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The single biggest problem with the education system.

OldWiseGuy

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Maybe, but I find an unwarranted dose of negativity regarding the educational system (in the U.S.) and it almost always comes from religious conservatives. If your point is that these young students should have the full support of the educational system, the American public, and a larger portion of the budget--then we agree. Myself--I work at a charter school and my kids to to a Protestant private school.

My whole point is that as long as we insist that kids attend school we should insist that they learn what's being taught. Remember that the curriculum is written so that the least intelligent in the group will understand it. That means that except for mental defect everyone should successfully learn the lessons.

It would also help immensely it the students were given copies of the lesson plans for the courses. That way they would have some idea of what they are supposed to learn going in, and teaching/learning would be a more cooperative effort.
 
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Caliban

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My whole point is that as long as we insist that kids attend school we should insist that they learn what's being taught. Remember that the curriculum is written so that the least intelligent in the group will understand it. That means that except for mental defect everyone should successfully learn the lessons.

I'm not sure what you mean by "insist." Many of the students who fail to learn the standards drop out of school. Some school districts have a 60% dropout rate. Others do not graduate high school because they do not pass their courses. I don't know how familiar you are with this process, so I apologize if I say anything obvious or come across as insulting your knowledge base but, these are some of the things I did not know before I became a teacher.

There are several graduation tracks in American high schools (some variety state-to-state).
1. Some students are on an A-G track. These are classes which are prerequisites for university entrance. They include Chemistry, Algebra II, and English which focuses on academic reading and writing. These classes are moderately rigorous and necessary for acceptance into tier 3 Universities.

2. Non-A-G-- Not all students can pass A-G classes. There are different levels of student maturation and cognition. Many students who are not A-G tracked, later become highly success fun in college and their carrier. Some of these students include those with an IEP or 504 plan (special education). Through no fault of their own, they require extra support
Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) - NCLD

3. Advanced Placement (AP) Honors--These students aced at academic work. They have a higher IQ distribution, tend to be self motivated, and have support at home. These students are routinely accepted to tier 1 and 2 universities. They are about 10% of the student population.

Teachers and administrators further distinguish between learner types: Kinesthetic Learners, Audio Learners, Visual Learners etc:
CAST: About Universal Design for Learning

Students are not a homogenous group. They do not all have the same abilities or come in the same shoe size. There is an incredible amount of variability in cognitive ability, language proficiency, and personal difficulty. My students have parents who are in jail, deported, abusive, addicted, cognitively impaired etc. Few of my students, or most students, in America, come from middle class families with two car garages. They struggle to keep up with kids who's parents buy them computers, printers, and cars to drive to school.

Curriculum is not written so the "least intelligent in the group will understand it." The standards are high. Educators do what we can, given the students we are given, to help each student meet those standards. These kids need to be read stories before bed at night. They need to be taught how to count back change at three years old. They need more support than what is available to them. It's not about curriculum.
 
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Caliban

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Sounds like a big mess compared to my high school years (graduated in 1958).
Yep, the education system is unrecognizable from that period. The problems and the solutions are different.
 
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timothyu

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Sounds like a big mess compared to my high school years (graduated in 1958).
Perhaps the problem is not 'what' they are teaching but the reasons 'why' they are teaching as they do today. Motive is always the bottom line. Think of it as 12 years of brainwashing disguised as practical education, the proverbial 'brick in the wall'.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Perhaps the problem is not 'what' they are teaching but the reasons 'why' they are teaching as they do today. Motive is always the bottom line. Think of it as 12 years of brainwashing disguised as practical education, the proverbial 'brick in the wall'.

One wonders if the problems faced by education today are the result of their own education policies of yesterday. In other words have they created their own Frankenstein monster? :eek:

Many schools tout the success of their graduates i.e. how "they have gone on to be" this and that successful figure. How about a peek at all the graduates? What has become of the 'others' over time?
 
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Caliban

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"
Perhaps the problem is not 'what' they are teaching but the reasons 'why' they are teaching as they do today. Motive is always the bottom line. Think of it as 12 years of brainwashing disguised as practical education, the proverbial 'brick in the wall'.
Brainwashing? Sounds conspiratorial.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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"

Brainwashing? Sounds conspiratorial.

I would say myopic, lacking comprehensiveness. For example the school doesn't teach poor kids why they are poor, and how to overcome it. Same with fat, unfit, or unhealthy kids (can't do anything about ugly however). They should be shown why they are in that condition and what they must do to make positive changes.

Paraphrasing Ronald Reagan; "It's hard to drain the swamp (educate the kids) when we're up to our kiester in alligators (kid's personal and family problems).
 
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Caliban

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I would say myopic, lacking comprehensiveness. For example the school doesn't teach poor kids why they are poor, and how to overcome it. Same with fat, unfit, or unhealthy kids (can't do anything about ugly however). They should be shown why they are in that condition and what they must do to make positive changes (lipstick on a pig example).

In words of Ronald Reagan, "It's hard to drain the swamp (educate the kids) when we're up to our kiester in alligators (kid's personal and family problems).
Schools are tactful enough o never tell a kid they are poor but, they sure teach kids how to break the cycle of poverty. They also try to educate kids about physical education and healthy diets. However, there is one political party that always complains whenever a teacher mentions anything other than basic skills; remember the drama over Michelle Obama's school health initiative? Fox News had a good laugh over that.
 
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OldWiseGuy

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Schools are tactful enough o never tell a kid they are poor but, they sure teach kids how to break the cycle of poverty. They also try to educate kids about physical education and healthy diets. However, there is one political party that always complains whenever a teacher mentions anything other than basic skills; remember the drama over Michelle Obama's school health initiative? Fox News had a good laugh over that.

We need to persuade the kids, for their own good.

https://vlipsy.com/vlip/the-last-king-of-scotland-you-did-not-persuade-me-wXXJVWSY
 
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Caliban

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If only it were that easy. During the past school year, I had my students read scientific articles on the effects of marijuana use on the developing brain; they then composed argumentative and explanatory essays. Five of those students were later caught smoking weed on the bus.

Nine other students refused to turn in late work, or even sometimes, to do work while in class. These are actually very sweat and endearing student's whom I like a lot but, they are apathetic and did not pass my class. Contrary to public perception, teachers do not just "pass" a student who does not earn it.

The reasons for apathy and or distractedness which I have witnessed in my students include:

1. A girl who's father who sustained 85% burns to his body pulling her out of their burning apartment.
2. A boy who lost his eye because he quit a gang and was beaten within an inch of his life for it (he has difficulty reading now and gets migraines in class which make him cry).
3. Several students molested by family members.
4. Students who get busted by the drug dog because the smell of their parents drugs are on their clothes and backpack.

Comfortable America has little idea about what teacher do all day or what the solutions are.

If you stake a child future on the teacher's ability to persuade students, you are setting everyone up for failure.
 
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Caliban

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I think most would call it patriotic
What ever "most" people do or think is rarely the answer. The problems in this world are nuanced, intractable, but ultimately solvable. You are welcome to become a teacher and help.
 
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timothyu

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If you stake a child future on the teacher's ability to persuade students, you are setting everyone up for failure.
I believe the first five years of life set up a person for what they will become as a personality in adulthood, quite often long before the school system gets a hold of them. In this age of shirking personal responsibility it is quite often the case the parent will hand off the job of upbringing the child to the system, or at least blame the system if the kid doesn't turn out reasonably civilized and intelligent. As rights replace responsibility we will see a return to the uncivilized and selfish behaviour of past eras of a 'tribal' mentality.
 
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Caliban

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I believe the first five years of life set up a person for what they will become as a personality in adulthood, quite often long before the school system gets a hold of them. In this age of shirking personal responsibility it is quite often the case the parent will hand off the job of upbringing the child to the system, or at least blame the system if the kid doesn't turn out reasonably civilized and intelligent. As rights replace responsibility we will see a return to the uncivilized and selfish behaviour of past eras of a 'tribal' mentality.
I agree with what you said about early development. Teacher get students after the software has already been installed and then we are asked to perform miracles. We still try.
 
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timothyu

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You are welcome to become a teacher and help.
If a teacher wants to help then return the students to an age of responsibility before rights. 30 years already of the reverse can only bring about more hardship down the road.
 
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Caliban

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If a teacher wants to help then return the students to an age of responsibility before rights. 30 years of the reverse can only bring about more hardship.
I have no idea what you mean by age of responsibility or 30 years of hardship. Can you clarify?
 
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timothyu

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I have no idea what you mean by age of responsibility or 30 years of hardship. Can you clarify?
The system, not the parents, started teaching the kids 30 years ago about their rights, setting aside responsibility as the prime focus. That generation is producing a new generation based on those principles and people wonder why the apathy and avarice today.
 
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Caliban

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The system, not the parents, started teaching the kids 30 years ago about their rights, setting aside responsibility as the prime focus. That generation is producing a new generation based on those principles and people wonder why the apathy and avarice today.
So why are you on this forum criticizing the educational system if you locate the responsibility with parents?
 
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timothyu

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So why are you on this forum criticizing the educational system
As I said, the system changed the rules, not the parents. I remember quite well the rash of false accusations against teachers, support staff and parents, as students flexed their new found muscles of rights over responsibility. You don't give young inmates that sort of power within the asylum.You won't have as many leaving the fold as responsible young adults either, preferring self entitlement instead. As for those suffering abuse at home or at the hand of other self entitled bullies, in many cases it may only harden the resolve of the victims to become rights seekers as we see in the media today where lives and careers are ruined merely by an accusation rather than a proper trial.
 
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