The serious danger of Doctrinal error....

[StTherese]

That is the same type of argument the "universalists" use.

God Bless

Till all are one.

I wasn't trying to say that no one will be lost, although I hope that no one is....I was trying to prove the point that God does not will for us to be lost like those who believe in double predestination.

 

[StTherese]

If you give someone a gift and they reject it...how can they then possess it?

the same applies to salvation...it's a gift that must be accepted.

I agree with you...I noticed that my post didn't quite come out the way I was intending.

The point you just made was the one I was trying to get those who believe in the Calvinist predestination to see....that the reason we can be lost is by the rejection of God's grace.

 

[cygnusx1]

not all gifts have to be accepted , my inheritence was mine without my consent , and the idea of rejecting it was never ever under consideration !

 

[StTherese]

not all gifts have to be accepted , my inheritence was mine without my consent , and the idea of rejecting it was never ever under consideration !

God created us with freewill. We make our own decisions in this life. We can accept God or we can reject Him...it is up to us. He freely gives us all the grace necessary for our salvation, but it is up to us to receive it.

Would it do any good if you had a talent (a special gift) to play the piano and did not play or put it to use?

 

[cygnusx1]

God created us with freewill. We make our own decisions in this life. We can accept God or we can reject Him...it is up to us. He freely gives us all the grace necessary for our salvation, but it is up to us to receive it.

Would it do any good if you had a talent (a special gift) to play the piano and did not play or put it to use?

free will is mostly an illusion , there are many factors to why people choose what they choose , no one chooses in a vacuum.

 

[jmacvols]

Why is Jesus saying differently? Or what do you mean by "church"? Lk 9:49-50.

The church is the body of Christ, it comes from "ekklesia" meaning the called out. Those that obey the gospel are added by the Lord to his church, his body and become part of the called out. Only those that are in the church, the Lord's body, will be saved. And the Lord has just but one church, Mt 16:18-"my church". "My" shows possession of the church belongs to Christ and "church" is singular, the Lord does not have various "churches" with conflicting doctrines.

Well, Romans 6 simply states this as usual (and that of the Romans). I agree with that. Faith normally causes obedient works (and imperfectly, 1 Cor 13). But those works don't save. The faith does.

Rom 6:17,18 shows that their justification came as a result of their having "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine", not by faith alone.

In Rom 10 "Obedience to the Gospel" here is not actually performing works. Here the term is for credulous submission to the message: "believe". It does typically result in actions that are obedient, yes. But that's not specifically what the word demands. Obedience is not always works.

Rom 10:1-3- Paul's concern was that Israel be saved, for they had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, verse 2. Verse 3 shows they were not saved because the went about to establish their own righteousness (works of merit) nad had not submitted themselves (had not obeyed) the righteousness (commandments) of God. Israel was lost for they had not obeyed the commandmetns of God.

If you obey a summons to rest, is that work?

Not sure what you mean here, but he Lord requires obedience to the gospel to be saved, not rest.

Paul isn't condemning them for having divisions, Paul is condemning them for pressing their divisions into breaking up the congregation. "You must have divisions to tell who's approved among you." If that's the condemnation: you're condemned. So am I.

Paul most certainly is condemning them for the division, you must read it again. 1 Cor 1:10-13 that there be "no divisions among you" and they were to "speak the same thing".

I would say the verse is talking about specific doctrines that destroy faith. Faith is critical. Doctrines that destroy faith, they are also critical. But they are few: monotheism, Lordship, Salvation by the Messiah through faith, not works.

Unfortunately, that last doctrine ....

Rev 2:14-16 plainly shows that following the wrong doctrine will cause one to lose his salvation. You're essentially trying to argue that one can be in error and still be saved.

Well, that "if" wasn't there when Peter wrote it. A closer translation clarifies what's going on here:

be diligent to ensure your calling and choice, for these things doing, ye may never stumble​

I suspect you can see what the position is, taking the sentence down to its actual grammar. Peter's telling people: ensure your calling and choice: if you are doing these things you're not stumbling [so that ensures that you have a calling and choice].

This verse actually points up the clear distinction of Calvinism: "God ordains means as well as ends". By doing these things the Christian comes into conformity with his calling and choice just as Calvin said.

The KJV, NKJV, ESV, RSV,ASV among many, many more versions contain the word "if". Are you saying all these scholars/translators are wrong?
Peter is saying things must be done to make their election and calling sure, implying that if these things are not done they will fall. The phrase "if ye do" is in the present tense which means the doing must be ongoing and continuous and if one stops doing he can fall. The phrase 'ye shall never fall" is in the subjunctive mood which does not show a guarantee. It shows possiblity or potential that the action described may or may not happen depending upon circumstances, those circumstances being doing these things or not doing these things.

I'm saying that the Gospel isn't founded on our works. Works are not faith, nor part of faith. "not of works" Ep 2:9. "the one who does not work" Rom 4:4.

I agree that the gospel is not founded upon OUR works.
We must obey the gospel, that is, obey what the Lord said to do (obedience) and not do our own works (works of merit). We will will be lost for not obeying the gospel, 2 Thess 1:8.

The Gospel results in "for works", as a result of our rescue, not a cause. The paramedic doesn't demand the fire victim walk out of the fire on their own two feet. But the therapist will later, at the right time.

The gospel plainly puts obedience before salvation, Mk 16:16, both belief (obedience) and baptism (obedience) come before salvation.

And my point was that the reality of the situation is not nearly as far different as you want it to be. Satan often twists truths into a lie.

John didn't contradict himself. "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us." 1 John 1:8-10

"you have been saved ... not of yourselves ... not out of works" Ep 2:8-9

I have never said one is saved by doing his own works of merit but by doing righteousness (God's will).

John is not defining righteousness as doing righteousness. Paul flatly attacked such a position, John isn't reintroducing it, and John would contradict himself to even attempt such a statement.

John is saying the people who are doing righteousness externally can be considered the people who are righteous internally; and vice versa. There's no "doing right makes him right". No, the one who is righteous has a pattern (and not a complete pattern) of doing right things.

John's using a continuous sense of the verbs in 1 John. "The one who's doing righteousness, he's being righteous."

Doing righteousness is obeying God's will, Paul plainly teaches the same thing, Rom 6:16 obedience unto righteousness.

John says he that doeth righteousenss (obedience) is righteous.

Paul says obedience unto righteousness.

Both John and Paul say exactly the same thing.

1 Jn 3:7 "he that doeth" is in the present tense meaning that the 'doing' must be ongoing and continuous and if one stops 'doing' he will no longer be righteous.

Here's a quick test to show whether you've caught this continuous sense. John isn't contradicting himself by saying these two things. Do you recognize why?

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 Jn 1:8​

No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. 1 Jn 3:9​

ESV adds the continuing sense to 1 John 3:9:

No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God’s seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 1 Jn 3:9​

You're proving my point that salvation can be lost. If the continuous sense (present tense) ceases salvation is lost.​

According to Scripture, the first part's right; the second part's wrong. We're judged unrighteous by our works; but we're judged righteous through faith in God. Faith causes works; but works don't cause righteousness or faith.

By faith Abel offered God a better sacrifice than Cain did. By faith he was commended as a righteous man, when God spoke well of his offerings. And by faith he still speaks, even though he is dead. Heb 11:4​

Do not be like Cain, who belonged to the evil one and murdered his brother. And why did he murder him? Because his own actions were evil and his brother's were righteous. Do not be surprised, my brothers, if the world hates you. 1 Jn 3:12-13​

John plainly shows that the works one do are what makes him either righteous or evil. That is how God looks at it. You proved this by Heb 11:4. Abel offered unto God--(he obeyed) by which (his obedience in offering to God), he obtained witness that he was righteous. Had Abel not offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice, that is, had Abel not obeyed God's will, he would not have been righteous. It plainly takse doing (obeying) to be righteous. Again in Rom 6 Paul says one obeys unto righteousness.

 

[heymikey80]

The church is the body of Christ, it comes from "ekklesia" meaning the called out. Those that obey the gospel are added by the Lord to his church, his body and become part of the called out. Only those that are in the church, the Lord's body, will be saved. And the Lord has just but one church, Mt 16:18-"my church". "My" shows possession of the church belongs to Christ and "church" is singular, the Lord does not have various "churches" with conflicting doctrines.

there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 Cor 11:19

John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you." Lk 9:49-50
​

Rom 6:17,18 shows that their justification came as a result of their having "obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine", not by faith alone.

But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness. Rom 6:17-18
​

Btw, "faith alone" is in a specific sense, not in all senses:

[Faith] is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. Westminster Confession, 11.2
​

The constant aberration of the phrase "faith alone" would be as absurd as applying "the church alone" to the corporate world. Or to your family.

Show me where righteousness is a result of obedience here? You assert it, but I'm missing it.

Rom 10:1-3- Paul's concern was that Israel be saved, for they had a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge, verse 2. Verse 3 shows they were not saved because the went about to establish their own righteousness (works of merit) nad had not submitted themselves (had not obeyed) the righteousness (commandments) of God. Israel was lost for they had not obeyed the commandmetns of God.

ROFL! You don't hold a candle to the Jewish people's actual practicing of the commandments of God, even at this stage in history. "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:19

Not sure what you mean here, but he Lord requires obedience to the gospel to be saved, not rest.

Then why did the Apostle say rest? "Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it." Heb 4:1

Paul most certainly is condemning them for the division, you must read it again. 1 Cor 1:10-13 that there be "no divisions among you" and they were to "speak the same thing".

"There must be divisions among you" 1 Cor 11:19a That statement is not a condemnation. It's either an imperitive or a declaration. "in order that those who are approved among you may be recognized." 1 Cor 11:19b The divisions exist so you can learn to recognize those approved. With no division there is no discernment.

Rev 2:14-16 plainly shows that following the wrong doctrine will cause one to lose his salvation. You're essentially trying to argue that one can be in error and still be saved.

Of course someone can be in error and still be saved. Wouldn't you say sin is an error? Everyone who's saved is a sinner, too.

"While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Rom 5:8
"... God came to rescue sinners, of whom I am the first." Paul, 1 Tim 1:15

Are you saying Paul wasn't saved?

The KJV, NKJV, ESV, RSV,ASV among many, many more versions contain the word "if". Are you saying all these scholars/translators are wrong?

Translators translate the sense of words. They don't translate every attribute of the original language. It's wrong to assume they do. It's wrong to attribute to translators something that they didn't intend to do.

For example: far, far fewer translations put "if" in Heb 6:6. I believe KJV, NKJV does?

The Greek doesn't have it. Stephanus doesn't have it. Westcott-Hort doesn't have it. Are you saying your theology relies on 17-20th C. English translators instead of what the Apostles actually wrote?

Peter is saying things must be done to make their election and calling sure, implying that if these things are not done they will fall. The phrase "if ye do" is in the present tense which means the doing must be ongoing and continuous and if one stops doing he can fall.

But falling into sin isn't falling out of salvation.

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:37-39
​

The phrase 'ye shall never fall" is in the subjunctive mood which does not show a guarantee. It shows possiblity or potential that the action described may or may not happen depending upon circumstances, those circumstances being doing these things or not doing these things.

Subjunctives refer to the conditions in the context when they exist.

Oh, and another point: the translation you're using, "shall", conflicts with your accurate point that this is a subjunctive mood. Your translators are contradicting you. KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV use "shall". So you've confirmed my point above.

I agree that the gospel is not founded upon OUR works.

"not of works" Ep 2:9

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:2-5
​

We must obey the gospel, that is, obey what the Lord said to do (obedience) and not do our own works (works of merit). We will will be lost for not obeying the gospel, 2 Thess 1:8.
The gospel plainly puts obedience before salvation, Mk 16:16, both belief (obedience) and baptism (obedience) come before salvation.

I have never said one is saved by doing his own works of merit but by doing righteousness (God's will).

"not of works" -- see prior response.

The command is to quit working for your salvation. How do you obey such a command by performing works like baptism as a requirement?

Doing righteousness is obeying God's will, Paul plainly teaches the same thing, Rom 6:16 obedience unto righteousness.

John says he that doeth righteousenss (obedience) is righteous.

Paul says obedience unto righteousness.

Both John and Paul say exactly the same thing.

These are simply allusions to try to get Scripture to say something ... that it doesn't say, and that it actually contradicts explicitly in the same letters (Rom 4:1-5, 3:21-31, 1 John 1:8-10). Certainly Paul and John weren't writing incoherently in each letter? No. Your theology must comply with Scripture, not pick one idea you can plug into 3 verses, at the expense of all the rest of what Scripture says.

It's clear John says we all sin and we all must own our sins. As sin is not doing righteousness, either John is talking incoherently or he means something specific about associating righteous acts with righteousness. And it's not what you've said.

1 Jn 3:7 "he that doeth" is in the present tense meaning that the 'doing' must be ongoing and continuous and if one stops 'doing' he will no longer be righteous.
///
You're proving my point that salvation can be lost. If the continuous sense (present tense) ceases salvation is lost.

Sorry, that's a logical misstep in your argument. The contrapositive is the true reverse assertion -- not the double-contrary.

And your stretching it to salvation is not even what Peter said.

John plainly shows that the works one do are what makes him either righteous or evil. That is how God looks at it.

Then by your view we have nothing left, because John plainly shows we all sin (1 Jn 1:8). By your view, we're dead.

But I'm alive, because I know that John is talking about how to identify people who are righteous -- not about how righteousness is caused.

You proved this by Heb 11:4. Abel offered unto God--(he obeyed) by which (his obedience in offering to God), he obtained witness that he was righteous. Had Abel not offered unto God a more excellent sacrifice, that is, had Abel not obeyed God's will, he would not have been righteous.

Of course righteous acts show (witness) your righteousness. But obedience doesn't cause righteousness.

It plainly takse doing (obeying) to be righteous. Again in Rom 6 Paul says one obeys unto righteousness.

Nah. It plainly takes a change of heart to obey. It also takes a change of heart to be declared righteous. They're associated. They're not causal.

 

[heymikey80]

If you give someone a gift and they reject it...how can they then possess it?

the same applies to salvation...it's a gift that must be accepted.

The trouble is that no one naturally accepts this gift.

"no one understands; no one seeks for God." Rom 3:11

"Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus said to him, "How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?" Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. Jn 3:3-6
​

 

[heymikey80]

I wasn't trying to say that no one will be lost, although I hope that no one is....I was trying to prove the point that God does not will for us to be lost like those who believe in double predestination.

But God does condemn some people to be lost. How is that not His will? And God withholds things from some people, that if given fully would save them.

Then the disciples came and said to him, "Why do you speak to them in parables?" And he answered them, "To you it has been given to know the secrets of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been given. For to the one who has, more will be given, and he will have an abundance, but from the one who has not, even what he has will be taken away. This is why I speak to them in parables, because seeing they do not see, and hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand. Indeed, in their case the prophecy of Isaiah is fulfilled that says:

"'You will indeed hear but never understand,
and you will indeed see but never perceive.
For this people’s heart has grown dull,
and with their ears they can barely hear,
and their eyes they have closed,
lest they should see with their eyes
and hear with their ears
and understand with their heart
and turn, and I would heal them.' Mt 13:10-15
​

 

[jmacvols]

there must be factions among you in order that those who are genuine among you may be recognized. 1 Cor 11:19​

John answered, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in your name, and we tried to stop him, because he does not follow with us." But Jesus said to him, "Do not stop him, for the one who is not against you is for you." Lk 9:49-50​

So you prove that division is sinful. From the OT, those that sow discord among brethren are an abomination to God.​

Btw, "faith alone" is in a specific sense, not in all senses:

[Faith] is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love. Westminster Confession, 11.2​

The constant aberration of the phrase "faith alone" would be as absurd as applying "the church alone" to the corporate world. Or to your family.

THe phrase "faith alone" means a faith without works which James plainly says such a faith is dead.

Show me where righteousness is a result of obedience here? You assert it, but I'm missing it.

In Rom 6 Paul says "obedience unto righteousness". John says he that DOETH righteousness (obeying) is righteous.

ROFL! You don't hold a candle to the Jewish people's actual practicing of the commandments of God, even at this stage in history. "For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven." Mt 5:19

You don't understand what Paul is saying in Rom 10:3. Fleshly Israel was lost because they had not submitted (obeyed) the righteousness(commandments) of God.
Paul is saying they are lost because they have not obeyed the gospel, verse 16. Paul is not talking about Israel submitting themsleves to the OT laws here.

Then why did the Apostle say rest? "Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it." Heb 4:1

It requires obedience to enter into rest (heaven). Doing nothing will not get one into this rest. This verse plainly shows that savlation can be lost.

"There must be divisions among you" 1 Cor 11:19a That statement is not a condemnation. It's either an imperitive or a declaration. "in order that those who are approved among you may be recognized." 1 Cor 11:19b The divisions exist so you can learn to recognize those approved. With no division there is no discernment.

Of course someone can be in error and still be saved. Wouldn't you say sin is an error? Everyone who's saved is a sinner, too.

You say "one can be in error and still be saved" Amazing what the false teaching OSAS can cause people to believe. 2 Pet 2:1 false teachers bring in "damnable heresies" and people can believe "damnable heresies" and still be saved? No, it brings damnation not salvation.. Gal 1:8 anyone preaches error ie "another gospeL' let him be accursed. If one can be saved in error, then it makes no difference what one preaches, "another gospel" or not.
You say "everyone's who's saved is a sinner, too". Everyone is a sinner for all have sinned, but one cannot remain a sinner and enter heaven, he has to obey the gospel and have his sins remitted.

"While we were still sinners, Christ died for us." Rom 5:8
"... God came to rescue sinners, of whom I am the first." Paul, 1 Tim 1:15

Are you saying Paul wasn't saved?

Paul was saved because he was obedient. Christ died for all, but all will not be saved. Therefore there must be a factor that separates the saved from the lost and that factor is obedience to God's will.

Translators translate the sense of words. They don't translate every attribute of the original language. It's wrong to assume they do. It's wrong to attribute to translators something that they didn't intend to do.

For example: far, far fewer translations put "if" in Heb 6:6. I believe KJV, NKJV does?

The Greek doesn't have it. Stephanus doesn't have it. Westcott-Hort doesn't have it. Are you saying your theology relies on 17-20th C. English translators instead of what the Apostles actually wrote?

You're "explanation" here fails miserably. "If" is an appropriate translation.
Go to blueletterbible.com and look up 2 Pet 2:10 and click on the letter "c" by the verse. Not falling is dependant upon 'doing these things'. This implies not doing these things can cause one to fall, hence "if" is correctly rendered here. "If ye do" is present tense which shows the 'doing' must be ongoing and sustained and if one quits 'doing' he can fall. "Ye shall never fall" is in the subjunctive mood, which shows one may or may not fall depending upon whether he does these things. Absolutely nothing in this verse says salvation is a guarantee, the verse plainly shows otherwise.

But falling into sin isn't falling out of salvation.

No, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels nor rulers, nor things present nor things to come, nor powers, nor height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord. Rom 8:37-39​

Another amazing statement, so you say sin will not cause one to be lost. What then will cause one to be lost if not sin? ​

Rom 8 says nothing about the individual removing himself from God by sinning. Jude commands to keep yourselves in the love of God. This makes no sense if it is impossible to fall out of God's love. John 15;9,10 says those who keep His commandmetns are in His love. So one keeps himself in God's love by keeping His commandments. One falls from God's love by stop keeping His commandments.​

Subjunctives refer to the conditions in the context when they exist.

2 Pet 2:10 shall never fall is in the subjunctive mood. The subjunctive mood shows potential or possiblity that the action described may or may not occur depending upon the circumstances. So not falling is dependant upon doing or not doing these things. Again, absolutely nothing in this verse says savlation is a guarantee, it teaches the opposite.

Oh, and another point: the translation you're using, "shall", conflicts with your accurate point that this is a subjunctive mood. Your translators are contradicting you. KJV, NKJV, ASV, RSV use "shall". So you've confirmed my point above.

"ye shall never fall" is in the subjunctive mood, this does not show falling is impossible, but rather shows that fall is very much possible.

"not of works" Ep 2:9

​

For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him as righteousness." Now to the one who works, his wages are not counted as a gift but as his due. And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness Rom 4:2-5​

"not of works" -- see prior response.

The "works" in the context of Rom 3 and 4 is speaking about the OT work of circumcision, not NT obedience. James plainly says Abraham was justified by his obedience.

Eph 2:8----faith>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>saved
Eph 5:26--washing of water>>>>>>>cleansed

Saved and cleansed are the same thing, they are equal. Since there is but one way to be saved, both verses MUST say the same thing, so we can see that the Ephesians faith inluded washing of water, ie, baptism, ie obedience. Not of works in verse 9 refers to works of merit not obedience as just proven.

The command is to quit working for your salvation. How do you obey such a command by performing works like baptism as a requirement?

Works of Eph 2:9 are works of merit not NT obedience. I just harmonized verses between Eph 2:8 and Eph 5:26 showing that the Ephesians faith inlculded obedience. The bible shows that all works are not the same, and Eph 2:9 does not say all kinds of works.

These are simply allusions to try to get Scripture to say something ... that it doesn't say, and that it actually contradicts explicitly in the same letters (Rom 4:1-5, 3:21-31, 1 John 1:8-10). Certainly Paul and John weren't writing incoherently in each letter? No. Your theology must comply with Scripture, not pick one idea you can plug into 3 verses, at the expense of all the rest of what Scripture says.

ALLUSIONS?!?!?!?!?
You see what you only want to see is more like it!!!
He that DOETH righteousness is righteous. Anyone that cannot understand this simple statement just does not want to understand it. What about this statement is an "allusion"? NOWHERE in Romans did Paul ever say obedience is not necessary to salvation. In fact he taught the opposite. In Rom 4:1-5, you take out of context, the works here are works of the OT law (circumcision), not NT obedience. Rom 3 refers to works of the OT law, not NT obedience. 1 Jn 1:9 says we must confess, confessing is a form of obedience.

It's clear John says we all sin and we all must own our sins. As sin is not doing righteousness, either John is talking incoherently or he means something specific about associating righteous acts with righteousness. And it's not what you've said.

John said "he that doeth righteousness is righteous". A very plain statement that some just do not want to understand. Doing righteousness is the only thing that makes one righteous. John certainly did not saying "doing nothing" makes one righteous or "faith alone" makes one righteous. Abel was rightreous because his works were. John the baptizer's parents were righteous [Lk 1:6] because they obeyed God, they walked (obeyed) in all the commandmets and statutes of the Lord.

Sorry, that's a logical misstep in your argument. The contrapositive is the true reverse assertion -- not the double-contrary.

And your stretching it to salvation is not even what Peter said.

1 Jn 3:7 "he that doeth" is in the present tense, active voice. Thus doing righteousness must be ongoing, active thing. It is not a "logical misstep" -look it up yourself.

Then by your view we have nothing left, because John plainly shows we all sin (1 Jn 1:8). By your view, we're dead.

We are all sinners because we all sin, John did not say we cannot be saved. 1 Jn 1:9 John says ""IF"" we confess our sins Christ will forgive. Again, receiving forgiveness is dependant upon one obeying by confessing. Because people are sinners does not mean thay cannot confess their sins and get forgiveness. In Verse 7 John says ""BUT IF" we walk in the Light, the blood of Jesus cleanseth us from all sin. Again walking in the light is obedience and is in the present tense, subjunctive mood, so if one stops walking in the light his sins will stop being cleansed.

But I'm alive, because I know that John is talking about how to identify people who are righteous -- not about how righteousness is caused.

Of course righteous acts show (witness) your righteousness. But obedience doesn't cause righteousness.

This is NOT what John said. You try and make him say the opposite of what he did say!!!
He said "HE THAT DOETH RIGHTEOUSNESS IS RIGHTEOUS." He said nothing about "witness" and he did say doeth righteousness which is obedience make one righteous.

Nah.

You're denying Paul said "obedience unto righteousness"???

It plainly takes a change of heart to obey. It also takes a change of heart to be declared righteous. They're associated. They're not causal.

Regardless of what you say, the bible makes it clear that obedience is what makes one righteous. No verse says "do nothing and thou shalt be righteous".

 

[heymikey80]

So you prove that division is sinful. From the OT, those that sow discord among brethren are an abomination to God.

Nope. Discord is not the same as division. "Rightly dividing the Word" is not sinful. Dividing sheep from goats is not sinful.

Division isn't sinful. It's necessary. "THERE MUST be divisions among you."

I'm going to omit the rest because they're based on so many presumptions I don't consider the conclusions to reasonably follow from the assumptions, or from Scripture. If you want a response to any of them, write them in their own, single post.

Regardless of what you say, the bible makes it clear that obedience is what makes one righteous. No verse says "do nothing and thou shalt be righteous".

and to him who is not working, and is believing upon Him who is declaring righteous the ungodle, his faith is reckoned righteousness Rom 4:5
​

Not what I say. If you have an issue with Paul, say so.

 

[StTherese]

But God does condemn some people to be lost. How is that not His will? And God withholds things from some people, that if given fully would save them.

God does not force His will on us...that's how....His will is that we ALL will be saved...

 

[StTherese]

free will is mostly an illusion , there are many factors to why people choose what they choose , no one chooses in a vacuum.

Free will is not an illusion. We make choices to do things everyday...we can choose to allow things to influence us to choose something, but the decision is ultimately of our own will.

 

[heymikey80]

God does not force His will on us...that's how....His will is that we ALL will be saved...

You mean God won't force us into Hell if we don't want to go? Woohoo! Oh, wait, I've got to find that from God, not StTherese!

 

[heymikey80]

Free will is not an illusion. We make choices to do things everyday...we can choose to allow things to influence us to choose something, but the decision is ultimately of our own will.

If making choices is all you mean by free will, even Calvin's said, "no biggee". we're normally addressing a very different thing: whether the origins of our choices originate solely from our wills. We all think we make choices from our wills. The alternative is stoic fatalism.

But it's not very realistic to think our decisions are all from our own wills, or that other things don't restrict, eliminate, control, or influence or choices.

Those are not the same thing. Even though you've put them together in the same sentence, they are two different meanings of "free will". Do you propose to assert them both? Tell me how the latter could be true for any created thing.

 

[StTherese]

You mean God won't force us into Hell if we don't want to go? Woohoo! Oh, wait, I've got to find that from God, not StTherese!

Actually, that doesn't come from me, but from the Church that Christ established....

1 Tim 2 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

 

[cygnusx1]

Actually, that doesn't come from me, but from the Church that Christ established....

1 Tim 2 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

contextually 1 Tim 2:1-4 has reference to all men without distinction not all without exception.

The two sons of Eli , Hophni and Phinehas are just two of many witnesses that God does not desire and will the salvation of all sinners.

1 Sam 2



Chapter 2

1: Hannah also prayed and said, "My heart exults in the LORD; my strength is exalted in the LORD. My mouth derides my enemies, because I rejoice in thy salvation.
2: "There is none holy like the LORD, there is none besides thee; there is no rock like our God.
3: Talk no more so very proudly, let not arrogance come from your mouth; for the LORD is a God of knowledge, and by him actions are weighed.
4: The bows of the mighty are broken, but the feeble gird on strength.
5: Those who were full have hired themselves out for bread, but those who were hungry have ceased to hunger. The barren has borne seven, but she who has many children is forlorn.
6: The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up.
7: The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low, he also exalts.
8: He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap, to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD'S, and on them he has set the world.
9: "He will guard the feet of his faithful ones; but the wicked shall be cut off in darkness; for not by might shall a man prevail.
10: The adversaries of the LORD shall be broken to pieces; against them he will thunder in heaven. The LORD will judge the ends of the earth; he will give strength to his king, and exalt the power of his anointed."
11: Then Elka'nah went home to Ramah. And the boy ministered to the LORD, in the presence of Eli the priest.
12: Now the sons of Eli were worthless men; they had no regard for the LORD.
13: The custom of the priests with the people was that when any man offered sacrifice, the priest's servant would come, while the meat was boiling, with a three-pronged fork in his hand,
14: and he would thrust it into the pan, or kettle, or caldron, or pot; all that the fork brought up the priest would take for himself. So they did at Shiloh to all the Israelites who came there.
15: Moreover, before the fat was burned, the priest's servant would come and say to the man who was sacrificing, "Give meat for the priest to roast; for he will not accept boiled meat from you, but raw."
16: And if the man said to him, "Let them burn the fat first, and then take as much as you wish," he would say, "No, you must give it now; and if not, I will take it by force."
17: Thus the sin of the young men was very great in the sight of the LORD; for the men treated the offering of the LORD with contempt.
18: Samuel was ministering before the LORD, a boy girded with a linen ephod.
19: And his mother used to make for him a little robe and take it to him each year, when she went up with her husband to offer the yearly sacrifice.
20: Then Eli would bless Elka'nah and his wife, and say, "The LORD give you children by this woman for the loan which she lent to the LORD"; so then they would return to their home.
21: And the LORD visited Hannah, and she conceived and bore three sons and two daughters. And the boy Samuel grew in the presence of the LORD.
22: Now Eli was very old, and he heard all that his sons were doing to all Israel, and how they lay with the women who served at the entrance to the tent of meeting.
23: And he said to them, "Why do you do such things? For I hear of your evil dealings from all the people.
24: No, my sons; it is no good report that I hear the people of the LORD spreading abroad.
25: If a man sins against a man, God will mediate for him; but if a man sins against the LORD, who can intercede for him?" But they would not listen to the voice of their father; for it was the will of the LORD to slay them.








Remember ;

6: The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. 1 Sam 2

 

[cygnusx1]

The Amalekites are further witnesses that God does not desire and will the salvation of all sinners.


[FONT=Arial, Arial, Helvetica]"Thus says the LORD of hosts, 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did in opposing the Israelites when they came up out of Egypt. Now go and attack Amalek, and utterly destroy all they have; do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" 1 Sam. 15:2-3 (NRSV)[/FONT]

 

[cygnusx1]

The men women and children of Sodom and Gomorrah are further witnesses that God does not desire and will the salvation of all sinners.


Genesis 19


[1] The two angels came to Sodom in the evening; and Lot was sitting in the gate of Sodom. When Lot saw them, he rose to meet them, and bowed himself with his face to the earth,

[2] and said, "My lords, turn aside, I pray you, to your servant's house and spend the night, and wash your feet; then you may rise up early and go on your way." They said, "No; we will spend the night in the street."
[3] But he urged them strongly; so they turned aside to him and entered his house; and he made them a feast, and baked unleavened bread, and they ate.
[4] But before they lay down, the men of the city, the men of Sodom, both young and old, all the people to the last man, surrounded the house;
[5] and they called to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, that we may know them."
[6] Lot went out of the door to the men, shut the door after him,
[7] and said, "I beg you, my brothers, do not act so wickedly.
[8] Behold, I have two daughters who have not known man; let me bring them out to you, and do to them as you please; only do nothing to these men, for they have come under the shelter of my roof."
[9] But they said, "Stand back!" And they said, "This fellow came to sojourn, and he would play the judge! Now we will deal worse with you than with them." Then they pressed hard against the man Lot, and drew near to break the door.
[10] But the men put forth their hands and brought Lot into the house to them, and shut the door.
[11] And they struck with blindness the men who were at the door of the house, both small and great, so that they wearied themselves groping for the door.
[12] Then the men said to Lot, "Have you any one else here? Sons-in-law, sons, daughters, or any one you have in the city, bring them out of the place;

[13] for we are about to destroy this place, because the outcry against its people has become great before the LORD, and the LORD has sent us to destroy it."
[14] So Lot went out and said to his sons-in-law, who were to marry his daughters, "Up, get out of this place; for the LORD is about to destroy the city." But he seemed to his sons-in-law to be jesting.
[15] When morning dawned, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Arise, take your wife and your two daughters who are here, lest you be consumed in the punishment of the city."

[16] But he lingered; so the men seized him and his wife and his two daughters by the hand, the LORD being merciful to him, and they brought him forth and set him outside the city.
[17] And when they had brought them forth, they said, "Flee for your life; do not look back or stop anywhere in the valley; flee to the hills, lest you be consumed."
[18] And Lot said to them, "Oh, no, my lords;
[19] behold, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have shown me great kindness in saving my life; but I cannot flee to the hills, lest the disaster overtake me, and I die.
[20] Behold, yonder city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one. Let me escape there -- is it not a little one? -- and my life will be saved!"
[21] He said to him, "Behold, I grant you this favor also, that I will not overthrow the city of which you have spoken.
[22] Make haste, escape there; for I can do nothing till you arrive there." Therefore the name of the city was called Zo'ar.
[23] The sun had risen on the earth when Lot came to Zo'ar.
[24] Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomor'rah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

[25] and he overthrew those cities, and all the valley, and all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.
[26] But Lot's wife behind him looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.
[27] And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the LORD;
[28] and he looked down toward Sodom and Gomor'rah and toward all the land of the valley, and beheld, and lo, the smoke of the land went up like the smoke of a furnace.
[29] So it was that, when God destroyed the cities of the valley, God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in which Lot dwelt.

 

[heymikey80]

Actually, that doesn't come from me, but from the Church that Christ established....

1 Tim 2 1 1 First of all, then, I ask that supplications, prayers, petitions, and thanksgivings be offered for everyone, 2 for kings and for all in authority, that we may lead a quiet and tranquil life in all devotion and dignity. 3 This is good and pleasing to God our savior, 4 who wills everyone to be saved and to come to knowledge of the truth.

Well then Christ needs to bring them on the carpet.

Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they also will answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to you?' Then he will answer them, saying, 'Truly, I say to you, as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.' And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life. Mt 25:41-46
​

But of course, what you've quoted does not support what was concluded.