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the self replicating watch argument

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Bungle_Bear

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.. what's more impossible?

An inorganic watch replicating itself?

Or, an inorganic watch suddenly becoming a living organism?

They are equally impossible... (that was the answer).
Why do you keep digging that hole? There are no degrees of impossibility. Things cannot be "more impossible" or "equally impossible". You should have used "likely" or "unlikely". It's fairly basic English.
Now, to get you off your jag? Seems impossible.
I'm done now, thank you.
 
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Kylie

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Jesus Christ, the single most influential man ever, taught that "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: ..." (John 6:44)

That is the problem. Our Father gives, by His Holy Spirit, some people the ability to hear and to see what is irrefutable Truth. These people who are drawn are the same who hate and repent of evil. If anyone doesn't want to repent of all evil, they can stay hidden in the darkness until death comes upon them, and then they will know that they loved the darkness because their deeds were evil. The love of the Father is therefor not in them. (John 3:19)

I have already given the proofs that I have experienced and witnessed. These weren't good enough and will never be good enough, because they are being disbelieved, ignored, or otherwise simply forgotten about, because that's how the "darkness" operates. I could feed five thousand men, not counting their women and children, with a few loaves of bread and a couple of fish, and afterwards gather up 12 bushel baskets full of food fragments after all those thousands of people ate their fill, and you could be there and the truth would still elude you, somehow, just like it did the disciples of Jesus, who had been there to see Jesus' miracle of the loaves and fish, yet still did not know that He had all the power of God and was going to raise Himself from the dead after being crucified, just as He foretold He would do.

The disciples of Jesus couldn't fully know Him until they had received the power of the Holy Spirit, after His Resurrection and Ascension. Then they knew full well Who Jesus Christ is.

Why do you quote the Bible at me? I did clearly state that I was after a source OUTSIDE the Bible, didn't I?

In any case, quoting the Bible won't convince me that the Bible is true any more than me spouting lines from Harry Potter will convince you that Hogwarts is real. So please don't waste your time or my time.
 
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mama2one

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The disciples of Jesus couldn't fully know Him until they had received the power of the Holy Spirit, after His Resurrection and Ascension. Then they knew full well Who Jesus Christ is."[/I]

because if they'd understood Jesus' authority, they wouldn't have been afraid on the boat during the storm and woken Jesus up

instead they might have taken a nap too alongside Jesus
secure in knowing they were safe with Jesus on the boat in the midst of a storm

(from a sermon heard recently)
 
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GenemZ

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Why do you keep digging that hole? There are no degrees of impossibility. Things cannot be "more impossible" or "equally impossible". You should have used "likely" or "unlikely". It's fairly basic English.

I'm done now, thank you.

I know there are no degrees to impossibility. In the literal closed in definition of the term itself. But, context makes one able to think outside of that box you desire to construct.

If I were to say, " its impossible to clear the snow off the road today?" That would not equate with the same force as saying it would be impossible to fly you to Jupiter in five minutes.

A fortiori.. If its impossible to this? Then certainly, it would have to be impossible to do that!~

I can understand your need for impatience being your shield. For, it seems impossible for you to admit to my logic at this point. For you already have maneuvered the conversation to make me look stupid. After all? That was your goal.

So, why admit to anything now when you can simply close your ears while remain appearing to have achieved that goal? :holy:

Thinking outside of the restraints of your etymological box you keep putting me in (as to be able to put me down with) seems to be where you wish to maintain it. But, keep in mind. I will continue to reason. For its not impossible to make a point to others who do not have the same axe to grind. After all.. agendas must be protected. At all costs. That is not impossible to see. If it were "impossible?" You would be on solid ground. You just want to use some debaters technique and run away.

:wave:
 
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PsychoSarah

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The complex cave systems are designed by the Father, through His Logos, and by His Spirit,
-_- though cave systems continue to form and collapse through observable natural and unintelligent processes.

just like the myrrh streaming from holy images that scientists can't explain,
-_- it's a hoax, especially the healing part. Like I told you before, if this liquid actually cured illnesses, someone would be selfless enough to go to a hospital and cure as many people as they could before they were removed from the premises. Or perhaps to a nursing home or hospice filled with dementia patients. Why aren't YOU doing that? If you don't doubt the healing properties at all, what is stopping you?

and so just ignore (unless the scientists are people of faith).
-_- no one in their right mind would ignore a genuine panacea, regardless as to where it came from. Even if your view of humanity is so low that you think no one is capable of sharing their "healing myrrh oil", are you willing to perpetuate that selfishness yourself? You have two cotton balls, that should be enough for at least two people at a minimum.

All that exists is of God, and God's handiwork, whether accomplished by natural or supernatural processes, everywhere.
-_- you'd never claim that god designs cars, because you very well know humans do it. Cutting down a tree wouldn't mean that I designed the stump, and likewise what developed as a result of any processes you attributed to a designer are not in and of themselves designed by said designer.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Rocks have design. What distinguishes slate from granite?
-_- differences in mineral composition and the fact that one is an igneous rock while the other is metamorphic (differences in formation). That items have differences doesn't mean that either of them must be designed, especially not if they aren't even made of the same materials.

Why do we have different kinds of rocks? Why not all one kind?
-_- because there is variation in the materials and conditions that exist on the planet. It's not like we are getting different stuff from identical conditions, dude.

Gems? What about them?
-_- it's just the difference between cooling that occurs slowly versus quickly. They are also rocks. Most of them are useless aside from looking pretty, and given that the god you believe in hates covetousness with a passion, it makes no sense for it to design them at all. It's like how questionable it is that birds are so heavily influenced by sexual selection. It doesn't help a peacock any to have that big, beautiful tail, but you believe that YHWH would be willing to design peahens to be so shallow that they won't mate with a male that isn't colorful.

Gold was designed to be distinct from copper... and on and on we go.
-_- these are elements, their atoms have different numbers of protons, etc. Which, by the way, nuclear fusion in stars creates different elements, which all stem from hydrogen. If all elements consisted of the same number of protons, electrons, etc., you'd have a point, but since they are all structurally different and continue to form via natural processes, you don't.

-_- not to mention that segment of the periodic table dedicated to elements WE invented. A rock found in nature made of Hassium would be as miraculous as it was unnatural, given that even the most stable isotope of it has a half life of 10 seconds. We see no such things.
 
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GenemZ

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-_- differences in mineral composition and the fact that one is an igneous rock while the other is metamorphic (differences in formation). That items have differences doesn't mean that either of them must be designed, especially not if they aren't even made of the same materials.


-_- because there is variation in the materials and conditions that exist on the planet. It's not like we are getting different stuff from identical conditions, dude.


-_- it's just the difference between cooling that occurs slowly versus quickly. They are also rocks. Most of them are useless aside from looking pretty, and given that the god you believe in hates covetousness with a passion, it makes no sense for it to design them at all. It's like how questionable it is that birds are so heavily influenced by sexual selection. It doesn't help a peacock any to have that big, beautiful tail, but you believe that YHWH would be willing to design peahens to be so shallow that they won't mate with a male that isn't colorful.


-_- these are elements, their atoms have different numbers of protons, etc. Which, by the way, nuclear fusion in stars creates different elements, which all stem from hydrogen. If all elements consisted of the same number of protons, electrons, etc., you'd have a point, but since they are all structurally different and continue to form via natural processes, you don't.

-_- not to mention that segment of the periodic table dedicated to elements WE invented. A rock found in nature made of Hassium would be as miraculous as it was unnatural, given that even the most stable isotope of it has a half life of 10 seconds. We see no such things.

Do you have a design? Is there an order to your thinking? Do you design your thoughts and how you are to express them? Do you have a designed goal for being here?
 
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Doveaman

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Demonstrably not the case, as complexity in and of itself has NOTHING to do with whether or not something is designed.
I did not say complexity requires a designer.

I said the complexity of a motor requires a designer, as is evident by the motors humans produce.
 
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Doveaman

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Design as purpose, intelligent design, is an unfalsifiable proposition.
If a motor can be reproduced or found that was not designed, this would falsify the proposition.
Intelligent design is inferred from evidence of intelligent manufacture.
A motor is evidence of intelligent manufacture.
 
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Doveaman

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An additional contention: designing a system which results in an end product is not the same thing as designing the end product. A person that designs a machine that makes shoes is not also by default the designer of the shoes.
If the machine was designed to make shoes, then the design of the shoes was built into the machine.
 
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Speedwell

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If a motor can be reproduced or found that was not designed, this would falsify the proposition.
Show me one. Then show me how you can prove it wasn't designed.
A motor is evidence of intelligent manufacture.
A manufactured motor is evidence of intelligent manufacture. What about a naturally occurring motor like the flagellum?

Design as purpose, intelligent design, is an unfalsifiable proposition. It cannot be ruled out.

When examining any object or phenomenon for the presence of intelligent design there are only two possible outcomes:

1. Intelligent design is inferred from evidence of intelligent manufacture.

2. There is no evidence of intelligent manufacture, so no conclusion is possible.
 
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GenemZ

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I accept your facts, but I reject your theory.
"Let God be true, and every man a liar." (Rom 3:4)

Excellent! Well said!
emo32.gif
 
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GenemZ

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Show me one. Then show me how you can prove it wasn't designed.
A manufactured motor is evidence of intelligent manufacture. What about a naturally occurring motor like the flagellum?

Do they realize that when viewed under great magnification how complex it really is? The planet earth from many thousands of miles away, seems like a simple dot in the universe, too.
 
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PsychoSarah

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Do you have a design?
Nope.

Is there an order to your thinking?
Only thanks to ADHD pills, and even with them my thoughts get pretty disorganized and unfocused.

Do you design your thoughts and how you are to express them?
-_- I'd never describe someone thinking as "designing their thoughts". Especially since most of your brain functions are not the result of conscious effort.

Do you have a designed goal for being here?
Most likely not; if I do, I am unaware of it.
 
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PsychoSarah

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If the machine was designed to make shoes, then the design of the shoes was built into the machine.
-_- sure, in a literal machine, you might put in a specific design (that could come from a mind entirely independent of that which designed the factory), but unless you don't believe in free will, any changes in the environment which are in some regard connected to animal life are not the direct input of the creator you believe in. Beavers make dams that change the course of rivers, for example, and this would result in a different erosion path than what would have originally occurred.
 
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PsychoSarah

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I did not say complexity requires a designer.

I said the complexity of a motor requires a designer, as is evident by the motors humans produce.
-_- motors aren't complex. Plus, I can polish a rock, and so can natural processes. That is, just because humans build motors doesn't automatically mean that nothing vaguely similar to a motor can develop in nature. And yes, a bacterial flagellum is only vaguely similar to a motor in that a part of it spins. That's all, nothing about the mechanisms of how it works are the same as a human designed motor, and the components of a flagellum are also very different.
 
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GenemZ

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Oh so......
And there lies in that final sin
That man should think himself so high
To know completely god's every whim
And reach above to grasp the sky

But all they shall hold is empty air
The knowledge of god they shall not reach
God did not put heaven there
For those who don't practice what they preach

Name one man in history that thought he knew God's every whim?
Can you name just one?

Who was that written about? Some straw man?

God when manifested solely in the essence of Deity is mysterious, consciously unknowable.. and beyond reproach by those who can only guess about Him.

We can only know about God what He reveals of Himself through Jesus Christ. His humanity is the only soul that knows God's every whim. Every whim that could ever be known by men throughout all eternity. For he is both fully man and fully God in One uniquely organized integrated system, consisting of both Soul and Deity.. designed for the purpose of His communication with mankind who was created in His image.

Deity alone, without also communicating simultaneously with His humanity (in Jesus Christ).. Would be beyond the perceivability of men. Deity existing in a dimension leaving men unable to have the needed knowability that men must have in order to know God on their level. To enter into knowing God in a manner as to become stabilized in possessing understanding of our place in the design of the Creation. The Creation God designed as His means to reveal Himself to the created.
 
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Bungle_Bear

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I know there are no degrees to impossibility. In the literal closed in definition of the term itself. But, context makes one able to think outside of that box you desire to construct.

If I were to say, " its impossible to clear the snow off the road today?" That would not equate with the same force as saying it would be impossible to fly you to Jupiter in five minutes.

A fortiori.. If its impossible to this? Then certainly, it would have to be impossible to do that!~
Indeed. But not more impossible ;)

I can understand your need for impatience being your shield. For, it seems impossible for you to admit to my logic at this point. For you already have maneuvered the conversation to make me look stupid. After all? That was your goal.
Was it? Or was it to demonstrate that your use of language is incorrect?

Thinking outside of the restraints of your etymological box you keep putting me in (as to be able to put me down with) seems to be where you wish to maintain it. But, keep in mind. I will continue to reason.
Your entire argument is "in context...." If you wish to use that argument, then let me point out the context - you are using a spoken convention in a written medium. That does not make your argument correct, it shows poor understanding of contextual use of language.
For its not impossible to make a point to others who do not have the same axe to grind. After all.. agendas must be protected. At all costs. That is not impossible to see. If it were "impossible?" You would be on solid ground. You just want to use some debaters technique and run away.
:wave:
Hello pot, meet kettle :)
 
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