The Seven Hills the harlot Sits on

[RDKirk]

That is off topic.

No, it's not off topic. If written after 70AD, then Jerusalem has already been laid waste so the prophesy isn't referring to Jerusalem--at least not the physical Jerusalem.

 

[RDKirk]

Some Protestants would say Rome due to the Vatican. This was popular during the reformation, it's possible, but not a sure thing. People like to demonize the Pope, and the Roman Catholic Church, time will tell. Back in the day, there were other candidates for the city, the names escape me now.

Even if it is Rome, that need not mean the Vatican. More likely, it would refer to the economic and political leader of the world (which Rome was at that time) which exists at the time of the Lord's return.

Right now, that's the United States. And I can pose an argument that the United States is just a province of Rome.

 

[RDKirk]

That happened on 70AD and has been happening every since - ie: the Nazi holocaust for example.

But I don't believe that is what John spoke about.

But there is what we might call the same kind of spirit of false self-righteousness and rigid piety tied to carnal government structure that is characterized by Jerusalem of that day.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

shilohsfoal said: ↑
According to scripture the ten horns hate the harlot and make her naked.It is also written they give thiet power and strength to the beast.
I can show you where the beast arrives in Jerusalem killing the people and raping the women.

Can you show me the same being done to Rome?

Yes, it did. Around 410 AD, I believe.

Yes. What goes around, comes around.............

Matthew 23
37 - “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather<1996> your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!
38 Behold! the House of ye is being left desolate/a wilderness<2048>

Note the Temple Menorah being taken:

Jewish–Roman wars - Wikipedia

...

=======================================

Then some 400 years later, God took down the Roman Empire and the invaders took off with the Menorah.
Truthfully, I really didn't know Rome had held onto it that long.

This picture shows a Menorah being taken during the sacking of Rome.

Sack of Rome (455) - Wikipedia

What Caused The Fall of the Roman Empire?

"..not shall be left STONE UPON STONE in Thee.." 70ad Jerusalem/Temple Discourse

 

[ewq1938]

Right now, that's the United States.

Hardly. The US is a puppet of much more powerful people, who actually control everything in the world. That is the beast of Rev 13:1, it just isn't the time for it to rise publicly. For now it remains hidden in the sea but will rise one day. Satan ultimately is giving the highest orders as scripture states he is the ruler of the world and has been for a long time.

 

[timothyu]

This picture shows a Menorah being taken during the sacking of Rome.

Captured on a smartphone

 

[mmksparbud]

Stonings? Nerf balls?

That happened--but seldom, and for adultery, stealing, profaning the name of God and so forth. They stoned Stephen--it was not wholesale slaughter all over the world, for believing in and reading the scriptures and believing them instead of the pope.

There has been no other church that had world power and control for thousands of years, lost it, and now, slowly, has gotten it back. It is not Jerusalem. They never had control over the world, and never will--they can hardly control their own pand and didn't even have their own land until a few years ago.

 

[timothyu]

That happened--but seldom, and for adultery, stealing, profaning the name of God and so forth. They stoned Stephen--it was not wholesale slaughter all over the world, for believing in and reading the scriptures and believing them instead of the pope.

Right,so the statement they could not kill but turned them over to the Romans was mistaken. They killed all along.

 

[mmksparbud]

Right,so the statement they could not kill but turned them over to the Romans was mistaken. They killed all along.

Again--it was not wholesaled slaughter by their own hands --- all over the world---They can be held responsible for much--but not for the millions that the Catholic church killed.
And even Jesus, during His time called them hypocrites and plainly stated they killed their prophets ---it is Jesus that is talking to John in Rev. He did not need to cloak anything about the Jews in mystery.

 

[Erik Nelson]

So you believe rome will invade jerusalem and kill the two witnesses three days before the resurrection of te two witnesses?

Revelation 11:7 When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them.

I understand why Muslims would invade jerusalem and kill those in jerusalem and its because they are taught to do so in the hadith and quran,but why do you believe Rome has any intension of invading jerusalem and killing the two witnesses?

Last i read,the Medes live in present day Iran.Not Rome.

Jeremiah 51:11 Sharpen the arrows! Take up the shields! The LORD has aroused the spirit of the kings of the Medes, because His plan is aimed at Babylon to destroy her, for it is the vengeance of the LORD--vengeance for His temple.

pagan Rome conquered Jerusalem in 70ad

the Jewish Roman war of 66-73ad was "Armageddon", destroying "Babylon", terribly and tragically as described by Josephus

 

[ewq1938]

the Jewish Roman war of 66-73ad was "Armageddon",

No, Armageddon is a war between Jesus and his Christian army and the beast and his army and it hasn't happened yet.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

 

[Erik Nelson]

No, Armageddon is a war between Jesus and his Christian army and the beast and his army and it hasn't happened yet.

Rev 16:14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.
Rev 16:15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
Rev 16:16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Rev 19:16 And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
Rev 19:17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
Rev 19:18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

except that Armageddon occurs near the "Euphrates" (v.12) and destroys "Babylon" (v.19)

"Babylon" on the "Euphrates" symbolized first century Jerusalem where the Lord was Crucified (Rev 11:8)

 

[ewq1938]

except that Armageddon occurs near the "Euphrates" (v.12) and destroys "Babylon" (v.19)

"Babylon" on the "Euphrates" symbolized first century Jerusalem where the Lord was Crucified (Rev 11:8)

Christ did not return to fight the beast and his army at the time you are claiming Armageddon happened.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Ok.You believe Babylon us responsible for the death of tge saints.
Can you tell me what year Christ came back to earth?

I don't know what you are talking about.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

Yeah.

Plus Jerusalem is not already destroyed in Rev. He writes in Rev 11 that an earthquake destroys a tenth of the city which means before that the city was undestroyed and by the end of the trib only a tenth was destroyed and by earthquake not Roman army. In Rev 11 John even measures the temple so in Rev the temple and city are undamaged and at the end of the trib the city only has ten percent damage.

If John was on Patmos, then it had to be after 70AD. This is because when the Romans were seen approaching Jerusalem, the Apostle John led the Christians out of the city and beyond the range of the Roman attack. By the time John got to Patmos, Jerusalem was destroyed. The book of Revelation was written after John returned from Patmos and while he was in Ephesus later in his life.

Therefore, the Jewish Temple could not have been the temple referred to in Revelation. because it was destroyed by the Romans as Jesus said it would be.

Guesswork interpretation of Revelation of this type can easily be refuted by just the elementary study of First Century history.

 

[Presbyterian Continuist]

But there is what we might call the same kind of spirit of false self-righteousness and rigid piety tied to carnal government structure that is characterized by Jerusalem of that day.

Possibly, but Rome was the centre of the then known world, and it was the centre of commerce for the Empire. The reference in Revelation concerning the merchants weeping because their organisations and income has been destroyed points to Rome more than Jerusalem, which was not the centre of commerce for the Roman Empire.

 

[ewq1938]

Guesswork interpretation of Revelation of this type can easily be refuted by just the elementary study of First Century history.

It is "Guesswork interpretation of Revelation" that claims so much, or all of Rev, was fulfilled in the past. The only things of the past were shadows and types. Never confuse a shadow for the real thing.

The tribulation found in Rev is yet future not part of the past.

 

[ewq1938]

The reference in Revelation concerning the merchants weeping because their organisations and income has been destroyed points to Rome more than Jerusalem, which was not the centre of commerce for the Roman Empire.

That ref was not for the time of John's writing but the future king/kingdom that was yet to come:

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

"and one is" was the Romans when John wrote this book, "the other is not yet come" was not Romans and has not arrived yet.

 

[RDKirk]

Possibly, but Rome was the centre of the then known world, and it was the centre of commerce for the Empire. The reference in Revelation concerning the merchants weeping because their organisations and income has been destroyed points to Rome more than Jerusalem, which was not the centre of commerce for the Roman Empire.

I would stay unfettered to any specific interpretation, myself.

 

[shilohsfoal]

pagan Rome conquered Jerusalem in 70ad

the Jewish Roman war of 66-73ad was "Armageddon", destroying "Babylon", terribly and tragically as described by Josephus

So who were the kings of the east who invaded israel during the war of armeggedon?