The Seperation of the Old and New Testament

[Jakkaru]

Now I am not sure if I have been exposed only to bad Christians or something, but one thing I am tired of hearing about is how many of the Christians I meet will say something written in the Old Testament is not in canon with their beliefs but at the same time use the Old Testament to preach. I know I am bad at describing my question so I will use a story.

I work at a movie theatre and Sunday mornings, a church has their mass in one of our auditoriums, very nice people. Now with that said, they know I am an agnostic atheist but we get along fine, although occasionally we will lightly debate on things as they always feel the need to convert me, however this is what sparked my question.

I was talking on the wrath of God and how, quite frankly in the Old Testament he can be quite a hothead. One of the church members says to understand the love that is God, I need to read the New Testament and stop thinking in the terms of the Old Testament. Fair enough, but then what of the Old Testament? I mean it is still canon. In the Old Testament it is stated that any man who works on the Sabbath(Sunday), should be put to death, yet I work on Sunday and rightly so in front of them. When I asked about this I met the answer "That's the Old Testament", yet again. Also in the Old Testament , it is stated that one cannot touch the skin of a big, a man should be put to death for planting two seperate crops side by side and anyone wearing a garment of two seperate threads is to be burned. When I brought these up I once again encountered the "that is the Old Testament".

Now recently I came out about my bisexuality. One of the Christians asked me about it who had heard and told me it was a sin. I knew it was but I wanted to see where it was written and he showed me, and it was written in the Old Testament.... so wait? All of those things written in the Old Testament mean nothing and are not true.. yet that one is? Doesn't this seem like picking and choosing? I am curious as to what exactly is considered canon and what is not and why?

 

[Rafael]

When the law was given, it was never meant to show the nature of God, but the extreme difference there is between the sinful selfish nature of man and the holyness and love of God. It is a vehicle of symbols that carry through to the true nature of God shown by His grace towards mankind by paying all of those penalties of the law once and for all time at the cross. If we do not understand the difference of what a little bit of cancer in a body can do, eventually, it is not because God has not tried to show us. A little sin allowed to flourish can destroy the whole body. So, some of the idioms and cultural icons of those days may be strange to us, but they still show that what seems to us as nit-picky, can be very serious when allowed to go on unadressed in the life of a group of people such as the children of Israel who are the children of promise and covenant with God. It is through Israel (Jacob) and His seed (descendants) that all nations and peoples are blessed - the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

 

[BigNorsk]

Well, both Old and New are canon. And all scripture is useful. But you would be right if you said that a lot of people just don't understand.

Everything in the Old Testament was pointing the way to the New and it was teaching about the New.

For instance you mentioned the Sabbath and anyone who worked on the Sabbath would be put to death. Now you made one big mistake. Sunday is not the Sabbath. The seventh day was the Sabbath day. But now we have the true Sabbath rest, not the shadow, the day, but the true rest in Jesus that one receives when he rests from his works through faith in Jesus. But guess what. Those who do not enter that rest will indeed be put to death. It will happen on judgement day.

And so it is with a lot of the law. We generally divide the law into parts like the ceremonial and the moral to help understand it. For instance, it wasn't moral to murder people under the law and it isn't moral to do so now. We can really see more "change" in the ceremonial laws. For instance animal sacrifices. Well Jesus perfect sufficient sacrifice that the animal sacrifices taught about and pointed to has now taken place. To return to animal sacrifices would be to deny the sacrifice of Jesus as sufficient. So, even if the temple was rebuilt and there was a place to sacrifice animals we wouldn't do it because the shadow has given way to the substance.

Hope that helps you understand a little. And as far as your sexuality. We don't see approval for sex outside of a man and a wife in marriage. It goes back to where God made mankind in his image, male and female. Through sex they become one, and the one male and one female is the most accurate reflectance of God. But some people want to teach it is some sort of special sin or worse sin or something. And that really isn't supported.

Marv

 

[Jakkaru]

When the law was given, it was never meant to show the nature of God, but the extreme difference there is between the sinful selfish nature of man and the holyness and love of God. It is a vehicle of symbols that carry through to the true nature of God shown by His grace towards mankind by paying all of those penalties of the law once and for all time at the cross. If we do not understand the difference of what a little bit of cancer in a body can do, eventually, it is not because God has not tried to show us. A little sin allowed to flourish can destroy the whole body. So, some of the idioms and cultural icons of those days may be strange to us, but they still show that what seems to us as nit-picky, can be very serious when allowed to go on unadressed in the life of a group of people such as the children of Israel who are the children of promise and covenant with God. It is through Israel (Jacob) and His seed (descendants) that all nations and peoples are blessed - the covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Okay, that was nice but it really did not answer anything. By your definition, the Old Testament is nothing more then propoganda.

Well, both Old and New are canon. And all scripture is useful. But you would be right if you said that a lot of people just don't understand.

Everything in the Old Testament was pointing the way to the New and it was teaching about the New.

For instance you mentioned the Sabbath and anyone who worked on the Sabbath would be put to death. Now you made one big mistake. Sunday is not the Sabbath. The seventh day was the Sabbath day. But now we have the true Sabbath rest, not the shadow, the day, but the true rest in Jesus that one receives when he rests from his works through faith in Jesus. But guess what. Those who do not enter that rest will indeed be put to death. It will happen on judgement day.

And so it is with a lot of the law. We generally divide the law into parts like the ceremonial and the moral to help understand it. For instance, it wasn't moral to murder people under the law and it isn't moral to do so now. We can really see more "change" in the ceremonial laws. For instance animal sacrifices. Well Jesus perfect sufficient sacrifice that the animal sacrifices taught about and pointed to has now taken place. To return to animal sacrifices would be to deny the sacrifice of Jesus as sufficient. So, even if the temple was rebuilt and there was a place to sacrifice animals we wouldn't do it because the shadow has given way to the substance.

Hope that helps you understand a little. And as far as your sexuality. We don't see approval for sex outside of a man and a wife in marriage. It goes back to where God made mankind in his image, male and female. Through sex they become one, and the one male and one female is the most accurate reflectance of God. But some people want to teach it is some sort of special sin or worse sin or something. And that really isn't supported.

Marv

Where as I understand your point, I ams till not understanding why something written as LAW in the Old Testament no longer becomes law or truthful in the Old Testament. I understand the Sabbath being Jesus now but not the other things I pointed out as well as a slew of new things.

 

[Lotuspetal_uk]

You'll probably find the answer to this being as diverse as the denominations available out there

Personally, I take on board the whole Bible both Old and New Testaments.Romans 7:7 is a good way of looking at it. Without the law, we would not have a measuring stick to ascertain when we are carrying out an act unacceptable to God. But when one uses the law to say that one won't get to heaven unless we do "x, y, z" in a particular order, then it becomes burdensome and a snare (because one renounces the gift of salvation and the freedom attached to it). This is what Paul addresses but alas through the centuries it has been watered down to say that "the law is dead".

To say that the law is no longer needed is just as wrong as to say that following the law "robot-like" will guarantee salvation.

I personally have found in my walk that I've noticed subtle changes within myself as my faith has increased which on further study I've discovered as part of the law. The difference was that I have not made a conscious effect to follow such things but it's as though it has been "changed" within me. I think the books of Romans and Galatians sums these up for the new believers, very well.

Hope that helps, and feel free to ask any more questions.

Shalom aleikhem (Peace be with you)!

LP

 

[Rafael]

Okay, that was nice but it really did not answer anything. By your definition, the Old Testament is nothing more then propoganda.

Propaganda, no, but revelation of the truth about the realities envolved with life and death, yes. One way leads to life, the other, eventual death. It seems to me that the propaganda is not propaganda when it fits, as all humans face death. Only a few listened to God throughout the Old Testament, and it was through them that all mankind was blessed. Abraham was the one person who listened first and received promise from God, and through His seed all other nations have been blessed.

 

[DaleM]

I ams till not understanding why something written as LAW in the Old Testament no longer becomes law or truthful in the Old Testament.

Lotuspetal is probably right - you could get a thousand different answers for this. If you will indulge me, I will attempt one explanation.

Let us look at what Jesus said -after all, Jesus is the lens through which the rest of the Bible is to be viewed. This is from the book of Matthew, chapter 5, as part of the Sermon on the Mount.

17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven

.
A common view is that Jesus is the fulfillment of the Old Testament Law. After His death and resurrection, the Mosaic Law, which was meant for the Jewish people, is not binding on Christians. But we are called to an even higher standard.

Jesus continues:

21: "You have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not kill; and whoever kills shall be liable to judgment.'
22: But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, `You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.
23: So if you are offering your gift at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you,
24: leave your gift there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25: Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison;
26: truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny.
27: "You have heard that it was said, `You shall not commit adultery.'
28: But I say to you that every one who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
29: If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body be thrown into hell.
30: And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away; it is better that you lose one of your members than that your whole body go into hell.
31: "It was also said, `Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.'
32: But I say to you that every one who divorces his wife, except on the ground of unchastity, makes her an adulteress; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.
33: "Again you have heard that it was said to the men of old, `You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn.'
34: But I say to you, Do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God,
35: or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King.
36: And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black.
37: Let what you say be simply `Yes' or `No'; anything more than this comes from evil.
38: "You have heard that it was said, `An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.'
39: But I say to you, Do not resist one who is evil. But if any one strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also;

That's a pretty high standard of conduct! :o I am afraid that I do not measure up to it, but fortunately God is forgiving. (Which doesn't excuse me from trying to do better).

You noticed that Christians tend to pick and choose which Old Testament verses they accept and which ones they ignore. Yeah, I noticed that too. How do we know which are still important and which are just historical "filler"? I think we have to rely on the 2000 years of Christian tradition - what Christians in the past have identified as important.

 

[Tpolg]

Until heaven and earth pass away, the Torah (Law) shall in no ways pass away.
Now, there are some commands that apply only to Cohanim (priests) some apply only to Jews, some apply only to those living in Israel, etc.
Now skip ahead to Christianity. It was determined at the council of Jerusalem* (and if you are a Christian you believe they were guided by the Holy Spirit) that the non-Jewish Christians need only obey those commandments of the Torah that had to do with sex, idolatry and the consumption of blood.


*Acts
19"It is my judgment, therefore, that we should not make it difficult for the Gentiles who are turning to God.
20Instead we should write to them, telling them to abstain from food polluted by idols, from sexual immorality, from the meat of strangled animals and from blood.
21For Moses has been preached in every city from the earliest times and is read in the synagogues on every Sabbath."

 

[calidog]

The Seperation of the Old and New Testament
The new testament speaks plenty on the subject of God's wrath on sin.

 

[BigNorsk]

Okay, that was nice but it really did not answer anything. By your definition, the Old Testament is nothing more then propoganda.





Where as I understand your point, I ams till not understanding why something written as LAW in the Old Testament no longer becomes law or truthful in the Old Testament. I understand the Sabbath being Jesus now but not the other things I pointed out as well as a slew of new things.

Many of the other things you point out are teaching that Israel was to separate themselves. If they mixed in the unclean people, it would cause them too to worship false gods.

So you see the dietary laws and the laws on two kinds and we don't observe them now because there is not just one group of people that are God's chosen, he has now sent us out into the whole world to share his message. Quite different than being told to be separate.

You can see this most clearly if you follow the dietary laws. After Noah and his family were saved through the flood. They were given all animals to eat. There were no unclean people so there was no need. Then when Israel was taken out of Egypt, they were to be a separate people. And so we see the distinction of clean and unclean foods.

Now, everyone, including you, have been atoned for. The penalty has been paid. All that remains is to receive it through faith. So we don't observe dietary laws because there is no unclean people, salvation is available to all.

If Jesus had only paid for the sins of some, I would think we would still have dietary laws and laws about keeping different fabrics separate and not using two different species of animal to pull things.

And you are right that many people do just pick and chose among the Old Testament verses.

Now the arguement could be that the Old Testament prohibition against homosexual sex was not a moral law but instead was a ceremonial law to teach about the image of God and as such really doesn't need to be followed by Christians. That though gets to be a difficult position to defend based on what is said about homosexual sex in the New Testament.

1Co 6:9-10 NET.
(9) Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived! The sexually immoral, idolaters, adulterers, passive homosexual partners, practicing homosexuals,
(10) thieves, the greedy, drunkards, the verbally abusive, and swindlers will not inherit the kingdom of God.
1Ti 1:8-11 NET.
(8) But we know that the law is good if someone uses it legitimately,
(9) realizing that law is not intended for a righteous person, but for lawless and rebellious people, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers,
(10) sexually immoral people, practicing homosexuals, kidnappers, liars, perjurers — in fact, for any who live contrary to sound teaching.
(11) This accords with the glorious gospel of the blessed God that was entrusted to me.

It becomes pretty clear that the prohibitions on homosexual sex are not just ceremonial in nature but moral, and as such, are not shadows replaced with the real, like would be the case with the Sabbath, and the sacrificial system and so on.

Christians really don't follow any of the laws of the Old Testament per se. It is that God's morality has not changed, so we may appear to follow the laws because we don't do (or at least shouldn't do) what is immoral. But it doesn't happen because we are following a set of laws. It happens because of God's love and how we act when we act properly is simple to do what God's love would have us naturally do.

The old man still hangs around and we still have the ability to act contrary to that love or even to convince ourselves that to act loving is something that isn't actually loving at all, so we still use the law to help us understand God's morality.

One thing you might run into is that some people will tell you the Old Testament is law and the New is Gospel, but that's not correct. Law and Gospel are mixed throughout the Bible. Paul could go into the synagogs and teach the Gospel from the Old Testament scriptures. No one has ever been saved by the law. The law points out our sinfulness.

Marv

 

[Merlin]

The old testament spells out the law which God gave us.
It defines sin, which is a violation of the law by definition.
That is important because it applies to everyoner and shows we all have 'sinned'

Christianity is about a different system.
The process of becoming a christian is having Jesus change the system from being enslaved by the law to a new life, one which is free from that old law.
We are (metaphorically) dead to the law.
The law does not apply after death.

 

[Solidlyhere]

I look at the Old Testament, and think that it is NOT the answer to Christianity.

If I want to talk to someone, I won't bring the OT up.
Jesus has the NEW answer to Religion: "Believe in ME, and don't worry about that pesky Old Testament."

Jesus showed that the OT was past its prime.
Jesus broke the Sabbath restrictions against work.
He broke cleanliness standards (washing before eating).
When asked about the 10 Commandments, He replaced them with 2 (Love God, Love others).
And many other things too.
The Jewish laws were for the Jews.
The new laws are for EVERYONE.

The Old Testament is dead ... long live the OT.

People who scrounge around in the Old Testament to prove that others are sinning are pitiful.
And they are missing the point of the New Testament: Love others.
Many people run around with rage at sinners; they think they are doing God's work by being righteously angry.
Oh well, many people can read the Message, but miss the Point of it.

News Flash: Jesus is Love
So, OT pounders: Be like Jesus ... give some Love.

 

[sbbqb7n16]

...Let us look at what Jesus said -after all, Jesus is the lens through which the rest of the Bible is to be viewed. This is from the book of Matthew, chapter 5, as part of the Sermon on the Mount...

17: "Think not that I have come to abolish the law and the prophets; I have come not to abolish them but to fulfil them.
18: For truly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.
19: Whoever then relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who does them and teaches them shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20: For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven...

Great passage! The Old rules still apply.

But how then can our righteousness exceed that of the scribes and Pharisees? Through God's forgiveness and the new life we have through Him.

Matt 12:31-32

31. "Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32. "Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Ephesians 4:20-24

20. But you did not learn Christ in this way,
21. if indeed you have heard Him and have been taught in Him, just as truth is in Jesus,
22. that, in reference to your former manner of life, you lay aside the old self, which is being corrupted in accordance with the lusts of deceit,
23. and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind,
24. and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.