The snare of devotion to Mary.

bbbbbbb said:

This past September I had the privilege of attending a mass which was celebrated by a cardinal of your church. After consecrating the host he clearly stated that it was the flesh of Jesus Christ. After consecrating the wine he clearly stated that it was the blood of Jesus Christ. Was he in error or did he not actually believe what he said?

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You said in your post it turned into flesh and blood on the tongue. That isn't really what the CC teaches.

Also - sometimes people think that it is meant that it actually turns into meat, which of course isn't what they say either - your post wasn't very clear whether you meant that or not.

MKJ said:

You said in your post it turned into flesh and blood on the tongue. That isn't really what the CC teaches.

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You mean it's been turned into flesh and blood before hitting the tongue, I take it. I can't seem to find that wording as I look back through the posts right now, but I'd be inclined to think that this was the same kind of casual, conversational language we all use at times.

Also - sometimes people think that it is meant that it actually turns into meat, which of course isn't what they say either

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Well, actually, they DO say that.

Any and all subtractions from the idea that what is on your tongue is literally flesh conflict with the doctrine of Transubstantiation. Few Catholics actually believe it, to be sure, but many or most will defend the theory nonetheless.

Albion said:

You mean it's been turned into flesh and blood before hitting the tongue, I take it. I can't seem to find that wording as I look back through the posts right now, but I'd be inclined to think that this was the same kind of casual, conversational language we all use at times.

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Yes, I think it probably was, but I could also easily see how someone might have thought he meant it in a more specific way.

Well, actually, they DO say that.

Any and all subtractions from the idea that what is on your tongue is literally flesh conflict with the doctrine of Transubstantiation. Few Catholics actually believe it, to be sure, but many or most will defend the theory nonetheless.

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No, they do not teach that it turns to meat on your tongue or even at any other point, or that if you take it to a lab and test it you will see human blood cells. Nor do they teach that the accidents - the appearance of bread and wine - is not real. That does not contradict the theory of transubstantiation, even in its most strict Aristotelian form - which the CC doesn't tend to insist on these days anyway, and wasn't even the original source of the formulation.

There have been people who have claimed that in fact they received meat and blood in species as well as in substance, and that has sometimes been presented as the teaching of the CC by the disingenuous or mistaken, but that idea has been pretty clearly rejected by them, and even called superstitious.

MKJ said:

You said in your post it turned into flesh and blood on the tongue. That isn't really what the CC teaches.

Also - sometimes people think that it is meant that it actually turns into meat, which of course isn't what they say either - your post wasn't very clear whether you meant that or not.

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I responded to a post in which it was claimed that a miracle took place when it turned to flesh and blood on the tongue of a communicant.

My point was that with the doctrine of transubstantiation wherein it is claimed that the host becomes the "true body" of Jesus Christ and the wine becomes the "true blood" of Jesus Christ, this is an everyday occurence in the Catholic Church - each time the mass is celebrated.

In recent years the doctrine has been tweaked so that a semantic dance occurs in which the "true body" really and truly is the flesh of Jesus Christ (but the "accidents". i.e. the bread, remains and there is no physical flesh which is eaten). Thus, it appears to this non-Catholic that there is a great deal of obfuscation today concerning this doctrine.

To make matters even more confusing, when it does happen that actual human flesh is obtained, either on the tongue or before, it is widely trumpted as a miracle of God, as if the "true body" in the ordinary mass is somehow less "true" than physical flesh.

concretecamper said:

The Cardinal was not in error.

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I certainly did not think so. Thus, the communicants received the "true body" and the "true blood" of Jesus Christ, and not some stand-in for them such as bread and wine.

Jesus Christ our Saviour in fact "pre-Blesses" His Holy Eucharist - His Sacred Host - His Flesh and Blood - of which Jesus gave up for all sinners/souls here on earth - and in Holy Purgatory - in order for people to further "receive" His Blessings/Gifts/Graces that are contained within His Holy Eucharist - those hearts walking to Jesus Christ our Saviour to His Altar to receive His Holy Eucharist that Jesus Himself within His Holy Presence in His Tabernacle and at the Altar in His Catholic Church and Universal Christian Church - "Pre-Blesses".

Jesus Christ our Saviour said to Saint Sister Faustina during the 1930's as part of His 600 page Divine Mercy Holy messages for mankind while delivering His Divine Mercy Chaplet.

"My Heart overflows with great mercy for souls, and especially for poor sinners. If only they could understand that I am the best of Fathers to them and that it is for them that the Blood and Water flowed from My Heart as from a fount overflowing with mercy. For them I dwell in the tabernacle as King of Mercy. I desire to bestow My graces upon souls, but they do not want to accept them. You, at least, come to Me as often as possible and take these graces they do not want to accept".

Divine Mercy - Jesus, I trust in You

and;

"My great delight is to unite Myself with souls...when I come to a human heart in Holy Communion, My Hands are full of all kinds of Graces which I want to give to that soul.

How painful it is to Me that souls so seldom unite themselves to Me in Holy Communion.

It pains Me very much when religious souls receive the Sacrament of Love merely out of habit as if they do not understand what this Food is. I find neither faith nor love in their hearts. I go to such souls with great reluctance. It would be better if they did not receive...".

Jesus has stated that people going along to Church and receiving His Holy Communion (of which Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit Pre-Bless and are in fact Present in His Holiness within His Tabernacle manifested) "do not understand what this Food is".

"I want to grant a complete pardon to the souls that will go to Confession and receive Holy Communion on the Feast of My mercy". (1109) - Jesus' "Divine Mercy".

The Blessed Virgin Mary with Jesus Christ our Saviour to Saint Faustina - 1930's :

"... you have to speak to the world about His great mercy and prepare the world for the Second Coming of Him who will come, not as a merciful Savior, but as a just Judge. Oh, how terrible is that day! Determined is the day of justice, the day of divine wrath. The angels tremble before it. Speak to souls about this great mercy while it is still the time for [granting] mercy. If you keep silent now, you will be answering for a great number of souls on that terrible day. ... (635)


"There are souls who despise My graces as well as all the proofs of My love. They do not wish to hear My call, but proceed into the abyss of hell. The loss of these souls plunges Me into deadly sorrow. God though I am, I cannot help such a soul because it scorns Me; having a free will, it can spurn Me or love Me".

"Write down these words, My daughter. Speak to the world about My mercy; let all mankind recognize My unfathomable mercy. It is a sign for the end times; after it will come the day of justice".

"The next morning, when I entered chapel, I heard these words interiorly: Every time you enter the chapel, immediately recite the prayer which I taught you yesterday. When I had said the prayer, in my soul I heard these words: This prayer will serve to appease My wrath". (476)

"First of all, you will say one OUR FATHER and HAIL MARY and the I BELIEVE IN GOD. Then on the OUR FATHER beads you will say the following words: "Eternal Father, I offer You the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Your dearly beloved Son, Our Lord Jesus Christ, in atonement for our sins and those of the whole world." On the HAIL MARY beads you will say the following words: "For the sake of His sorrowful Passion have mercy on us and on the whole world." In conclusion, three times you will recite these words: "Holy God, Holy Mighty One, Holy Immortal One, have mercy on us and on the whole world." (476)"Say unceasingly the chaplet that I have taught you. Whoever will recite it will receive great mercy at the hour of death. Priests will recommend it to sinners as their last hope of salvation. Even if there were a sinner most hardened, if he were to recite this chaplet only once, he would receive grace from My infinite mercy. I desire that the whole world know My infinite mercy. I desire to grant unimaginable graces to those souls who trust in My mercy". (687)

"Write that when they say this chaplet in the presence of the dying, I will stand between My Father and the dying person, not as the just Judge but as the merciful Savior". (1540-1541)

"The souls that say this chaplet will be embraced by My mercy during their lifetime and especially at the hour of their death". (754)

"When I entered the chapel for a moment, the Lord said to me, My daughter, help Me to save a certain dying sinner. Say the chaplet that I have taught you for him. When I began to say the chaplet, I saw the man dying in the midst of terrible torment and struggle. His Guardian Angel was defending him, but he was, as it were, powerless against the enormity of the soul's misery. A multitude of devils was waiting for the soul. But while I was saying the chaplet, I saw Jesus just as He is depicted in the image. The rays which issued from Jesus' Heart enveloped the sick man, and the powers of darkness fled in panic. The sick man peacefully breathed his last. When I came to myself, I understood how very important the chaplet was for the dying. It appeases the anger of God". (1565)

Jesus appeared to St. Margaret Mary Alacoque and asked to be consoled, for His Heart plunges into deep sorrow because of humanity’s ingratitude and coldness to His burning Love. He has asked us to set apart “a special feast to honor my heart.” In response, the Church has designated the month of June for this occasion.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Marie_Alacoque

Saint Margaret Mary Alacoque, V.H.M.

Disciple of the Sacred Heart

Born
22 July 1647
L'Hautecour, Duchy of Burgundy, Kingdom of France

Died
17 October 1690 (aged 43)
Paray-le-Monial, Duchy of Burgundy, Kingdom of France


Beatified
18 September 1864, Rome, Papal States, by Pope Pius IX

Canonized
13 May 1920, Vatican City, by Pope Benedict XV

Major shrine
Monastery of the Visitation,
Paray-le-Monial, Saône-et-Loire, France

Feast
October 16 (October 17 by the Order of the Visitation of Holy Mary and universally prior to 1969)

Patronage
those suffering with polio, devotees of the Sacred Heart, loss of parents

St. Margaret Mary Alacoque, V.H.M. (French: Marguerite-Marie Alacoque) (1647-1690), was a French Roman Catholic nun and mystic, who promoted devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus in its modern form.[1]

She worked to prove the genuineness of her vocation and her visions of Jesus and Mary relating to the Sacred Heart. She was initially rebuffed by her mother superior and was unable to convince theologians of the validity of her visions. A noted exception was Saint Claude de la Colombière, who supported her. The devotion to the Sacred Heart was officially recognized 75 years after Alacoque's death.[2] In his encyclical Miserentissimus Redemptor, Pope Pius XI stated that Jesus Christ had "manifested Himself" to Saint Margaret and referred to the conversation between Jesus and Saint Margaret several times.[3]

Early life[edit]

Alacoque was born in 1647 in L'Hautecour, now part of the commune of Verosvres, then in the Duchy of Burgundy, the only daughter of Claude and Philiberte Lamyn Alacoque, who had also several sons.[4] From early childhood, Margaret was described as showing intense love for the Blessed Sacrament, and as preferring silence and prayer to childhood play.

After her First Communion at the age of nine, she practised in secret severe corporal mortification, until rheumatic fever confined her to bed for four years. At the end of this period, having made a vow to the Blessed Virgin to consecrate herself to religious life, she was instantly restored to perfect health.[4] In recognition of this favor, she added the name Mary to her baptismal name of Margaret. According to her later account of her life, she had visions of Jesus Christ, which she thought were a normal part of human experience and continued to practice austerity.

Alacoque lost her father at a young age, and the family's assets were held by a relative who refused to hand them over, plunging her family into poverty. During this time, her only consolation were frequent visits to pray before the Blessed Sacrament in the local church. When she was 17, however, the family regained their fortune and her mother encouraged her to go in society, in the hopes of her finding a suitable husband. Out of obedience, and believing that her childhood vow was no longer binding, she began to accompany her brothers in the social events of her society, attending dances and balls.[4]

One night, however, she returned home, dressed in her finery, from a ball for Carnival, she experienced a vision of Christ, scourged and bloody, in which he reproached her for her forgetfulness of him, and of how his Heart was filled with love for her due to her promise. As a result she determined to fulfill her vow and entered, when almost 24 years of age, the Visitation Convent at Paray-le-Monial on 25 May 1671, intending to become a nun.[4]

Painting of Jesus appearing to Saint Margaret Mary, Church of San Michele, Cortemilia, in Italy (within the wiki link).

Alacoque was subjected to many trials to prove the genuineness of her vocation. She was admitted to wearing the religious habit on 25 August 1671, but was not allowed to make her religious profession on the same date of the following year, which would have been normal.[5] A fellow novice described Margaret Mary as humble, simple and frank, but above all kind and patient.[6] Finally, she was admitted to profession on 6 November 1672. It is said that she was assigned to the infirmary and was not very skillful at her tasks.[7]

Visions[edit]

In this monastery Alacoque received several private revelations of the Sacred Heart, the first on 27 December 1673, and the final one 18 months later. The visions revealed to her the form of the devotion, the chief features being reception of Holy Communion on the first Friday of each month, Eucharistic adoration during a "Holy hour" on Thursdays, and the celebration of the Feast of the Sacred Heart.[8] She stated that in her vision she was instructed to spend an hour every Thursday night to meditate on Jesus' Agony in the Garden of Gethsemane. The Holy Hour practice later became widespread among Catholics.[9][10]

On December 27, 1673, the feast of St. John, Margaret Mary reported that Jesus permitted her to rest her head upon his heart, and then disclosed to her the wonders of his love, telling her that he desired to make them known to all mankind and to diffuse the treasures of his goodness, and that he had chosen her for this work.

Initially discouraged in her efforts to follow the instruction she had received in her visions, Alacoque was eventually able to convince her superior, Mother de Saumaise, of the authenticity of her visions. She was unable, however, to convince a group of theologians of the validity of her apparitions, nor was she any more successful with many of the members of her own community, and suffered greatly at their hands. She eventually received the support of St. Claude de la Colombière, S.J., the community's confessor for a time, who declared that the visions were genuine. In 1683, opposition in the community ended when Mother Melin was elected Superior and named Margaret Mary her assistant. She later became Novice Mistress,[7] and saw the monastery observe the Feast of the Sacred Heart privately beginning in 1686. Two years later, a chapel was built at the Paray-le-Monial to honor the Sacred Heart.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marguerite_Marie_Alacoque

Painting of Blessed Mary of the Divine Heart and Saint Margarette Mary Alacoque in adoration to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.

After Alacoque the devotion to the Sacred Heart was fostered by the Jesuits and the subject of controversies within the Church. The practice was not officially recognized until 75 years later.[8]

The discussion of Alacoque's own mission and qualities continued for years. All her actions, her revelations, her spiritual maxims, her teachings regarding the devotion to the Sacred Heart, of which she was the chief exponent as well as the apostle, were subjected to the most severe and minute examination, and finally the Sacred Congregation of Rites passed a favourable vote on the heroic virtues of this "servant of God". In March 1824, Pope Leo XII pronounced her Venerable and on 18 September 1864 Pope Pius IX declared her Blessed.[11] When her tomb was canonically opened in July 1830, two instantaneous cures were recorded to have taken place. Her incorrupt body rests above the side altar in the Chapel of the Apparitions, located at the Visitation Monastery in Paray-le-Monial, and many striking blessings have been claimed by pilgrims attracted there from all parts of the world.[4]

Alacoque was canonized by Pope Benedict XV in 1920, and in 1929 her liturgical commemoration was included in the General Roman calendar for celebration on 17 October, the day of her death. In the reforms of 1969, the feast day was moved to the prior day, 16 October.

In his 1928 encyclical Miserentissimus Redemptor, Pope Pius XI affirmed the Church's position regarding the credibility of her visions of Jesus Christ by speaking of Jesus as having "manifested Himself" to Saint Margaret Mary and having "promised her that all those who rendered this honour to His Heart would be endowed with an abundance of heavenly graces".[12]

Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

MKJ said:

No, they do not teach that it turns to meat on your tongue or even at any other point

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Of course they do--unless by "meat" you are referring to something other than actual flesh and blood. I'm sure we agree that no one is saying it turns into one of those butcher cuts on a cardboard tray wrapped in cellophane.

or that if you take it to a lab and test it you will see human blood cells.

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That's only because they ALSO claim that this true flesh retains--by a miracle!--all the "accidents" of bread and wine. But the belief is that the substance has been wholly changed over into flesh that is as much flesh and blood as any other flesh and blood.

Nor do they teach that the accidents - the appearance of bread and wine - is not real.

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Correct...but that's just the accidents. The substance (that which we were talking about) is said to be real flesh.

Hopefully these few words may assist other Christians regardless of any denomination (religion) to comprehend that "all things visible and invisible" are through Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit.

For example:

Holy Scriptures

God The Most High appeared often to Moses and His selected Apostles BC, speaking to their hearts, speaking through The Holy Spirit with the appearances of Archangel Gabriel at times including The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God and declaring that the Messiah with "Mercy" would be forthcoming of which Jesus Christ our Saviour came down from Heaven and was born through The Blessed Virgin Mary.

"All things visible and invisible" - often as God The Most High stated, incomprehensible to mortals - to Esdra that mortals do not understand nor know what occurs in Heaven nor what can understand the reasons of the actions of God the Most High.

Jesus Christ our Saviour

Jesus Christ our Saviour received God The Most High and The Holy Spirit speaking to His Heart daily guiding Jesus in all that Jesus taught here on Earth; with The Holy Spirit teaching God The Most High's Loving Holy Commandments and Teachings speaking to His Heart.

Jesus Christ our Saviour experienced Holy Visions, could Heal the sick and dying with His Holy Hands, change water into wine, do 'anything' through and by God and The Holy Spirit within Him.

Jesus Christ our Saviour appeared to Mary Magdalene after dying, appeared to His Disciples and The Blessed Virgin Mary (His Mother) after death and The Holy Spirit appeared to Jesus' Disciples and The Blessed Virgin Mary filling them all with The Holy Spirit and Blessing them all with the Gift of Tongues by The Holy Spirit - all taught in Jesus' New Testament.

Yet, people find it difficult to comprehend that Jesus Christ our Saviour and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God are able to appear to people here on earth throughout the ages. Why is that in view of the facts that God The Most High appeared to Moses and many other Apostles (only showing His Back and not His Holy Face), Jesus appearing to His Disciples and others after dying?

If The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God had been appearing to people all over the world with Holy Messages that are contrary to Jesus Christ our Saviour, God The Most High, The Holy Spirit and His Commandments, without the encouragement of focussing on Jesus Christ our Saviour, praying and repenting sins from our hearts in genuine remorse, focussing on Jesus' bitter Passion and His Sorrowful Stations of His Cross and Divine Holy messages all pertaining to Jesus Christ our Saviour, God The Most High and The Holy Spirit; then there would have been a problem.

Every Holy message that in fact is delivered by The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God are always following and abiding in Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Commandments, Teachings and Holy Ways, in order for people/souls here to come closer to Jesus Christ our Saviour including the Prayers that Jesus Christ our Saviour and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God have given to the Saints for mankind.

Any problems exist within a heart's trust in Jesus Christ our Saviour/God The Most High, The Holy Spirit and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God.

"Trust" of which Jesus requested within His Holy Scriptures His New Testament that people should have in Him and of course in our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, particularly if one has read Revelations within Holy Scriptures.

Love and Kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

Galilee63 said:

If The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God had been appearing to people all over the world with Holy Messages that are contrary to Jesus Christ our Saviour, God The Most High, The Holy Spirit and His Commandments, without the encouragement of focussing on Jesus Christ our Saviour, praying and repenting sins from our hearts in genuine remorse, focussing on Jesus' bitter Passion and His Sorrowful Stations of His Cross and Divine Holy messages all pertaining to Jesus Christ our Saviour, God The Most High and The Holy Spirit; then there would have been a problem.

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There is a problem. If there were not, this thread would not exist.

A problem within the hearts souls minds and bodies of people in distrust Albion.

During many of the apparitions of The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God to Saints ie priests/nuns/sisters/ - Jesus Christ our Saviour has been in His Holy Presence delivering His additional Prayers for mankind to pray including to Saint Dominic 1214 (The Holy Rosary), Blessed Alan de La Roche priest 1260 (Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God), Saint Mary Alacoque (His Holy Wounds), Saint Bernard (Holy Shoulder Wound), Saint Sister Faustina (Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God) and many other Saints with both Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary appearing.

As Jesus Christ our Saviour stated within His Divine Mercy delivered to mankind through Saint Faustina:

"Nothing tears at My Heart more than dis-trust in souls".

The Holy Prayer that The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God delivered to the Children of Fatima was:

"O My Jesus forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of hell, lead all souls to Heaven, especially those in most need of Thy Mercy, Amen".

With The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God imploring the Children of Fatima many times to pray Her Holy Rosary (of which Jesus back in the year 1214 had delivered The Holy Rosary to Saint Dominic and the Blessed Alan De la Roche again in 1260 with The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God in Her Holy Presence and later many times Solo).

Refer to the years here with the Children of Fatima:

www.marypages.com/fatimaEng1.htm

When one reads of all the Prayers that Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God have delivered to mankind, one will realise that these Prayers address: Jesus Christ our Saviour and God The Most High with the inclusion of The Our Father and The Hail Mary that are within Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit's Holy Scriptures.

If an evil entity or people being possessed by the devil/satan were spruiking around the world prayers and Holy messages contrary to Holy Scriptures and contrary to Jesus/God/The Holy Spirits Commandments, teachings, revelations and prophesies including not addressing Jesus/God The Most High, then a problem would exist.

Regardless of the doubting Thomases at their stages in their faith in our Lord Jesus Christ and our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, the "Proof" has been evidenced within the hearts and souls of millions of people around the world, of whom, have been led by The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God back closer to our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour receiving Jesus into their hearts, whereas, previously these people had not.

Those of whom have 'chosen' not to turn to our Lord Jesus Christ our Saviour through The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God have 'no idea' quite frankly, on what Love, Faith, Trust, Loving Holy Wisdom, Guidance and Enlightenment is received by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit through our Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God of Whom is Queen of Peace, Queen of Mercy, Queen of The Universe, Queen of the Earth, and all of the many other Holy Titles that God The Most High has in fact bestowed in His Love for His Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God.

If one only lives their faith through God's Holy Scriptures and correctly deciphers "Revelations" one will come to realise that God The Most High Loves and has Blessed and bestowed His Holy Gifts, Graces, Blessings and Holy Titles and Holy Place right next to Him/God The Most High flowing His Holy Powers through The Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God, one of which, is converting sinners/people to Jesus Christ our Saviour and many others that the Saints have all documented in their writings over the Centuries.

God The Most High's Blessed Virgin Mary Mother of God as His Holy Handmaiden in Heaven and at times on His Earth.

God The Most High in His Holy Word spoken to Esdra/Ezra made reference to The Messiah forthcoming with His Mercy for mankind.

During the 1930's Jesus appeared dozens and dozens of times to Saint Sister Faustina in her polish cell/room and The Chapel on her own, dictating to Saint Faustina His Divine Mercy Chaplet for mankind to pray as the last hope of salvation for many people/souls.

600 pages Albion of Diaries with Jesus' Holy messages that reflected God The Most High's Holy Scriptures in many places including Revelations and Jesus' Holy Scriptures including many of Jesus and The Blessed Virgin's Holy messages and Prayers that were given to so many Saints previously in other Centuries not then documented for the religious to receive or be allowed to receive. There were no internets/computers. Saint Sister Faustina would not have been allowed access to Jesus and The Blessed Virgin's Holy messages given to Saints with the exception of Saint Gertrude's Prayer of whom Saint Faustina referenced in prayer.

People have free will (of which Jesus/God) gives us all to be distrustful and sceptical of Him and The Blessed Virgin Mary of Whom is Jesus/God's Holy Mother in Heaven.

The concern I have for peoples souls (and my own of course) is that Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary have appeared to so many Saints of whom were Catholic religious requesting people to pray the Prayers that Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary together have given us through the Saints, for our salvation, ie for Jesus to take us into His Mercy, His Divine Mercy at the hour of death and for our Blessed Virgin Mary to intercede on our behalf, at the hour of death, shielding people's souls from God The Most High's "wrath" of which in my own experience, "exists" and/or when Jesus appears here on earth 'soon' (Jesus makes this quite clear that after He/Jesus had delivered His 'Divine Mercy' to mankind through Faustina during the 1930's that He would be appearing on earth soon thereafter and to prepare for His Second Coming) with His Holy messages also delivered by The Blessed Virgin Mary.

Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet and Holy messages were delayed by the Catholic Church for almost 40 years unapproved until Pope John Paul II was canonized as Pope and he then approved Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet itself and Jesus' Holy requests that His Divine Mercy be celebrated as a Divine Mercy Feast Sunday during the Good Friday week - with "All" mankind praying His Divine Mercy Chaplet for their salvation, to partake in Confession repenting sins to Him and to receive Holy Communion while praying His Divine Mercy 9 Day Novena and then Jesus is able to open up His Fount of Mercy within His two Holy Rays that shine forth from His Sacred Heart and forgive those people/souls at the hour of death and/or when Jesus appears here on Earth soon.

This is a special Gift/Blessing/Grace that only occurs at Easter time for those people/souls whom wish to pray His Divine Mercy Chaplet the once to receive complete forgiveness of sins for their whole lives.

Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet is not being spread by His priests through the Catholic Church as Jesus requested.

Jesus' Divine Mercy Feast Sunday was canonized as His Feast Day however Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet is not being distributed through the Catholic Church or taught by Priests in most of the Parishes as Jesus requested.

A crying shame....

Therefore, do your souls eternally a favour and recite Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet to Him just once during your lives, don't worry about denominations or where you are reciting Jesus' Divine Mercy Chaplet - Jesus says that if a soul/person recites His Divine Mercy Chaplet just once during their lives with repentance of sins from their hearts to Him and receiving His Holy Eucharist, He/Jesus can take that person/soul into His Divine Mercy, shielding that soul from God The Most High's wrath and at the same time, Jesus is able to protect that soul from evil which attempts to grab souls as we are dying.

I prayed for a relative on three occasions while she was dying a couple of years ago to Jesus His Divine Mercy Chaplet (she only had days to live each time in Hospital). The second time she was dying/drowning on fluids on her lungs, they gave her morphine to destroy her kidneys unbeknownst by Family with hours to live. I prayed and asked Jesus to save and heal her given my relative was not ready to go. I prayed it in Jesus/God's Holy Will. She had not received the Last Rites by the priest. I knew after praying to Jesus and The Blessed Virgin Mary for Her Loving Holy intercession that my relative was going to live and be healed. Straight away, similar to the last time she was dying she was healed. My relative was not a strong believer (non judgement putting it mildly) despite being baptized and raised Catholic nor a pray-er. However, when she awoke, stated in horror how many "lost souls" to God there were up there and that her "Mother" had greeted her and said her time was not up and to return, despite my relative wanting to be with Her.

A year later, the fourth time in hospital was to be the last during the worst painful death witnessed by family and staff during a ten day period drowning on fluids on her lungs into her oesophagus. The Blessed Virgin Mary had me praying Her Holy Rosary for my relative non-stop daily by her bedside and through the night.

I have a feeling that my relative had perhaps not done confession for years.

I prayed my heart out while focussing on Jesus and His Passion, His Sorrows, Agonies and Sufferings dying for mankind and mankind's sins in order to be taken into His Mercy at the hour of our deaths.

I was given God's Holy message into my heart that my relative was dying and would be gone in that 24 hours.

She died a couple of hours after I had walked out of the hospital exhausted from spending the day and night with her praying - her soul saved by Jesus through the Blessed Virgin Mary's Loving Holy intercession during the last years of my relative's life and the Glory is all Yours Dear God our Heavenly Father now and forever. Amen.

Within some nde's (a Catholic Priest) here accounts for the fact that if he had not prayed to The Blessed Virgin Mary he was destined for hell by Jesus/God/The Holy Spirit.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VFE8ToVatI


Love and kindest wishes your Sister in Jesus Christ our Saviour

MKJ said:

I don't think you can assume candles and such mean that someone is saying something or someone is God.

In any case - idolotry of the Bible isn't unheard of, but since people who do it are usually iconoclasts, it isn't much to look at.

There is the common practice of not putting other things on top of Bibles or always putting them on the highest shelf.

It is not uncommon to find Christians from certain backgrounds who thing the Word - as in Christ - is in some way meant to be identified with the Word - as in Scripture.

And it is very common to meet Christians of a particular background who treat the Bible the way a Muslim treats the Qur'an, which is inappropriate in a Christian context.

KJV-onlyism is, I would say, a type of Bible idolatry, and so may be some types of creationism and Biblical literalism.

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While I agree with your examples, I do not think they come remotely close to idolatry. Even the KJV-only folks don't kneel before their Bibles and pray to them.

bbbbbbb said:

While I agree with your examples, I do not think they come remotely close to idolatry. Even the KJV-only folks don't kneel before their Bibles and pray to them.

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I agree completely. We're being told that if you don't use the family Bible for a footrest, you're "worshipping it." Meanwhile, we who are moderates on the issue are also being told that no amount of excessive devotions attributed to Mary, including kneeling and bowing before her statues, using innumerable trinkets dedicated to her, considering her to be the dispenser of all graces, the mother of all mankind, the supreme intermediary with God, and all the rest of that doesn't in any way approach worship. And that despite the fact that the church which most ardently defends and promotes such practices and beliefs itself labels such things as a form of worship.

I hope that there is some intention to exaggerate grossly in order to make some point about terminology or to say that it's hard to know for certain what constitutes worship. Otherwise, the whole exercise is ludicrous.

Albion said:

I agree completely. We're being told that if you don't use the family Bible for a footrest, you're "worshipping it." Meanwhile, we who are moderates on the issue are also being told that no amount of excessive devotions attributed to Mary, including kneeling and bowing before her statues, using innumerable trinkets dedicated to her, considering her to be the dispenser of all graces, the mother of all mankind, the supreme intermediary with God, and all the rest of that doesn't in any way approach worship. And that despite the fact that the church which most ardently defends and promotes such practices and beliefs itself labels such things as a form of worship.

I hope that there is some intention to exaggerate grossly in order to make some point about terminology or to say that it's hard to know for certain what constitutes worship. Otherwise, the whole exercise is ludicrous.

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Regarding the part I bolded - since this doesn't apply to Orthodox, do you think that we also worship her and the saints?

Mary

bbbbbbb said:

I responded to a post in which it was claimed that a miracle took place when it turned to flesh and blood on the tongue of a communicant.

My point was that with the doctrine of transubstantiation wherein it is claimed that the host becomes the "true body" of Jesus Christ and the wine becomes the "true blood" of Jesus Christ, this is an everyday occurence in the Catholic Church - each time the mass is celebrated.

In recent years the doctrine has been tweaked so that a semantic dance occurs in which the "true body" really and truly is the flesh of Jesus Christ (but the "accidents". i.e. the bread, remains and there is no physical flesh which is eaten). Thus, it appears to this non-Catholic that there is a great deal of obfuscation today concerning this doctrine.

To make matters even more confusing, when it does happen that actual human flesh is obtained, either on the tongue or before, it is widely trumpted as a miracle of God, as if the "true body" in the ordinary mass is somehow less "true" than physical flesh.

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Yes, you are right that it is trumpeted by some as a miracle, poor St Thomas would be horrified.

But the differentiation between accidents and substances isn't modern, or even post-modern. It is what St Thomas said in the 13th century, and it wasn't new then. It seems to have been the late medievals and early moderns who were very enthusiastic about weird interpretations of such things, perhaps as a reaction against other problems.

bbbbbbb said:

While I agree with your examples, I do not think they come remotely close to idolatry. Even the KJV-only folks don't kneel before their Bibles and pray to them.

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Idolatry can't be reduced to kneeling and praying. That is a very surface way to identify idolatry. Does anyone think people "worshiping the porcelain god" are really idolatrous? They kneel and even pray to it.

People kneel to all kinds of things - kings and monarchs for example - that they don't think are God.

Neither does praying necessarily have to be directed only to God. Prayer is also something traditionally attached to a monarch or lord - someone who can grant you a request - but it can also be someone much more humble. "give me a bottle of red wine, I pray you," is a quite reasonable thing to say.

The core of idolatry is to put something else in God's place, to treat it as if it was the source and measure of all things. Is it possible to do that with saints - sure, perhaps especially in some settings - where say the people are recent converts from polytheism or pantheism, it would be something to watch out for. That is not I think very common in the west - the tendency here is to deny the communion of saints and maybe even Christ and the Father.

Some Catholics do get inappropriately superstitious, especially about Mary, but that isn't a problem with idolatry - you can do it without being idolatrous or you can be superstitious about Christ.

But the examples I gave are I think just as worrying, and just as common, as the potential issues with saints. Why would someone not put another book on top of the Bible, if it is just a book? maybe it is just symbolic, which would be ok.

But what if it is combined with the idea that Scripture should be somehow identified with the Logos? That idea actually comes very close to a textbook version of idolatry - thinking that something which is created is in fact actually God.

This is what I mean by treating the Bible like the Qur'an. Muslims think the Qur'an is actually in a sort of physical way the words of God, which is why strictly speaking, translations from the Arabic are not the "real" words of God. And they have a kind of absolute truth quality. Christians haven't understood Scripture that way. The words of the Bible are true, for us, but they are in human and therefore fallible language, they are passed through human hands a thousand ways, translated. God is outside human understanding or any boundaries, including his own descriptions of himself to us, so how could his words "be" him? We understand them rightly through the Church, the community, which is infused by the Holy Spirit, and even then we know our understanding is a kind of approximation.

This idea of the Muslims however is very close to what KJV onlyists will often claim and you can also see the similarities to biblical literalism and fundamentalism (which of course KJV onlyists are). They think the words of Scripture really are God's actual words in a very direct way.

That is mistaking something created for God himself, and that is a very direct example of idolatry.

Mary of Bethany said:

Regarding the part I bolded - since this doesn't apply to Orthodox, do you think that we also worship her and the saints?

Mary

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seems like a reasonable question

Mary of Bethany said:

Regarding the part I bolded - since this doesn't apply to Orthodox, do you think that we also worship her and the saints?

Mary

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Hi, Mary.

All along, I've felt that there is a spectrum of belief and practice. It runs from hardly taking any notice of Mary's unique role in history to inordinate and unwise devotion that has all or almost all of the elements of worship.

The specifics do matter, in other words. And to the extent that the Orthodox do not do those particular things, a good case could be made for saying, no, they aren't included. But I also cannot say offhand that I know everything about Orthodox belief when it comes to these matters. Still, deep respect is one thing, and attributing god-like power to her or treating her as one would a demi-god is something quite different in principle.

MKJ said:

Yes, you are right that it is trumpeted by some as a miracle, poor St Thomas would be horrified.

But the differentiation between accidents and substances isn't modern, or even post-modern. It is what St Thomas said in the 13th century, and it wasn't new then. It seems to have been the late medievals and early moderns who were very enthusiastic about weird interpretations of such things, perhaps as a reaction against other problems.

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Yes, you are quite correct. After posting my reply, it dawned on me that I was mistaken. Thank you for the correction.

MKJ said:

Idolatry can't be reduced to kneeling and praying. That is a very surface way to identify idolatry. Does anyone think people "worshiping the porcelain god" are really idolatrous? They kneel and even pray to it.

People kneel to all kinds of things - kings and monarchs for example - that they don't think are God.

Neither does praying necessarily have to be directed only to God. Prayer is also something traditionally attached to a monarch or lord - someone who can grant you a request - but it can also be someone much more humble. "give me a bottle of red wine, I pray you," is a quite reasonable thing to say.

The core of idolatry is to put something else in God's place, to treat it as if it was the source and measure of all things. Is it possible to do that with saints - sure, perhaps especially in some settings - where say the people are recent converts from polytheism or pantheism, it would be something to watch out for. That is not I think very common in the west - the tendency here is to deny the communion of saints and maybe even Christ and the Father.

Some Catholics do get inappropriately superstitious, especially about Mary, but that isn't a problem with idolatry - you can do it without being idolatrous or you can be superstitious about Christ.

But the examples I gave are I think just as worrying, and just as common, as the potential issues with saints. Why would someone not put another book on top of the Bible, if it is just a book? maybe it is just symbolic, which would be ok.

But what if it is combined with the idea that Scripture should be somehow identified with the Logos? That idea actually comes very close to a textbook version of idolatry - thinking that something which is created is in fact actually God.

This is what I mean by treating the Bible like the Qur'an. Muslims think the Qur'an is actually in a sort of physical way the words of God, which is why strictly speaking, translations from the Arabic are not the "real" words of God. And they have a kind of absolute truth quality. Christians haven't understood Scripture that way. The words of the Bible are true, for us, but they are in human and therefore fallible language, they are passed through human hands a thousand ways, translated. God is outside human understanding or any boundaries, including his own descriptions of himself to us, so how could his words "be" him? We understand them rightly through the Church, the community, which is infused by the Holy Spirit, and even then we know our understanding is a kind of approximation.

This idea of the Muslims however is very close to what KJV onlyists will often claim and you can also see the similarities to biblical literalism and fundamentalism (which of course KJV onlyists are). They think the words of Scripture really are God's actual words in a very direct way.

That is mistaking something created for God himself, and that is a very direct example of idolatry.

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Thank you for the well-considered reply. Concerning the Bible, we have a great number of passages which probably worry you, such as Psalm 119 where the psalmist devotes all 176 verses to extolling the word of God.

Then, also there are passages such as in John 1 where the writer intentionally conflates Jesus Christ with the Word of God, carrying multiple levels of meaning. In a similar manner the Greek word pneuma is frequently used to convey multiple meanings (wind, breath, spirit, Holy Spirit) so that interpretations of various passages can be difficult, at best.

On the other hand, scripture does not contain these sorts of passages in respect to honoring deceased saints. They are neither extolled nor ascribed divine attributes as is frequently done in the Catholic Church. This level of attribution and adoration is a development which apparently came well after the writing of the New Testament.

Albion said:

But only because the findings were supported by Scripture. Surely you don't imagine that these Protestants believe in the Trinity solely because 600 men got together and voted on it!

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The Council fathers would have appealed to both Scripture and Tradition in their ruling against the Arians. And they certainly understood that Scripture must be interpreted in light of the Apostolic Tradition. I'm sure the Arians felt that Scripture supported their beliefs just as you think it does yours. The written word of God is formally insufficient as a medium of divine revelation. And it cannot serve as the final arbiter of divine truth, since Scripture itself must be interpreted by the one who peruses it. At Chalcedon the infallible teaching authority was the Apostolic College of Bishops in union with the Bishop of Rome who acted as the guardians of the faith protected from teaching error by the guaranty of the Holy Spirit. The decisions made at this council modelled that which was made at Jerusalem (cf. Acts 15). So your understanding of the Trinity is simply borrowed capital from the Catholic Church. Surely the Scriptures may become clearer or appear to be clear to someone who examines them in hindsight or with a bias.

PAX