the self replicating watch argument

[GenemZ]

Oh look, my dog just had a miracle!

You more you can understand what was taking place... from beginning to end? (no pun intended)... the more you would realize its a design marvel. Even the bacteria that smells bad serves a purpose.

Dullness is the enemy of life.

 

[GenemZ]

It all just "happened" by chance.

 

[truefiction1]

This tends to reinforce my experience with asking people for evidence of miracles, where the acceptance of such seems to be highly subjective.

Which of course only reinforces that a lot of what people believe are "miracles" probably aren't anything of the sort.

Of course the proofs of God's presence are highly subjective, otherwise the freedom to reject God (i.e. not put one's faith in God) could not be. Freewill is at the heart of these discussions. Objective proof of God's sovereignty just isn't possible so long as the freedom to turn volition either to good, or else to evil is present. We must each decide for ourselves if we want to be in God and God in us. When we do this, we become open to receiving grace, through which the evidence of God's presence becomes reality. This decision, between good vs evil, is characterized by continuously ignoring one's very own will and subjecting oneself to the will of God. That is why people don't see the miraculous realities that are all around, proof of God's presence, because they will not give up their own will and be subject to God's will.

 

[pitabread]

Of course the proofs of God's presence are highly subjective, otherwise the freedom to reject God (i.e. not put one's faith in God) could not be. Freewill is at the heart of these discussions. Objective proof of God's sovereignty just isn't possible so long as the freedom to turn volition either to good, or else to evil is present.

Not sure I really buy that, since objective evidence of the existence of the supernatural does not inherently require obedience to some doctrinal belief system.

We must each decide for ourselves if we want to be in God and God in us. When we do this, we become open to receiving grace, through which the evidence of God's presence becomes reality.

In a nutshell, "you'll believe when you believe". Circular logic.

That is why people don't see the miraculous realities that are all around, proof of God's presence, because they will not give up their own will and be subject to God's will.

Or alternatively there just aren't any miracles. After all, how could you tell the difference?

 

[VirOptimus]

I was conversing with another Christian when I wrote this, not atheists. But, since you have seen fit to butt in, We do indeed know such things. We speak of the things that we know with absolute certainty. Much of what science thinks it knows may be right, or may be shown to be wrong at some later point. Science is never exactly finished, and good scientists realize it, because they've seen many a scientific conjecture become disproved and redefined later on.

With regards to God, however, you do indeed know that God is, though you reason within yourself that if you rationalize away God (which isn't hard to do) then all is and will be well. By this mechanism we can ignore the will of God and dull our consciences. Having done this, we can go on to create a world, with our thoughts and actions, where things are not well -- not well at all. Nazis and communists loved science and hated God, refusing to believe God. The same created a living hell on earth when they came into power.

And the moral of this story is: God is real, and knowing and obeying the will of God is good for humankind and for the whole world. Also, believers are not opposed to the practice of science and its usefulness.

No, this is in error. If you ”knew” then faith would not be necessary.

Also, dont mix science with religion, its bad science and bad theology to do so.

 

[VirOptimus]

So! ... You come here to a Christian forum looking for science debate?

That took faith.

This is the science sub-forum. There is other places on the site if you want to preach.

 

[truefiction1]

No, this is in error. If you ”knew” then faith would not be necessary.

Also, dont mix science with religion, its bad science and bad theology to do so.

We worship what we do know, not what we do not know. Salvation is of the Orthodox Church. Therefor, there's no error being committed in saying that "we do know". I do get your point though. I just don't agree that faith = belief in something that isn't known with certainty.

Also, it's impossible for us to detach anything that exists from God, if we believe God to be Creator of all that there is. Thus, to us, science is the study of God's creation. Theology is studied through prayer and prayer is the source of all True Theology. We are theologians because we pray, and we can be scientists who study the material things that exist also, and usually are. The Church established the first formal medical hospital in the latter part of the 4th century, under the leadership of one Basil of Cesarea (known as Basil the Great), who was also a bishop of the Church. Other hospitals were built by Christian believers afterwards. Do you honestly believe that science ought to be, or even can be divorced from belief in God if we are really Christian? I don't.

 

[GenemZ]

Not sure I really buy that, since objective evidence of the existence of the supernatural does not inherently require obedience to some doctrinal belief system.

The Christian doctrinal system was not designed to cause us to believe something via brainwashing. Though .. false doctrine's goal (religion) is to brainwash.

Sound doctrine (accurate, competent teaching, exegeted from the Bible) is designed to explain to the believer his spiritual experience. Not to cause it.

Initially, its an unusual realm we enter into at the point of regeneration. ... Its a mysterious change at first for many. We suddenly find ourselves perceiving our life experience within a new dimensional realm that we never know existed before regeneration took place.

Good doctrinal teaching's purpose is to orient and stabilize the believer to the new realities of the state of having become spiritually alive.

Unfortunately... there are many imposters waiting for the lambs as they enter into the fold. These ones distort and misguide with planted kindness utilized in its expression...

 

[truefiction1]

Not sure I really buy that, since objective evidence of the existence of the supernatural does not inherently require obedience to some doctrinal belief system.

Grace (the Holy Spirit) is needed, not objective evidence of the supernatural realm, although such evidence does indeed exist. Such evidence is not enough to provide faith. Grace is needed for that. Grace doesn't absolutely depend on obedience to a specific doctrinal belief system to be present, but it does depend upon a certain "cooperation" with it on the part of those who would receive it. This cooperation requires a certain forgoing of the fulfillment of one's own will/desires in order to perform some virtuous action, or even have some virtuous thought that will lead to goodness. Even atheists can receive some grace, if they are humble and if they refuse to give quarter to dissolute thoughts. Even to be humble depends on grace and is a manifestation of its presence.

In a nutshell, "you'll believe when you believe". Circular logic.

How else is it supposed to work? The proof is always here, everywhere, but no one is forced to accept the proof because then their could be no freedom to choose. Believing in a good God and not believing in a good God hinges upon how much one either hates evil on the one hand, or on the other hand, how much one is become befriended with evil on account of how much they have suffered the level of sin to grow in them.

If grace is at work even in people who are not living the Orthodox Christian Life of self-denial for the sake of doing their good God's holy will, then what sort of grace do you think is sometimes found in those who are? When I say that such people really do see miracles, and a great many miracles at that, I'm absolutely, positively telling the truth.

Or alternatively there just aren't any miracles. After all, how could you tell the difference?

The mere fact of our existence is a miracle. It is the miracle that proves God. However, sin desensitizes psyches to such an extent that they cease to be aware of what wondrous miracles there are, and all becomes more or less mundane and ordinary, the existence of God doubtful. Have the sin burned away by grace, and the miraculous becomes evident and obvious. It is the hardness of our hearts that causes us to be blind to all the miracles of unspeakable and unfathomable quality and quantity.

 

[VirOptimus]

We worship what we do know, not what we do not know. Salvation is of the Orthodox Church. Therefor, there's no error being committed in saying that "we do know". I do get your point though. I just don't agree that faith = belief in something that isn't known with certainty.

Also, it's impossible for us to detach anything that exists from God, if we believe God to be Creator of all that there is. Thus, to us, science is the study of God's creation. Theology is studied through prayer and prayer is the source of all True Theology. We are theologians because we pray, and we can be scientists who study the material things that exist also, and usually are. The Church established the first formal medical hospital in the latter part of the 4th century, under the leadership of one Basil of Cesarea (known as Basil the Great), who was also a bishop of the Church. Other hospitals were built by Christian believers afterwards. Do you honestly believe that science ought to be, or even can be divorced from belief in God if we are really Christian? I don't.

Really really wishing something to be true does not equal ”knowledge”.

If you dont understand why science and religion cant mix then I urge you to learn the basics about metaphysics and science.

 

[truefiction1]

Really really wishing something to be true does not equal ”knowledge”.

If you dont understand why science and religion cant mix then I urge you to learn the basics about metaphysics and science.

Well, it isn't about wishing something to be true that isn't really true, it's about the knowing Truth with certainty on account of the action of grace within one's heart and mind.

 

[GenemZ]

Really really wishing something to be true does not equal ”knowledge”.

If you dont understand why science and religion cant mix then I urge you to learn the basics about metaphysics and science.

But... there are scientists who wish to believe that fossils which originated from an entirely different creation, are what we have evolved from.

Is that a secular counterpart to religion?

 

[VirOptimus]

But... there are scientists who wish to believe that fossils which originated from an entirely different creation, are what we have evolved from.

Is that a secular counterpart to religion?

That you dont understand the science does not make it into a religion.

Science is a description of the physical reality, denying physicsl reality is stupid.

 

[VirOptimus]

Well, it isn't about wishing something to be true that isn't really true, it's about the knowing Truth with certainty on account of the action of grace within one's heart and mind.

Nope, its faith. Look it up.

 

[GenemZ]

That you dont understand the science does not make it into a religion.

Science is a description of the physical reality, denying physicsl reality is stupid.

Scientist have sin natures too... Religion takes on various forms of idol adoration. Some people worship money. Others may worship their natural gifts of intellect and refuse to turn that worship towards the one who created their intellectual abilities where it belongs. There is lots of arrogance and competition amongst scientists.

 

[VirOptimus]

Scientist have sin natures too... Religion takes on various forms of idol adoration. Some people worship money. Others may worship their natural gifts of intellect and refuse to turn that worship towards the one who created their intellectual abilities where it belongs. There is lots of arrogance and competition amongst scientists.

This tirade is irrelevant to the subject.

 

[GenemZ]

This tirade is irrelevant to the subject.

Actually it gets to the crux of the problem... How are we ever going to communicate if the wall remains?

 

[VirOptimus]

Actually it gets to the crux of the problem... How are we ever going to communicate if the wall remains?

Religion and science doesnt communicate.

 

[GenemZ]

Unregenerate scientists and God do not communicate.

Religion? Religion is man attempting to form a relationship with God on terms that men invent. Christianity is God bridging the gap between men and Himself.

Religion = man doing works attempting to reach God by man made rules.

Christianity = God does the work. Then man must learn the rules of that relationship that had already had been established by God's work.

 

[GenemZ]

Religion and science doesnt communicate.

What would you think of Jesus if you discovered He invented DNA and its functions?