I don't know what you are talking about.
No, it's the whole world that follows the AC, not any single country or nation.
Armageddon (Rev 16) destroys Babylon (Rev 18)Christ did not return to fight the beast and his army at the time you are claiming Armageddon happened.
Are you saying the book of Revelation, ἀποκάλυψις, εως, ἡ, literally meaning uncovering, is not speaking of future events. General consensus is that the book of Revelation was written from around 70-100 AD, which means that John would have been uncovering past or current events, if you truly believe that the Roman destruction of the temple, because Jerusalem wasn't destroyed only sacked, is the actual armageddon.Armageddon (Rev 16) destroys Babylon (Rev 18)
the Church, the body of Christ on earth, preaching the Gospel with a sharp tongue, afterwards defeats the Beast (Rev 19) before the Millennium (Rev 20) before the little time of Gog and Magog before Final Judgement with flaming fire from heaven at the Second Coming
- Armageddon = first Jewish Roman war
- Babylon = Jerusalem
- Babylon destroyed = 70ad
- Beast defeated = Constantine, Council of Nicaea 325ad
- Millennium = Constantinople, Byzantine empire
- Gog and Magog = 15th century to present
- Final Judgement @ 2C = ???
Over. The past 2000 years, the prophecies of revelation have. Played out as written. All the way down to revelation 20. Verse 8...
God hasn't been wrong yet.
The flood of Noah was literal. Waters of the Earth. Destroyed the known world 5000 years ago. Scripture always compares the coming fire from heaven. With the waters of Noah of the Earth. 2 Peter 3.
As Noah's flood waters of the earth was a literal event, so I literally interpret "fire from heaven". Revelation 20:9.
(Fire from Heaven obviously alludes of course to Sodom, which is another mystical name for Babylon, Egypt = first century apostate Jerusalem also. So, themes in revelation recapitulate. The sinful spiritual condition of Sodom 4000 years ago reemerged in Jerusalem, 2000 years ago. And has remerged today. Justifying God's wrath of God.)
"Armageddon" destroyed "Babylon" in 70 AD
View attachment 252066
Christ defeated the "Beast" in the 4th century AD
Constantine
View attachment 252067
Council of Nicaea (Nike="Victory")
View attachment 252068
Millennium
Byzantine empire
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Gog and Magog
fire from heaven ??? (literally interpreted)
View attachment 252071
John was told to write down the things that were past, present and future TO HIM. Remember, an event future to someone 2000 years ago does not necessitate it be future to us today...Are you saying the book of Revelation, ἀποκάλυψις, εως, ἡ, literally meaning uncovering, is not speaking of future events.
General consensus is that the book of Revelation was written from around 70-100 AD, which means that John would have been uncovering past or current events,
Robert Young (1885)
"[Revelation] was written in Patmos about A.D.68, whither John had been banished by Domitious Nero, as stated in the title of the Syriac version of the book...The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date."
(Commentary on Revelation - Young's Analytical Concordance)
if you truly believe that the Roman destruction of the temple, because Jerusalem wasn't destroyed only sacked, is the actual armageddon.
Depend on your source. If you use references from authority that aren't universally accepted you need to use another authority OR come up with a rational for your position. Yours is using Muratorian Canob, which is dated around the end of the 2nd century and based in Rome. A list from the 2nd century, supported by Rome, does not have an bearing on either a book written 100+ years prior to the list or a protestant. Short version, we can agree to disagree. I do have one question, if preterist are correct, when exactly did Christ return to earth to rule for 1000 years?John was told to write down the things that were past, present and future TO HIM. Remember, an event future to someone 2000 years ago does not necessitate it be future to us today...
The Muratorian Canon (A.D. 170)
"the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name."
"John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all. "
The Muratorian Canon is the oldest Latin church document of Rome, and of very great importance for the history of the canon. The witness of this manuscript, which is from the very era of Irenaeus and just prior to Clement of Alexandria, virtually demands the early date for Revelation. The relevant portion of the document states that "the blessed Apostle Paul, following the rule of his predecessor John, writes to no more than seven churches by name" and "John too, indeed, in the Apocalypse, although he writes to only seven churches, yet addresses all." The writer of the Canon clearly teaches that John preceded Paul in writing letters to seven churches. And, church historians are agreed that Paul died before A.D. 70, either in A.D. 67 or 68. Therefore, the book of Revelation with its letters to seven churches was known by Paul before Paul's death, according to the Muratorian Canon.
Like the vast majority of Biblical scholars, Robert Young believes Revelation was written during Nero's reign and he claims that the internal testimony of the book is wholly in favor of this early date. Here is a mere snippet of the overwhelming INTERNAL evidence:
* The time statements refer to soon events of cataclysmic Jewish importance. If it was written in 96 AD, there are no events soon from that time that could even remotely fit. If, however, it was before 70 AD, then the destruction of Jerusalem rises to the occasion as both Jewish and cataclysmic. The time statements demand we look here, and there is no historic support for a persecution of the Church under Domitian in the 90s.
* According to the epistles to the churches, there were still Judaizers (Revelation 2:9; 3:9) presenting problems in the churches. This, would be ridiculous after 70 AD
* The temple and the city were apparently still standing in Revelation 11, because John is sent to measure them. This would not be possible after 70 AD. And if John is referring to some rebuilt temple in the far distant future, and he is writing in 96 AD, then his complete silence about the destruction of the temple and city in 70 AD is deafening.
* There were "other apostles" still around according to Revelation 2:2. Tradition has it that all the apostles were dead before 70 AD and John was the only original surviving past that time.
* Caesar Nero's name in Hebrew gematria adds up to 666. Since this was written about soon events, no other person can be found within this time scope whose name fits this requirement and description. Especially none can be found in the soon future of 96 AD.
* Nearly all scholars believe Revelation is inextricably linked to the Olivet Discourse. Since the best commentaries on the Olivet show it is speaking of the events leading up to AD 70, so must Revelation be speaking of the same events.
* The 6th king in Revelation 17 is the one that persecutes the saints. The Roman emperors as listed by Josephus and Tacitus are (1) Julius, (2) Augustus, (3) Tiberius, (4) Caligula, (5) Claudius, then (6) Nero.Nero was the first and only Roman Caesar of the Julian line to persecute Christians. Nero's death ended the Julian dynasty. The one ruling after him reigned only a little while.. . Galba, for 6 months. If the 6th king is indeed Nero, he would be the one that "now is" according to the prophecy, and this would date the writing before 68 AD when Nero supposedly committed suicide. Nero also persecuted Christians for 42 months as is stated in the prophecy.
The internal evidence of the book of Revelation demands the Neronic date. Robert Young was right: "The internal testimony is wholly in favor of the earlier date." As also do the majority of Published Scholars affirm.
What if I do truly believe it?
I listed multiple examples of INTERNAL EVIDENCE from the Book of Revelation itself that I couldn't help but notice you avoided addressing...(even though your Avatar tagline implores us to "quote scripture or our argument is invalid) it doesn't get to be much more of a "universally accepted" source than the Book of Revelation itself, does it? When you refuse to address quoted scripture that you REQUIRE the rest of us to present you with, then I'd say it's your argument that is invalid.Depend on your source. If you use references from authority that aren't universally accepted you need to use another authority OR come up with a rational for your position.
I do have one question, if preterist are correct,
when exactly did Christ return to earth to rule for 1000 years?
One has to keep on mind the time frame. The Old Covenant is no longer in effect. A covenant Israel failed to keep. Jesus has obeyed every bit of the Law as He clearly stated that is why He came.To say the harlot represents apostate Israel doesn't make much sense. The letter is written in the Christian age to Christians. Christians are the "spiritual" Isreal, the harlot representing the apostate church makes much more sense. Especially, in light of the fact, that Paul foretold of the falling away in 2nd Thessalonians.
In Him
I didn't address the scripture references you cited as I believe you are are taking them out of context or making them fit what you believe rather than taking them literally as they are written. Based on that rationale there isn't a point in contending the issue, as I do not believe you will actually discuss from a literary point of view.I listed multiple examples of INTERNAL EVIDENCE from the Book of Revelation itself that I couldn't help but notice you avoided addressing...(even though your Avatar tagline implores us to "quote scripture or our argument is invalid) it doesn't get to be much more of a "universally accepted" source than the Book of Revelation itself, does it? When you refuse to address quoted scripture that you REQUIRE the rest of us to present you with, then I'd say it's your argument that is invalid.
Well, preterists are correct, but Somehow I doubt you only have one question, and this is it...
That's 2 questions...
1) The timing of the Coming of Christ
2) the timing and meaning of the 1000 year reign
1)The timing (and NATURE) of the Coming of Christ
The cloud-coming of Revelation 1:7 that "every eye would see" is shown in Revelation 14:14-20 to be an event that occurs in the heavenly realms. As the passage reveals, Christ's actions and commands in the heavenlies result in various tribulation-period disasters that transpire on earth. Simply put, Revelation 14:14-20 is the cloud-coming that "every eye would see." This is significant, for St. John is not describing the coming of Christ as some visual spectacular with cumulus clouds in the skies overhead, but as the coming of Yahweh himself, making Christ equal with the Father. Jesus promised his apostles that he would return in their lifetimes "in the glory of the Father" (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34). Christ's return at AD 67-70 was precisely in the manner and tradition of Yahweh's Old-Testament-era comings. We have countless examples of the Father coming in His great glory during the Old Testamental period (be sure to note the graphic, physical descriptions and explicit "visual" connotations of Yahweh's comings):
[On Yahweh's coming to Egypt -- early 700s BC] Behold, Yahweh rides on a swift cloud, and comes to Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall tremble at his presence; and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. I will stir up the Egyptians against the Egyptians (Isaiah 19:1-2)
[On Yahweh's coming during the Maccabean Period] For I have bent Judah for me, I have filled the bow with Ephraim; and I will stir up your sons, Zion, against your sons, Greece, and will make you as the sword of a mighty man. Yahweh shall be seen over them, and his arrow shall go forth as the lightning; and the Lord Yahweh will blow the trumpet, and will go with whirlwinds of the south. Yahweh of Hosts will defend them; and they shall devour, and shall tread down the sling-stones; and they shall drink, and make a noise as through wine; and they shall be filled like bowls, like the corners of the altar. Yahweh their God will save them in that day (Zechariah 9:13-16)
[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] Therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Because you are turbulent more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my ordinances, neither have done after the ordinances of the nations that are round about you; therefore thus says the Lord Yahweh: Behold, I, even I, am against you; and I will execute judgments in the midst of you before the eyes of the nations. I will do in you that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all your abominations (Ez 5:7-9)
[On Yahweh's coming to Israel for Babylonian Exile - 6th Century BC] As I live, says the Lord Yahweh, surely with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out, will I be king over you: and I will bring you out from the peoples, and will gather you out of the countries in which you are scattered, with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with wrath poured out; and I will bring you into the wilderness of the peoples, and there will I enter into judgment with you face to face...Hear the word of Yahweh: Thus says the Lord Yahweh, Behold, I will kindle a fire in you, and it shall devour every green tree in you, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burnt thereby. All flesh shall see that I, Yahweh, have kindled it...Thus says Yahweh: Behold, I am against you, and will draw forth my sword out of its sheath, and will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked. Seeing then that I will cut off from you the righteous and the wicked, therefore shall my sword go forth out of its sheath against all flesh from the south to the north: and all flesh shall know that I, Yahweh, have drawn forth my sword out of its sheath (Ez 20:33-35,47-48; 21:3-5)
Jehovah hath made bare His holy arm before the eyes of all nations (Isa 52:10)
These are just a few examples of the Father's Old-Testament comings, but there are many others: Yahweh came down and shot arrows at Saul and his armies, shaking the earth's foundations and the heavens at that time (2 Sam 22:8-16); Yahweh is depicted as having destroyed the universe when he judged Israel through Babylon (Jer 4:22-30), and did so again when he judged Egypt by Babylon's King Nebuchadnezzar (Ez 32:1-16). The Father entered into judgments with Egypt and Assyria in a spectacular coming in Isaiah 31. Habakkuk's depiction of Jehovah's coming at Mt. Sinai is nothing less than apocalyptic (Hab 3:3-16). Were any of these OT comings visual, physical/literal appearances of Yahweh as the prophets describe in metaphorical prophetic language? Of course not (Jn 1:18; 1 Jn 4:12)--the Hebrews understood that no human could ever see Yahweh and live (Exodus 33:20).
Importantly, these comings of the Father form the entire backdrop for the doctrine of the "coming" of Christ, for it was in this manner of the Father's glory that Christ said he would come (Matt 16:27-28; Lk. 9:26; Matt 24:33-34).
As stated in Matthew 21:40-45, the Lord of the Vineyard came to the apostate leaders of first-century Israel and was The Stone that crushed them to powder, removing the Kingdom of God from them and giving it to a new Nation. Jesus Christ, the Lord of heaven and earth, came in the glory of the Father and did so in the lifetimes of the apostles, exactly as he promised (Matt 16:27-28; 24:33-34).
2) The timing and meaning of the 1000 year reign
The Bible itself proves there is no literal, FUTURE, earthly millennium. The "evidence" is in the apostolic eschatological doctrine that prohibits any view of the "millennium" that portrays it as a future, literal, earthly epoch. A simple examination of the NT epistles shows that there is no future historical "thousand-years" period. We know this with certainty, for the apostles explicitly identified the precise timing of the resurrection, the judgment, and the New Heaven/Earth -- they all occur at the coming of Jesus Christ, thus proving that there is no literal "thousand years" that separates these events out over time.
(1) The resurrection occurs at the coming of Christ (1 Cor 15:23)
(2) The judgment occurs at the coming of Christ (2 Tim 4:1; Rev 11:15-18)
(3) The "New Heavens/Earth" occurs at the coming of Christ -- i.e., the "thief's coming," the "day of the Lord" (2 Pet 3:10/1 Thess 5:2)
These key eschatological events all occur at the precice moment of the coming of Jesus Christ. THEREFORE, as the apostles themselves understood, there is no literal, historic millennium separating them.
As we all know, the popular dispensational/millennialist maps separate these three eschatological events by a period of 1000 historic years--or, in some cases, 1007 years. The bible doesn't allow it. The bible proves there is no literal earthly "millennium." Once we understand the plain truth of this, we can turn our efforts to understanding the apostolic teaching of the "thousand years" as a typological symbol--one of many in John's highly typological and symbolic vision.
What is it a Typological Symbol of?
The Thousand years is a typological reference to the length of the Davidic Monarchy, from David, the first King in the line, to Christ, the Final, and Completion/Restoration of the Line, which is a period of... wait for it......1000 years!
The "Thousand years" shows that Christ fulfilled the hopes of the Davidic Monarchy that Christ would fill David's office as King (Luke 1:68-69; Acts 2:30-36; 1 Timothy 1:17; Mark 11:10; ) and restore the tabernacle of David (Acts 15:16-17) so that all the gentile nations could join in to the true worship of Jehovah. The 1000 years shows a completed Monarchy instead of the fact that the Monarchy had fallen into ruin in the 500s BC via the Babylonian captivity.
David and Christ being the only 2 Kings in the line that matter, David the type, Christ the antitype, or fulfillment.
Christ fulfilled what all other kings in the line failed to do, thus bringing completion to, and fulfilling the purpose for, the Davidic monarchy, which was the "1000 year reign".
Again, the idea of a thousand years reign with Israel's Monarchy was an Old Testament hope -- one that was wished for but failed. The hopes of this glorious reign were laid out when Solomon took the throne after David. It was said that Israel would walk in the covenant blessings, and so much so that the Gentiles would come into the covenant (such as the Queen of Sheba's homage to Solomon). However, the "tabernacle of David" began to quickly crumble, and fell into total ruin by the time of the Babylonian exile. This all summarizes an OT type. Now, fast-forward to all the NT typology about Jesus being the TRUE "son of David" who was born as THE MESSIANIC HEIR to David's throne for raising up the Monarchy. This is what Revelation 20 is doing. It is using the Davidic Monarchy typology and applying it to Christ and the martyr-kings who reign in the Christic Monarchy, and it does so in exactly the same typological sense as other types we are more familiar with (Jesus is the "sacrifical lamb," etc). In Revelation 20 we see Jesus and his tribulation-martyr-kings reign; they defeat satan; they bring in the gentiles; and they judge the world. These are all the things hoped for in the OT times, but fulfilled in Jesus Christ and the New Covenant Church. The Church has all dominion with Christ over heaven and earth, satan was defeated, the gentles are now in the covenant, and Christ and the Church are the judges of the whole world.
I didn't address the scripture references you cited as I believe you are are taking them out of context or making them fit what you believe rather than taking them literally as they are written. Based on that rationale there isn't a point in contending the issue, as I do not believe you will actually discuss from a literary point of view.
Well considering I'm at work, and not going to go into detail on my phone, I merely stated why I don't think it would be productive to engage. That's why.What context did he take them "out of" exactly? In debates when evidence and interpretation are presented, you typically point out specifically what is wrong with the evidence and why it is interpreted incorrectly. Stating a generic statement like "your taking them out of context" without providing any examples doesn't really help the fellow readers who are trying to learn.
Parousia70 made several arguments using specific examples and scripture. It appears you are simply trying to get the "last word" instead of opening up a constructive dialogue.
Of course the whole world follows the AC, BUT America is the who're that rides the beast's back, and deliciously shared the wine of her fornication and iniquity with the rest of the world.
It is the nation that will cause the world to weep because in a day it will be gone, and the nations wont be able to trade gold and precious things like before.
the Church, the body of Christ on earth, preaching the Gospel with a sharp tongue, afterwards defeats the Beast (Rev 19)
The Seven Hills is a MISNOMER from the start. The 7 Headed Beast IS = to the Seven Mountains and they are ALSO 7 Kings.....5 have fallen {Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia and Greece} ONE IS {Rome}, and one is YET TO COME {Anti-Christ}.Hello All
So what is this city that sits on Seven Hills. That by Default must also be a religious system that has the Blood of Saints on its hands.
to the Seven Mountains and they are ALSO 7 Kings
So the 7 Headed Beat is = to 7 Powers who ARISE. How can it be a city on 7 hills/mountains, when its 7 different Kingdoms ?
Hello Erik
What year was Revelation written in?
Yep.If i may give my view. There are some that state it was written earlier than 70AD!
A Hell of a Lot of Confusion
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