dreams, are these dreams to rectify our wrongs & to replenish us for the next day which is the present a gift from God ?

:praying:
As you've probably noticed, a number of worries and wayward thoughts during the day rise in the dream, terrifying us with things that we should avoid. Fortunately we awake and it "wasn't real!" ;)

We can't sanitize our lives legalistically, and realistically, we cannot avoid "bad thoughts." But we can prepare the "ground" in our thought life for a better focus upon the "things that are above."

Then when God plants good thoughts in our minds, we can water it, get out in the sunshine, and the new life will grow, pushing out many of the bad thoughts that upset our lives.

As I've been more stern and serious with my life, most of my nightmares have gone away. I'm sure they are still there, but we do have trouble remembering them! ;)
 
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RDKirk

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Did God design women to carry a fetus through for months only to have the fetus killed? Consciousness has little bearing on that point. But it is at least merciful to put someone out before killing them. Murder is murder--fetus or infant. Pre-infanticide--the terms are game-playing.
Whether one is speaking of God or evolution, certainly the design of a woman and the process of reproduction does not have the destruction of the fetus as the end goal.

The indications are that a fetus, particularly one beyond the point of extrauterine viability, can feel pain, which would certainly be the case of any method of abortion at that stage.
 
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RandyPNW

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Whether one is speaking of God or evolution, certainly the design of a woman and the process of reproduction does not have the destruction of the fetus as the end goal.

The indications are that a fetus, particularly one beyond the point of extrauterine viability, can feel pain, which would certainly be the case of any method of abortion at that stage.
Yes, pain is one argument, though it is much weaker than the pro-life argument. If "pain" was the main issue, then why not be a pacifist or against prisons? Whose pain--the family having to raise a child they can't afford, the pain of the child growing up in bad conditions, or the pain of the fetus?

So I use "pain" as an argument for drama, to pull on the heartstrings, in order to *SAVE THE BABY!*
 
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th1bill

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This discussion is off to an award start. The egg of the woman and the male of female sperm that join together are both alive. If that growing infant is not disturbed but, rather, nurtured and cared for it will grow into a young man or young woman. If at any point you are stupid enough to murder it you are shaking your fist in the face of the Creator God and you are murdering the Image of Yehovah God.
 
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