The slave woman Hagar and the promise

[Clare73]

Clare73 said: It is not faith's works which save/justify, it is only the faith which saves/justifies, apart from faith's works.
So long as any Christian says only faith justifies, and justification is apart from works, then they are rejecting three Scriptures:
Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
'Faith only' must say no, because that would be boasting.

So you are rejecting Paul in Ephesians 2:8-9?
"For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith. . .not by works, so that no one can boast."
See 1 Corinthians 1:29.

And you are rejecting Paul in Romans 3:28?
". . .a man is justified by faith apart from observing the law (works).

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
'Faith only' must say no, because only by faith are we justified.

However, that would be the apostle saying "no" in Romans 3:28, above.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works.

Previously addressed in the two meanings of "justify," one used by Paul, the other by James.

Faith only' must say she justified by works, because we are only justified by faith.
The doctrine of justification of Christ is neither by faith only nor by works only: Christians are imputed righteousness by faith inwardly and justified by works of faith outwardly."
Scripture speaks of imputed righteousness of faith, not of imputed justification by faith.
Trying to equate imputed righteousness of God by faith and justification of God without works is false.

Contrare. . .

The Greek definition of justified is: "declared righteous, pronounced "not guilty."

The fundamental error of trusting in Scriptures of Paul but not in Scriptures of James,

You are setting Paul and James against each other, and preferring James.

is because they see a faith-only doctrine of Paul the apostle,

Previously addressed in explanation of:
"faith, apart from works" means "faith, apart from faith's works," not a workless counterfeit faith.
And the reason Paul was so emphatic about their separation was likewise demonstrated.

who was formerly Saul of Tarsus who excelled in the Jews religion and was blameless in their law, and was wholeheartedly consenting unto the death of Jesus and of Stephen: he did all without the faith of God.

And so Paul the apostle was the perfect instrument of correction to rebuke all works without faith, whether of the law or of righteousness.
The fundamental error of the Jews was trusting in the flesh only, and rejecting faith as necessary to inherit the promises made to the fathers: so long as the matters of the flesh in birth, circumcision, and the law were kept, then they would inherit the promises of God, whether they believed in it from the heart or not.
Paul was correcting Israel after the flesh, and James was correcting Christians of faith only.
The opposing extremism of trusting in the works of the flesh only, without need of faith, is trusting in faith only without need of works in the flesh.

And so, when reading all the Scriptures of Paul pertaining to justification and works, it is necessary to understand He is only speaking of "justification by works apart from faith, not of justification by faith apart from works.

Holy Toledo! . . .the only "problem" with that is the text states exactly the opposite:
Romans 3:28: "A man is justified by faith apart from the law (works)."
C'mon, guy!

Otherwise, Scriptures of Paul and of James are in fact contradicting one another,

And your solution is to put Paul in contradiction of himself?

Okay, Clare73 "don't play like dat!"
This crosses the line with me.

We have no basis for discussion as long as you completely deny plain and simple text.
When you're ready to sort it all out, let me know.

 

[ralliann]

It is not faith's works which save/justify, it is only the faith which saves/justifies, apart from faith's works.

So long as any Christian says only faith justifies, and justification is apart from works, then they are rejecting three Scriptures:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

'Faith only' must say no, because that would be boasting.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

'Faith only' must say no, because only by faith are we justified.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works.

'Faith only' must say she justified by works, because we are only justified by faith.

The doctrine of justification of Christ is neither by faith only nor by works only: Christians are imputed righteousness by faith inwardly and justified by works of faith outwardly.

Scripture speaks of imputed righteousness of faith, not of imputed justification by faith.

Trying to equate imputed righteousness of God by faith and justification of God without works is false.

The fundamental error of trusting in Scriptures of Paul but not in Scriptures of James, is because they see a faith-only doctrine of Paul the apostle, who was formerly Saul of Tarsus who excelled in the Jews religion and was blameless in their law, and was wholeheartedly consenting unto the death of Jesus and of Stephen: he did all without the faith of God.

And so Paul the apostle was the perfect instrument of correction to rebuke all works without faith, whether of the law or of righteousness.

The fundamental error of the Jews was trusting in the flesh only, and rejecting faith as necessary to inherit the promises made to the fathers: so long as the matters of the flesh in birth, circumcision, and the law were kept, then they would inherit the promises of God, whether they believed in it from the heart or not.

Paul was correcting Israel after the flesh, and James was correcting Christians of faith only.

The opposing extremism of trusting in the works of the flesh only, without need of faith, is trusting in faith only without need of works in the flesh.

And so, when reading all the Scriptures of Paul pertaining to justification and works, it is necessary to understand He is only speaking of justification by works apart from faith, not of justification by faith apart from works.

Otherwise, Scriptures of Paul and of James are in fact contradicting one another, as some have concluded and believe:

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Therefore, to avoid contradiction of Scripture, we must read all of Paul's doctrine of justification being by faith and not by works only without faith. Even as we read James' doctrine of justification being by works of faith and not by faith only without works.

We are not justified apart from works, because we are justified by works.

I agree with alot of what you are saying here, especially in your mention of all of Paul's doctrine. That is on reason why I asked about the oath the Children of Israel took. But I am seeing neither speak of the place of Grace? It just seems there is some talking past each other. What about grace saving us?
1.Unless it is of faith, there is no grace...
rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

2.to the goal....
to the end
3. surity to all the seed......
the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Faith therefore is what makes it by grace?
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Works of faith do not disannull grace......

 

[Clare73]

I agree with alot of what you are saying here, especially in your mention of all of Paul's doctrine. That is on reason why I asked about the oath the Children of Israel took. But I am seeing neither speak of the place of Grace? It just seems there is some talking past each other. What about grace saving us?
1.Unless it is of faith, there is no grace...
rom 4:16 Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace;

1) Grace means apart from works, or it's not grace, it's merit.

2) Grace saves only those that have true faith.

2.to the goal....
to the end
3. surity to all the seed......
the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Faith therefore is what makes it by grace?
Ro 4:4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
Works of faith do not disannull grace......

 

[ralliann]

1) Grace means apart from works, or it's not grace, it's merit.

Yes, I know that is why I included the quote of scripture which says so.

2) Grace saves only those that have true faith.

True faith? Is that the same as a living faith?
As opposed to a dead faith.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. {alone: Gr. by itself }
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, I know that is why I included the quote of scripture which says so.

True faith? Is that the same as a living faith?
As opposed to a dead faith.
Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. {alone: Gr. by itself }
Jas 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jas 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

It is an obedient faith, which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19); i.e., sanctification,
and which obedient faith saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies, not by but apart from (Romans 3:28) its own obedient works, only the faith itself saving and justifying. . .so that no one can boast, and all the glory goes to God.

 

[ralliann]

It is an obedient faith, which leads to righteousness (Romans 6:16) leading to holiness (Romans 6:19); i.e., sanctification.

Yes, Just like Abraham obeyed and did what God told him to do by faith. Just as James says.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, Just like Abraham obeyed and did what God told him to do by faith. Just as James says.

Yes, as Scripture says:
which obedient faith saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies, not by but apart from (Romans 3:28) its own obedient works, only the faith itself saving and justifying, as with Abraham (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6). . .so that no one can boast, and all the glory goes to God.

We are in agreement.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, as Scripture says:
which obedient faith saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies, not by but apart from (Romans 3:28) its own obedient works, only the faith itself saving and justifying, as with Abraham (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6). . .so that no one can boast, and all the glory goes to God.

We are in agreement.

Which faith has works because it is not a dead faith, it is a salvic faith Claire (if that is your name I love it btw) Paul is clearly talking specifically works of the law that was by Moses with it's corresponding works. Since the uncircumcised were not included and therefore had no hope in the promise. But now in Christ we are called to faith, a living faith in him. Therefore clearly in calling the uncircumcised to faith it in the promises, it is not by works of the circumcision and it's law, (as these were in times past the only group with promise).

 

[U.S. Grant]

So that promise has been fulfilled. . .2,000 years ago.
According to 1 Kings 4:21, 1 Kings 4:24-25, it has been completely fulfilled under Solomon, to the borders given in the covenant of Genesis 15:18-21.

Likewise, the promise of the return to the land was fulfilled under Ezra and Nehemiah, when the walls were rebuilt, the temple was rebuilt, the law was discovered, the entire law was read to the people and they re-dedicated themselves to God with such rejoicing that it could be heard afar.

Keeping in mind, that just as the irrevocable gifts and call (Romans 11:25) are being fulfilled in a remnant today (Romans 11:1-5), so likewise was promise in the OT.
They were fulfilled under Solomon, not David.

See 2 Samuel 8:3, 6 for David's achievements and control to the Euphrates River border.

According to the Scriptures, the land promise was fulfilled under Solomon,
the promise of return to the land was fulfilled under Ezra and Nehemiah, and
the promised seed, Christ was fulfilled 2,000 years ago.

The only seed ever of the promise are Christ and those in Christ (Galatians 3:16)
by faith in Christ (the Promise).

The kingdom did reach to a portion of the Euphrates, but it was not from the Nile, nor did it include all the border of the sea, where the lands of Tyre and Gaza remained as allies.

The restoration and rebuilding of the Temple in Ezekiel has not yet occurred, where the Lord Himself would reside.

There will then be natural born children of Abraham circumcised in Christ serving Him as His priests on earth during His reign: both outwardly and inwardly circumcised. (Ezek 44:7-9)

His reign with His resurrected saints ruling over the nations with a rod of iron obviously has not yet occurred.

The beginning of which the Lord Himself will roar out of Zion and cleanse Jerusalem for His reign on earth.

 

[Clare73]

Which faith has works because it is not a dead faith, it is a salvic faith Claire (if that is your name I love it btw) Paul is clearly talking specifically works of the law that was by Moses with it's corresponding works. Since the uncircumcised were not included and therefore had no hope in the promise. But now in Christ we are called to faith, a living faith in him. Therefore clearly in calling the uncircumcised to faith it in the promises, it is not by works of the circumcision and it's law, (as these were in times past the only group with promise).

Yes, only obedient faith is true faith, but it is not the obedience of that true faith which saves or justifies,
it is only the faith itself.

The obedience is operative to sanctification, after one is saved and justifed, not to be saved or justified.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Yes, as Scripture says:
which obedient faith saves (Ephesians 2:8-9) and justifies, not by but apart from (Romans 3:28) its own obedient works, only the faith itself saving and justifying, as with Abraham (Romans 4:3; Genesis 15:6). . .so that no one can boast, and all the glory goes to God.

We are in agreement.

not by but apart from (Romans 3:28) its own obedient works,

Yes by, and not apart from:

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works.

We are in agreement.

That's funny. It's like offering a draw in chess, once your king as been check mated.

That's fine, but there is no 'we' in this agreement of yours.

We are justified by works of faith, not apart from works of faith.

Faith without works is dead, being alone.

And so, I do agree the discussion is at an end. Once plain language is no more plain, then there's nothing more to discuss.

'by' means 'by', not 'apart from'.

 

[ralliann]

The kingdom did reach to a portion of the Euphrates, but it was not from the Nile, nor did it include all the border of the sea, where the lands of Tyre and Gaza remained as allies.

The restoration and rebuilding of the Temple in Ezekiel has not yet occurred, where the Lord Himself would reside.

There will then be natural born children of Abraham circumcised in Christ serving Him as His priests on earth during His reign: both outwardly and inwardly circumcised. (Ezek 44:7-9)

His reign with His resurrected saints ruling over the nations with a rod of iron obviously has not yet occurred.

The beginning of which the Lord Himself will roar out of Zion and cleanse Jerusalem for His reign on earth.

How can He be king and not be a priest?

 

[U.S. Grant]

How can He be king and not be a priest?

??

Jesus is KING of KINGS and High Priest.

His church are now kings and priests to Him and will reign with Him on earth.

The land promise to Abraham from the Nile to Euphrates will also be fulfilled with his natural seed, who will then become saved believers and inwardly circumcised in the generations following His return, and they will serve as His Personal priesthood for the nations of the earth.

Animal sacrifices and certain other feasts days of the OT will be restored on earth as per Ezekiel 40-.

 

[ralliann]

Yes, only obedient faith is true faith, but it is not the obedience of that true faith which saves or justifies,
it is only the faith itself.

The obedience is operative to sanctification, after one is saved and justifed, not to be saved or justified.

Clare, you are talking in circles. Obedient faith is Obedient....it is not distinct from "true" faith. It is a faith with works, a living faith, not dead.

 

[ralliann]

??

Jesus is KING of KINGS and High Priest.

His church are now kings and priests to Him and will reign with Him on earth.

The land promise to Abraham from the Nile to Euphrates will also be fulfilled with his natural seed, who will then become saved believers and inwardly circumcised in the generations following His return, and they will serve as His Personal priesthood for the nations of the earth.

Animal sacrifices and certain other feasts days of the OT will be restored on earth as per Ezekiel 40-.

I disagree. The kingdom will be the eternal kingdom promised to Abraham in Gen 17. Where we will sit With Abraham (the next world, the next life) at the table. The kingdom of heaven where our citizenship is. We are strangers and sojourners here.

 

[Clare73]

Clare, you are talking in circles. Obedient faith is Obedient....it is not distinct from "true" faith. It is a faith with works, a living faith, not dead.

Agreed. . .it is distinct from counterfeit faith, as in Matthew 7:21-23, etc.

 

[U.S. Grant]

Clare, you are talking in circles. Obedient faith is Obedient....it is not distinct from "true" faith. It is a faith with works, a living faith, not dead.

OSAS tries best they can to give lip service to works of faith, while refusing to have them even remotely attached with salvation: the things accompanying salvation.

Therefore, they must directly contradict the Scripture of justification by works, because without justification by works, there is no salvation by faith.

 

[U.S. Grant]

I disagree. The kingdom will be the eternal kingdom promised to Abraham in Gen 17. Where we will sit With Abraham (the next world, the next life) at the table. The kingdom of heaven where our citizenship is. We are strangers and sojourners here.

The kingdom of heaven where our citizenship is. We are strangers and sojourners here.

True. Now we are strangers on this earth without a country and city to call homes, and we will also be reigning with Him temporarily on this earth still without inheriting it as home.

Afterward, the promise of a city made and built of God will be inherited with the new heaven and earth.