The Sinless Christian??

[erin74]

Heb 11 - their faith was what made them righteous - not sinlessness

 

[tigersnare]

I don't think that is true. what about an old man in the hospital that is a believer why does he nessicarly have to sin. Why can't there be one that doesn't commit sin for days? Why can't you repent constantly?
Give me an example of a sin that you commit instantly after you repent.
Adam was perfect before the fall, Noah was righteous, Job was righteous, Abraham was considered righteous when he offered his son Isaac.

Maybe there is some one who can not commit sin for days, I just seriously doubt it.

You could repent constantly, but are you really repenting then?

An example? How about getting up off your knees after repenting and still not giving a flip about your loud, obnoxcious, offensive co worker who you know very well is not converted and needs to hear the gospel but you can't stand to be in the same room with them much less have a conversation with them.

Those men were righteous just as we are...made rigtheous by God through faith, yet still sinners.

 

[5solas]

If he forgives our sins wouldn't that mean we are sinless every time we repent?

I would not think of myself even repenting in a way that pleases God.... but even this He will forgive me - such a wonderful and graceful God!

You are right: Abraham, Noah, Job are called righteous - but not sinless. There is definitely only one person called sinless in the bible: Jesus.
And I agree with Tigersnare who said: "Those men were righteous just as we are...made rigtheous by God through faith, yet still sinners."

The judge will look at us and say: "Not guilty!" Why? Because of Jesus Christ who made us righteous - He who died for His people.

 

[CHARLES H]

I would not think of myself even repenting in a way that pleases God.... but even this He will forgive me - such a wonderful and graceful God!

You are right: Abraham, Noah, Job are called righteous - but not sinless. There is definitely only one person called sinless in the bible: Jesus.
And I agree with Tigersnare who said: "Those men were righteous just as we are...made rigtheous by God through faith, yet still sinners."

The judge will look at us and say: "Not guilty!" Why? Because of Jesus Christ who made us righteous - He who died for His people.

i absolutely agree. good job.

 

[orthedoxy]

I would not think of myself even repenting in a way that pleases God.... but even this He will forgive me - such a wonderful and graceful God!

You are right: Abraham, Noah, Job are called righteous - but not sinless. There is definitely only one person called sinless in the bible: Jesus.
And I agree with Tigersnare who said: "Those men were righteous just as we are...made rigtheous by God through faith, yet still sinners."

The judge will look at us and say: "Not guilty!" Why? Because of Jesus Christ who made us righteous - He who died for His people.

Adam was sinless, Job was blameless, and Abraham offered a sin offering( his son) for forgiveness of sin that is an example of Jesus that forgives our sins.
I’m not sure if you are saying Jesus doesn’t forgive sins or forgiveness doesn’t mean we are free from the sins?
Jesus made us righteous by being the Passover lamb that takes away sins and us receiving that sacrifice. When we do that we are righteous because we have no sin they are forgiven.
I don’t see how you can separate sinless and righteous? When one repents are his sins still counted against him? If not then wouldn’t that make them righteous?
Please explain

 

[Irishcat922]

We and every other saint throughout history are righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. In a sense we stand before God perfect in Christ. (the Mystical union of the believer with Christ) But as scripture is clear on, is that in no way means that God does not demand obedience to his law, nor are we capable of ever being without sin. While we are United to Christ, we are and shall continue to be until that union is consumated at death, or His second coming, live in these sinful bodies, and as I said that will not end in this life.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of1 God by faith:

 

[orthedoxy]

We and every other saint throughout history are righteous because of the imputed righteousness of Christ. In a sense we stand before God perfect in Christ. (the Mystical union of the believer with Christ) But as scripture is clear on, is that in no way means that God does not demand obedience to his law, nor are we capable of ever being without sin. While we are United to Christ, we are and shall continue to be until that union is consumated at death, or His second coming, live in these sinful bodies, and as I said that will not end in this life.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Phi 3:9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of1 God by faith:

Let's take these verses in context.
1john3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
This seems to contradict your view of 1John 1:8

1John 1:8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
What do you think happens when we don't confess our sins are we still declared righteous?
Phil 3:9 is saying not having righteousness of the Law of Moses but that of faith.
I'm not sure what your point is.
The fact is God provide the Passover lamb but one needs to partake of it in order for it to be for you.
God doesn't receive it he provides it.
My question remain from previous post
" When one repents are his sins still counted against him? If not then wouldn’t that make them righteous?"

 

[Jon_]

Let's take these verses in context.
1john3:4 Everyone who sins breaks the law; in fact, sin is lawlessness. 5But you know that he appeared so that he might take away our sins. And in him is no sin. 6No one who lives in him keeps on sinning. No one who continues to sin has either seen him or known him.
This seems to contradict your view of 1John 1:8

1John 1:8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
What do you think happens when we don't confess our sins are we still declared righteous?
Phil 3:9 is saying not having righteousness of the Law of Moses but that of faith.
I'm not sure what your point is.
The fact is God provide the Passover lamb but one needs to partake of it in order for it to be for you.
God doesn't receive it he provides it.
My question remain from previous post
" When one repents are his sins still counted against him? If not then wouldn’t that make them righteous?"

This is not a debate forum, Orthodoxy.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Irishcat922]

I'm not sure what your point is.
The fact is God provide the Passover lamb but one needs to partake of it in order for it to be for you.
God doesn't receive it he provides it.
My question remain from previous post
" When one repents are his sins still counted against him? If not then wouldn’t that make them righteous?"[/QUOTE]

I think you have answered your own question here. That is the point, we have partaken of Christ, by faith in his finished work. God provides our righteousness, in fact he is our Righteousness. To answer your question, no, if regeneration, i.e the new birth precedes it.

 

[orthedoxy]

This is not a debate forum, Orthodoxy.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

I was just asking questions i wanted your take on it. Sorry that you feel that way i will stop asking.

 

[tigersnare]

We are discussing justification and santification, he has got them all jumbled up. He asked if I could explain what justification is in more simple terms so I said..

Since this is such a crucial doctrine I'll send you to greater minds than mine.

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/onsite/packer/justification.html

http://www.geftakysassembly.com/Articles/BiblicalExposition/JustificationByFaith.htm

The first is a quick explaination, the next is a little longer but covers more aspects, aspects we have been discussing.

Him, I like this definiton in your second link: "Therefore only those who have perfect righteousness are justified." Perfect righteousness has no unrighteouness(sin) in it. Bottom line!

Me, And apprently you haven't figured out who has that "perfect righteounsess". Micah, perfect righteouness is following God's law perfectly, never ONCE having ever transgressed it. No not even falling short one time.

Only Christ has thas done this, and only Christ has this to give. I'm sorry you still don't understand justification.

Me, I'll try again in the most simple clear terms that I can put it in.

God has set a standard of righteouness for every one. This standard must be met in order to recieve eternal life with him. That standard is perfection. Once we sin we lose our chance at perfection. If we break even one law, only once, we are guilty and are deserving of God's righteous judgement and wrath. But God made a way, he sent his son, who through his perfect obedience while on earth, made a perfect righteousness available. The condition to recieve this foreign righteouness, is to beleieve. After we do this, we recieve this righteouness that is none of our own. And since it is aboslutly perfect, it is all we need to recieve eternal life. Though we will be santified, as evidence of a geniune conversion to Christianity, our level of santification before death does not dictate our eternal standing with God.

Him, You've got it just about all right, except when we receive his righteousness, that is perfection. Our old natures have been put to death. We will no longer sin. Sure, we sinned in the past, but that doesn't mean the Lord won't forgive us and cleanse us of ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS.

Me, Micah I just don't know what to say. I have shown you where Paul was justified and at peace with God. Justified=PAST TENSE, it was a once and for all act. Then he goes on to talk about his current struggles with sin, what part of this are you not getting? Is it just that you want to so desperatly cling to your theology?

Me, And for some reason, you are still equating your righteouness before God with your santification. Santificaton is what you keep calling "sinless living", though most would never call it sinless. Even if one was to be able to live sinless after their conversion to Christianity, that still has absolutly no bearing on thier eternal position with God.

 

[Jon_]

Well, he is part right, but I think you are absolutely right that he is confusing the dynamics. It is true that once justified in Christ we are sinless before God. As Christ's sacrifice has atoned for all our sins past, present, and future, we no longer "sin" because we have been freed from the law of sin and death. Now, if I were to stop there, that would be quite the antinomian statement. I will not stop there, though. The Christian, as exorted throughout the Bible, is obligated to strive for sinless motions. That is, while sin is no longer imputed to us because Christ has atoned for our sins, we are to abstain from all sinful actions. This is the process of sanctification, wherein the Holy Spirit works in us to constantly reform our will that we should live holy lives, free from sin. We will never be able to stop producing sinful motions in this life, but we can grow in holiness by the power of God's grace.

So, in a sense, he is right; but in context, he is wrong. His error is in asserting that our sinful natures have been entirely destroyed and that we no longer naturally will sin. This is a great error on his part. We absolutely still produce natural motions toward sin, but those actions coming into fruition no longer condemn those who are in Christ. That is the big difference. There is a big danger of antinomianism in the Perfectionist movement. Those who truly believe their flesh has been perfected in Christ run the risk of complacency. If they are perfect, then there is no motivation to produce good works because everything they do in their perfection is a good work. Obviously, this is amounts to a false gospel.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[tigersnare]

Well, he is part right, but I think you are absolutely right that he is confusing the dynamics. It is true that once justified in Christ we are sinless before God. As Christ's sacrifice has atoned for all our sins past, present, and future, we no longer "sin" because we have been freed from the law of sin and death. Now, if I were to stop there, that would be quite the antinomian statement. I will not stop there, though. The Christian, as exorted throughout the Bible, is obligated to strive for sinless motions. That is, while sin is no longer imputed to us because Christ has atoned for our sins, we are to abstain from all sinful actions. This is the process of sanctification, wherein the Holy Spirit works in us to constantly reform our will that we should live holy lives, free from sin. We will never be able to stop producing sinful motions in this life, but we can grow in holiness by the power of God's grace.

So, in a sense, he is right; but in context, he is wrong. His error is in asserting that our sinful natures have been entirely destroyed and that we no longer naturally will sin. This is a great error on his part. We absolutely still produce natural motions toward sin, but those actions coming into fruition no longer condemn those who are in Christ. That is the big difference. There is a big danger of antinomianism in the Perfectionist movement. Those who truly believe their flesh has been perfected in Christ run the risk of complacency. If they are perfect, then there is no motivation to produce good works because everything they do in their perfection is a good work. Obviously, this is amounts to a false gospel.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Jon I have to ask if you view of sin, or our lack there of, is one of orthodox Reformed thought?

 

[Jon_]

Jon I have to ask if you view of sin, or our lack there of, is one of orthodox Reformed thought?

My knowledge of hamartiology has been derived almost entirely from personal reading and meditation on God's Word. Why? Have I said something heretical?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[tigersnare]

My knowledge of hamartiology has been derived almost entirely from personal reading and meditation on God's Word. Why? Have I said something heretical?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

Haha, I'm just not sure about this "we can no longer sin" thing. Not to say you are wrong, or that personal reading and meditation isn't great, but how do you feel about checking your interpretations against those of others?

 

[Jon_]

Haha, I'm just not sure about this "we can no longer sin" thing. Not to say you are wrong, or that personal reading and meditation isn't great, but how do you feel about checking your interpretations against those of others?

Funny you should mention that because I've been especially looking for Reformed works on hamartiology. It seems like there is a veritable dearth of them, however. Any suggestions?

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Imblessed]

Well, he is part right, but I think you are absolutely right that he is confusing the dynamics. It is true that once justified in Christ we are sinless before God. As Christ's sacrifice has atoned for all our sins past, present, and future, we no longer "sin" because we have been freed from the law of sin and death. Now, if I were to stop there, that would be quite the antinomian statement. I will not stop there, though. The Christian, as exorted throughout the Bible, is obligated to strive for sinless motions. That is, while sin is no longer imputed to us because Christ has atoned for our sins, we are to abstain from all sinful actions. This is the process of sanctification, wherein the Holy Spirit works in us to constantly reform our will that we should live holy lives, free from sin. We will never be able to stop producing sinful motions in this life, but we can grow in holiness by the power of God's grace.

So, in a sense, he is right; but in context, he is wrong. His error is in asserting that our sinful natures have been entirely destroyed and that we no longer naturally will sin. This is a great error on his part. We absolutely still produce natural motions toward sin, but those actions coming into fruition no longer condemn those who are in Christ. That is the big difference. There is a big danger of antinomianism in the Perfectionist movement. Those who truly believe their flesh has been perfected in Christ run the risk of complacency. If they are perfect, then there is no motivation to produce good works because everything they do in their perfection is a good work. Obviously, this is amounts to a false gospel.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

without any "study" into this, Jon, the way you put this is the way I understand it also.

We are "technically" sinless only because we are forgiven for our sins(past, present, AND future) already----that is to say, Jesus paid the price for them already.

Yet we still "sin" everyday, doing the very things that will condemn unregenerate man---and we must strive eveyday to put those actions to "death".

Personally, I believe that there are a few people out there who are "virtually sinless", because they have done such a good job of "dying in Christ" everyday. does that make sense at all? I believe that it does get easier to put away sin as our walk with Christ progresses, and I believe that we can conceivably go for a while without sinning, and I believe that is what every Christ follower should be striving to do--in fact, is commanded to do----- But I also believe that it is impossible for anyone to actually ACHIEVE a sinless state, and live a perfect live.

That's my take on it, and I believe it's basically what you said Jon, just put into my words. Let me know if I misunderstood you........

windi

 

[tigersnare]

Jon, I am trying to understand, does this work?

"We can still transgress the law, but that trangression is no longer counted against us"? Does that equal sinlessness?

 

[Jon_]

Jon, I am trying to understand, does this work?

"We can still transgress the law, but that trangression is no longer counted against us"? Does that equal sinlessness?

Well, like I said, in a sense. Do we still manifest sinful motions and act on them? Yes. Is sin still imputed to us? No.

Anyway you look at it, your friend is definitely wrong. He is asserting something that is entirely unbiblical, viz. that we stop producing sinful motions after we are saved. That is simply not true.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[Jon_]

without any "study" into this, Jon, the way you put this is the way I understand it also.

We are "technically" sinless only because we are forgiven for our sins(past, present, AND future) already----that is to say, Jesus paid the price for them already.

Yet we still "sin" everyday, doing the very things that will condemn unregenerate man---and we must strive eveyday to put those actions to "death".

Personally, I believe that there are a few people out there who are "virtually sinless", because they have done such a good job of "dying in Christ" everyday. does that make sense at all? I believe that it does get easier to put away sin as our walk with Christ progresses, and I believe that we can conceivably go for a while without sinning, and I believe that is what every Christ follower should be striving to do--in fact, is commanded to do----- But I also believe that it is impossible for anyone to actually ACHIEVE a sinless state, and live a perfect live.

That's my take on it, and I believe it's basically what you said Jon, just put into my words. Let me know if I misunderstood you........

windi

You nailed it, Windi! I think this is kinda the way we "have" to look at it in light of passages like 1 John 3:5-10. Unless we want to deny a sufficient atonement, of course.

Because of the nature of sin and of our existence on earth, I just have a hard time of conceiving of anyone attaining to a sinless state in the flesh. Even though there are been some truly holy and saintly people, the truth of the corruption of sin in our being is so prevalent that I do not think we are separated from it until physical death. When you simply consider that everything is either righteous or unrighteous and that total righteousness requires complete submission to God's will all the time, doubt starts to creep in. Are we ever really capable of being totally assenting to God's will all of the time in absolutely everything? Moreover, are we even capable of knowing that will all the time? You see, sin isn't just lying, stealing, lusting, etc., sin is anything that "misses the mark" of God's righteousness. God being the perfect being that he is requires perfection of us. I do not think it is possible for a being with a sinful nature to ever achieve perfection. And make no mistake that even after we are regenerated the sinful nature still lives on.

I'm with you, though, I think that there are periods where we can do really well. I know that I have had them at times. There have been periods when I have felt so close to him and felt the Spirit's presence in me at almost every waking hour of the day. Those moments have been fleeting, however. But like you said, the more we commit to our part of sanctification, the easier the road becomes and the more we are able to trust in his grace to deliver us.

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon